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The Very-Many-Questions-Not-Worth-Their-Own-Thread Thread XLIII

Why do central heating heat pumps use water to heat the house?

Every house I have been to (all in the UK) that uses a heat pump to heat the house use the refrigerant to heat hot water, and the hot water heats the house, as per this diagram:
Spoiler Standard central heating heat pump system :

Note the radiators / floor heating are more likely an either/or thing

Every house I have been to (most/all outside the UK) that uses an air conditioner to cool the house use the refrigerant to cool the air directly, as per this diagram:
Spoiler Standard air conditioner system :

The whole of the second diagram is contained in the first two boxes of the first, the indoor and outdoor units. Everything else in the second is "extra".

If we forget the "Sanitary hot water" for a moment, the hot water based system seems to have two large and insurmountable disadvantages:

Thermodynamic efficiency

I have worked a little in refrigeration, which is all about maximising efficiency. While I have never worked directly with this side of it, the basic gist as I understand it is that while the free energy is "trapped" in the phase change of the refrigerant it can be easily moved about without loss of energy. As soon as it goes through the heat exchanger that free energy is in the form of heat differential and you get efficiency losses. The answer is to have as little insulation as possible between what you want to control the temperature of and the heat exchanger, and as much insulation around them both as possible. All that water plumbing in that diagram looks like a lot of insulation between the heat exchanger and the people, which will only introduce inefficiencies.

Engineering efficiency

In both cases you pump the free energy around the house in pipes and put it through a heat exchanger to transfer that to the air, either cooling or heating it. In the case of the water based central heating you are carrying it in the form of thermal energy, so the pipes and the heat exchanger are the same temperature. In the case of air conditioning you are carrying it as the phase change of the refrigerant. This has all sorts of implications to the engineering/home building front: A) Lots of extra stuff, including having all the energy go through two heat exchangers B) the size the the heat exchanger in room heat exchanger. Because the water is not that hot you need either under floor heating (which is really expensive to add at build time, and needs a lot of work to retrofit) or big radiators (which are not cheap and take up a lot of space). With refrigerant you can gave a very small heat exchanger for a large output. C) There is also the point of the pipes, water needs big pipes that need real building work to fit and possibly insulation. Refrigerant can be run in small pipes that can be fed more like wires than water pipes and they are at room temperature.

There is the question of "Sanitary hot water". While there is some overlap in engineering between the two systems, it is not obvious that this actually introduces any advantage to this system. I cannot find anywhere saying why on demand hot water cannot be provided by a heat pump, that seems the obvious way, something like this but with refrigerant rather than electricity going in.

The pure air ones seem really cheap, for example here is a 2.5 kW one for ~£500. If these work to heat a house why does anyone spend thousands on an under floor heating system for their heat pump? It is so obvious that there must be a good answer, but I do not see it.


Part this is legacy systems. In some places, water is already the heating method. It's just a fossil fuel driven system, and not a heat pump driven system. Given that this is already installed, converting to a heat pump is far less expensive than retrofitting to blown air system. In the US, a lot of places were built with hot water heating, and central air conditioning retrofitted in. This takes up a lot of space, and typically fills an attic with ductwork. But many places were also built with forced air, and retrofitting in AC or heat pumps is very easy and straightforward. Also, US housing stock tends to be young, compared to many other places. This means that more places were built with AC originally. And the US has more housing with AC in the first place.

An area built further in the past will have more hot water heating, as it's an older tech. The supply chain and local crafts people will know that better, and so that's what is available. Both for new, and refits. The US housing construction, and renovation, market is just so huge that all of the various options are readily available. Your second diagram is actually what is known as ductless mini split. And is a type of retrofit cooling/heating unit which takes up less space to install. But isn't what would be installed in most new construction, as it's really kind of ugly in the room. But a system is available which has that basic layout, except that whole house ductwork and fans are used to move the heated or cooled air around.

I don't think the water heating is as inefficient as you think it is. It's extremely common in the US. Although may be less so in newer construction. Which I see less of, so couldn't really say. Also, the majority of new housing construction in the US happens in the South, where air conditioning is the main focus, and heating secondary. So you aren't going to install hot water heating there now.
 
Part this is legacy systems. In some places, water is already the heating method. It's just a fossil fuel driven system, and not a heat pump driven system. Given that this is already installed, converting to a heat pump is far less expensive than retrofitting to blown air system. In the US, a lot of places were built with hot water heating, and central air conditioning retrofitted in. This takes up a lot of space, and typically fills an attic with ductwork. But many places were also built with forced air, and retrofitting in AC or heat pumps is very easy and straightforward. Also, US housing stock tends to be young, compared to many other places. This means that more places were built with AC originally. And the US has more housing with AC in the first place.

An area built further in the past will have more hot water heating, as it's an older tech. The supply chain and local crafts people will know that better, and so that's what is available. Both for new, and refits. The US housing construction, and renovation, market is just so huge that all of the various options are readily available. Your second diagram is actually what is known as ductless mini split. And is a type of retrofit cooling/heating unit which takes up less space to install. But isn't what would be installed in most new construction, as it's really kind of ugly in the room. But a system is available which has that basic layout, except that whole house ductwork and fans are used to move the heated or cooled air around.
If you have a hot water based heating system that will work with a heat pump as the source of heat then it totally makes sense to just replace the boiler with the external part of a heat pump and a refrigerant to water heat exchanger. This should be even cheaper than the £500 air-to-air system, as instead of the in room unit you just have a £50 refrigerant to water heat exchanger.

That is not the situation as presented by for example this video which I am currently reviewing, which quote air-to-air as about half the cost of air-to-water, and the thousands that I think they generally cost to fit. Also the few systems I have personally seen have had heat pump specific under floor or big radiator systems fitted to handle the lower temperature.
I don't think the water heating is as inefficient as you think it is. It's extremely common in the US. Although may be less so in newer construction. Which I see less of, so couldn't really say. Also, the majority of new housing construction in the US happens in the South, where air conditioning is the main focus, and heating secondary. So you aren't going to install hot water heating there now.
I am not making a statement about the magnitude of the lose, just that it is always against the air-to-water system. It seems to have only disadvantages, unless it is cheaper.

I git halfway through the video, and he started talking about radiant vs convected heat, and said at lower temperatures you get more radiant heat. That is so rubbish that I stopped, but here is what I got, in addition to the point about existing hot water based distribution systems above:

You need water heating anyway

A refrigerant to water heat exchanger is really cheap, that cannot be much of the cost of the whole system. Why this cannot be on demand rather than tank based is my question from above.

Radiators are pretty

No, they are not. They are big, and cannot be hidden away like a refrigerant one can.

Temperature varies

This is just a control problem, probably because the heat exchanger was TOO powerful and changing the temperature too much within control cycles. This is a we known problems with IT solutions.

Noise

I can see this being an issue, if you use forced air. But why would one need to use forced air with refigerant but not water? You can get a greater temperature differential, why would it have more need of forced air?

Noise kicking in and out

This is a different question. It is kind of required that the compressor start and stop, and this cannot be quiet. But the compressor needs to be nowhere near the occupants, any more than the flame does in a boiler based system.

Air movement

Same question as above, why is forced air more required in an air-to-air system?
 
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Not sure how it fits in, and if it's in all houses so, but my apartment in France was heated via a reversebile AC unit, and that thing really sucked the moist out of the air. It was really unpleasant (went easily down to 30%, where a normal range is 40-60%). Having heating with radioators feels way superior.
 
Does anyone know anything about computer scanners?

I have a Canon LiDE 400 flatbed scanner that I've owned for over a year and recently it's stopped scanning properly. This is what happened when I scanned nothing.

IMG_20240522_0002.png

I don't know what's causing that black bar to appear. It's preventing me from being able to scan anything that's A4 in size.
 
Not sure how it fits in, and if it's in all houses so, but my apartment in France was heated via a reversebile AC unit, and that thing really sucked the moist out of the air. It was really unpleasant (went easily down to 30%, where a normal range is 40-60%). Having heating with radioators feels way superior.
I do not quite understand how this could be. In both cases you have a bit of metal heated by a circulating fluid. How can one "suck the moist out of the air" while on heating mode but not the other?

It is much more common for reversebile AC to have forced air (a fan) rather than relying on passive convection, but A) I do not know why and B) that is not actually making it lower humidity, though added air movement does exacerbate that problem.
 
Heating via radiators also does to some extend, that's why there are humidifiers to put on them.
Don't ask me why there's such a difference.
The effect is definitely there, as many ACs also have a de-humidify option (which is quite nice in summer too).
 
The effect is definitely there, as many ACs also have a de-humidify option (which is quite nice in summer too).
When you are cooling water condenses on the heat exchanger, so it dehumidifies. That does not happen when it is heating, or more precisely it happens outside which is why you have to be careful about the run off when it approaches freezing,
 
I do not quite understand how this could be. In both cases you have a bit of metal heated by a circulating fluid. How can one "suck the moist out of the air" while on heating mode but not the other?

It is much more common for reversebile AC to have forced air (a fan) rather than relying on passive convection, but A) I do not know why and B) that is not actually making it lower humidity, though added air movement does exacerbate that problem.


I'll get to other things as I can. But the reason some heating systems dry the air is that they are using interior air in fuel combustion. And that puts the humidity from the house up the chimney.
 
and that thing really sucked the moist out of the air. It was really unpleasant (went easily down to 30%, where a normal range is 40-60%)

In NM we live year around with humidity levels between 8 and 20%. It is not so terrible at all.
 
Do the Mad Max movies offer an explanation for how it is there's such an abundant supply of refined petroleum in the post-apocalyptic future?

I've never watched one, but the trailers make it look like nothing happens in that future except people driving around in various gas guzzling vehicles.
 
Do the Mad Max movies offer an explanation for how it is there's such an abundant supply of refined petroleum in the post-apocalyptic future?

I've never watched one, but the trailers make it look like nothing happens in that future except people driving around in various gas guzzling vehicles.


They're not actually talking about that much fuel. The various settlements are around single oil wells. Over the course of months there's more than enough oil to refine into fuel enough for a few days of maniac driving.
 
I've never watched one
Start at the beginning with Mel Gibson. They are excellent. Don't expect realism or question any of the many unexpalned things. Just sit back and enjoy the action.
 
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Do the Mad Max movies offer an explanation for how it is there's such an abundant supply of refined petroleum in the post-apocalyptic future?
That is the central plot of 2, sort of.
 
Start at the beginning with Mel Gibson. They are excellent. Don't expect realism or question any of the many unexpalned things. Just sit back and enjoy the action.

There's even a Fighting Fantasy gamebook, Freeway Fighter, that's an homage to the Mad Max movies. I couldn't believe my eyes recently when a new member in the FB group complained that it was "too easy". That one is not easy. I've never managed to solve it - I keep running out of fuel and dying.
 
Start at the beginning with Mel Gibson. They are excellent. Don't expect realism or question any of the many unexpalned things. Just sit back and enjoy the action.

I'd not watch the 1st one anymore. It's too old and outdated.
Okay, might be me, because the 2nd was at the right time for me when I grew up.
 
If you have a hot water based heating system that will work with a heat pump as the source of heat then it totally makes sense to just replace the boiler with the external part of a heat pump and a refrigerant to water heat exchanger. This should be even cheaper than the £500 air-to-air system, as instead of the in room unit you just have a £50 refrigerant to water heat exchanger.

That is not the situation as presented by for example this video which I am currently reviewing, which quote air-to-air as about half the cost of air-to-water, and the thousands that I think they generally cost to fit. Also the few systems I have personally seen have had heat pump specific under floor or big radiator systems fitted to handle the lower temperature.

I am not making a statement about the magnitude of the lose, just that it is always against the air-to-water system. It seems to have only disadvantages, unless it is cheaper.

I git halfway through the video, and he started talking about radiant vs convected heat, and said at lower temperatures you get more radiant heat. That is so rubbish that I stopped, but here is what I got, in addition to the point about existing hot water based distribution systems above:

You need water heating anyway

A refrigerant to water heat exchanger is really cheap, that cannot be much of the cost of the whole system. Why this cannot be on demand rather than tank based is my question from above.

There's no need for a hot water storage tank with hot water heating. The reason many hot sanitary water systems have tanks is that the water is hot on demand, and it is a legacy system. Tankless hot water systems which are cost effective are a fairly new technology. While I haven't looked at any prices recently, they were fairly expensive. The benefit of a tank was that it had a large quantity of hot water on tap at any time. Now you can do this without a tank, with the new tankless water heaters. Or you can do this without a tank with a hot water heating system. But you go back much more than 20 years, and you couldn't do it tankless with a forced air heating system. Or an electric, or other non-water heating systems.

In much of the US south, home heating requirements are so low that electric heat is installed, as the installation cost is low. Now you need a water heater. Legacy was a tank. It can be replaced with a tank or tankless upgrade.


Radiators are pretty

No, they are not. They are big, and cannot be hidden away like a refrigerant one can.


Actually, many people like the looks of radiators.

Temperature varies

This is just a control problem, probably because the heat exchanger was TOO powerful and changing the temperature too much within control cycles. This is a we known problems with IT solutions.

Few houses are built with zone heating/cooling. It's extra cost in construction. So you're stuck with temp at the thermostat location.


Noise

I can see this being an issue, if you use forced air. But why would one need to use forced air with refigerant but not water? You can get a greater temperature differential, why would it have more need of forced air?


Central forced air systems really don't make much noise. It can be heard, it does not disturb most people. But not everyone has that. One room of my house was added on 20 years after the main house was built, and it has its own forced air heater installed in the wall. That's a little loud when running, but doesn't run much. And I can sleep through it.

There is a kind of forced air central system where there is a water heater and an outdoors air conditioning unit. Both heat/cool the air in heat exchangers in the ductwork. That could be upgraded to heat pumps fairly easily.

Noise kicking in and out

This is a different question. It is kind of required that the compressor start and stop, and this cannot be quiet. But the compressor needs to be nowhere near the occupants, any more than the flame does in a boiler based system.


Most of the outdoor ones I know of are louder than a forced air furnace. Window air conditioners are even louder.

Air movement

Same question as above, why is forced air more required in an air-to-air system?

The air is heated/cooled in a central location, to limit cost. And then has to be moved to living spaces.
 
There's no need for a hot water storage tank with hot water heating. The reason many hot sanitary water systems have tanks is that the water is hot on demand, and it is a legacy system. Tankless hot water systems which are cost effective are a fairly new technology. While I haven't looked at any prices recently, they were fairly expensive. The benefit of a tank was that it had a large quantity of hot water on tap at any time. Now you can do this without a tank, with the new tankless water heaters. Or you can do this without a tank with a hot water heating system. But you go back much more than 20 years, and you couldn't do it tankless with a forced air heating system. Or an electric, or other non-water heating systems.

In much of the US south, home heating requirements are so low that electric heat is installed, as the installation cost is low. Now you need a water heater. Legacy was a tank. It can be replaced with a tank or tankless upgrade.
It has been standard in cheap rental accommodation in the UK for more than 20 years to have on demand hot water supplied by a gas boiler. They are a bit rubbish, in that the faster you turn the water on the cooler it is, and if you like deep hot baths you are out of luck, but it works and it is what a lot of people have.

Now the electric ones are ~£100. I have not used one, but I bet they are similar. If you have a heat pump that produces 3.5 kW one would expect it to be able to produce water at ~48 C at the same rate.
Actually, many people like the looks of radiators.
There is nothing special about radiators, aka water-air heat exchanges, that you cannot do with refrigerant-air heat exchangers. They are both metal fluid filled containers exposed to the air. I think you should have more flexibility with refrigerant, as it is undergoing a phase change so it transfers more free energy per volume, or something. You could make refrigerant-air heat exchangers look exactly like radiators if you wanted, and they would be at least as efficient.
Few houses are built with zone heating/cooling. It's extra cost in construction. So you're stuck with temp at the thermostat location.
If the problem is that the system is turning on and off too frequently that is purely a question of the control system. If you increase the hysteresis it will turn on and off less frequently. Of course the room will vary more in temperature, but if that is a problem at the same time as the machine is turning on and off too frequently you have a far too powerful system.
Central forced air systems really don't make much noise. It can be heard, it does not disturb most people. But not everyone has that. One room of my house was added on 20 years after the main house was built, and it has its own forced air heater installed in the wall. That's a little loud when running, but doesn't run much. And I can sleep through it.

There is a kind of forced air central system where there is a water heater and an outdoors air conditioning unit. Both heat/cool the air in heat exchangers in the ductwork. That could be upgraded to heat pumps fairly easily.



Most of the outdoor ones I know of are louder than a forced air furnace. Window air conditioners are even louder.


The air is heated/cooled in a central location, to limit cost. And then has to be moved to living spaces.
When I say forced air I mean having a fan attached to the heat exchanger rather than relying purely on passive convection. I do not mean where hot/cold air is piped around the house, I have never seen that here. The options are pump water or refrigerant around the house.

It was the person in the video complaining about noise. I think that is because the system he used had a fan at the heat exchanger in the room.
 
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There's no need for a hot water storage tank with hot water heating. The reason many hot sanitary water systems have tanks is that the water is hot on demand, and it is a legacy system. Tankless hot water systems which are cost effective are a fairly new technology. While I haven't looked at any prices recently, they were fairly expensive. The benefit of a tank was that it had a large quantity of hot water on tap at any time. Now you can do this without a tank, with the new tankless water heaters. Or you can do this without a tank with a hot water heating system. But you go back much more than 20 years, and you couldn't do it tankless with a forced air heating system. Or an electric, or other non-water heating systems.

In much of the US south, home heating requirements are so low that electric heat is installed, as the installation cost is low. Now you need a water heater. Legacy was a tank. It can be replaced with a tank or tankless upgrade.
We installed our first tankless hot water heater for our house in NC in the 1970s. My wife's parents brought it to us from Spain when they moved back to the states when he retired. We have two in our house in NM; one for the kitchen and a bathroom and one for a separate bathroom at the other end of the house. They are gas driven. Endless hot water on demand from either one. They are pilotless, so you only consume gas when running hot water. They are wonderful and we have never had any issues wth them over the decades. Yes the initial cost is higher than buying a big tank system, but making that upfront cost will provide superior service and savings over time in addition to enjoying long hot showers. :D
 
We installed our first tankless hot water heater for our house in NC in the 1970s. My wife's parents brought it to us from Spain when they moved back to the states when he retired. We have two in our house in NM; one for the kitchen and a bathroom and one for a separate bathroom at the other end of the house. They are gas driven. Endless hot water on demand from either one. They are pilotless, so you only consume gas when running hot water. They are wonderful and we have never had any issues wth them over the decades. Yes the initial cost is higher than buying a big tank system, but making that upfront cost will provide superior service and savings over time in addition to enjoying long hot showers. :D

I can shower as long as I want with my 40gallon tank. It never cools.
 
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