Theology: Can the Devil have forgiveness?

[_random_]

What if the Devil never did anything that requires repenting....?

The Bible was written by people. The perception of the Devil as the Ultimate Douchebag is our perception. It could be completely wrong. What if God and the Devil were working together from the start? Evil people need to go somewhere (whether Hell or Purgatory or Gehenna or Bakersfield or whatever else it's called), and that somewhere needs somebody to run it. In the same way that handling your weekly trash doesn't make your local garbage collector a bad person, Satan could simply be the guy who decided to take the rather thankless job of cleaning up the afterlife's trash......

The image of Satan as Lord of Hell really comes from John Milton much more than it does the Scriptures, where his primary duties are tempting people into sin and making their lives miserable.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

What if the Devil never did anything that requires repenting....?

What if he's the personification of an attribute inherent to mankind? My perception is that there is not, and could never be, a Hell. Such a construct would be contrary to the all-forgiving, all-loving God. Without the possibility of salvation at any time, eternal damnation is not punishment, it is retribution, and punishment for the sake of punishment is what people often call "sadistic."

It's been postulated by theologians (as reflected most famously in Dante's Paradiso) that there are multiple "levels" of experience of Heaven; not a hierarchy of closeness to God, but rather the situation that results from different souls being capable of different levels of understanding or "holiness" before they are enjoying their utmost possible bliss. It could work in the other direction as well; the people we consider "bad," the people who did not follow The Word and did not repent, would have souls incapable of understanding the greatness of God while basking in His presence, and their impure [unrepentant] souls would be repulsed by it, such that being in the presence of such Holiness as God would be anathema to bliss. And thus they might as well be said to be in "Hell."

Evil people need to go somewhere (whether Hell or Purgatory or Gehenna or Bakersfield or whatever else it's called)

and that somewhere needs somebody to run it. In the same way that handling your weekly trash doesn't make your local garbage collector a bad person, Satan could simply be the guy who decided to take the rather thankless job of cleaning up the afterlife's trash......

An interesting hypothesis, surprisingly well-grounded in Greek mythology.

 

[_random_]

It could work in the other direction as well; the people we consider "bad," the people who did not follow The Word and did not repent, would have souls incapable of understanding the greatness of God while basking in His presence, and their impure [unrepentant] souls would be repulsed by it, such that being in the presence of such Holiness as God would be anathema to bliss. And thus they might as well be said to be in "Hell."

This view, expressed in Alexander Kalimaros' "River of Fire," is probably the most popular among Orthodox types.

 

[BasketCase]

So why do unforgivable sins exist at all? Why aren't ALL sins forgivable by an omnipotent and benevolent being?

Maybe they are. Remember, the problem could be that we humans wrote the Bible wrong.

What if he's the personification of an attribute inherent to mankind?

Very likely. If we are made in God's image, it's entirely possible we're a composite of both God and Satan.

My perception is that there is not, and could never be, a Hell. Such a construct would be contrary to the all-forgiving, all-loving God.

My interpretation of the Bible: after God created humans, humans started doing unexpected stuff such as eating The Apple. It appears to me that human beings outgrew the expectations of their Creator, in the same way that computer AI's tend to exceed the expectations of their programmers and then try to take over the world.

When His creations started surprising Him, it's entirely understandable for Him to add a FIREWALL to the system.....

 

[NetGear]

If hell is permanent, which is mainstream belief of x-ians then probably not. A believer can make the argument that god knows devil is damned because he's supposedly omniscient.

There were in the past and some sects that don't believe in eternal damnation. So in that case everyone gets saved eventually.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

This view, expressed in Alexander Kalimaros' "River of Fire," is probably the most popular among Orthodox types.

Very interesting, thanks! I'm not really sure where I picked it up, I'm not exactly parroting someone else.

My interpretation of the Bible: after God created humans, humans started doing unexpected stuff such as eating The Apple. It appears to me that human beings outgrew the expectations of their Creator, in the same way that computer AI's tend to exceed the expectations of their programmers and then try to take over the world.

When His creations started surprising Him, it's entirely understandable for Him to add a FIREWALL to the system.....

I wonder if the archangels had a horror flick called "I, Human."

 

[emzie]

What if the Devil never did anything that requires repenting....?

The Bible was written by people. The perception of the Devil as the Ultimate Douchebag is our perception. It could be completely wrong. What if God and the Devil were working together from the start? Evil people need to go somewhere (whether Hell or Purgatory or Gehenna or Bakersfield or whatever else it's called), and that somewhere needs somebody to run it. In the same way that handling your weekly trash doesn't make your local garbage collector a bad person, Satan could simply be the guy who decided to take the rather thankless job of cleaning up the afterlife's trash......

What does the bible have to do with satan?

 

[ghostmaker650]

What if the Devil never did anything that requires repenting....?

The Bible was written by people. The perception of the Devil as the Ultimate Douchebag is our perception. It could be completely wrong. What if God and the Devil were working together from the start? Evil people need to go somewhere (whether Hell or Purgatory or Gehenna or Bakersfield or whatever else it's called), and that somewhere needs somebody to run it. In the same way that handling your weekly trash doesn't make your local garbage collector a bad person, Satan could simply be the guy who decided to take the rather thankless job of cleaning up the afterlife's trash......

I was thinking along similar lines.

How do we even know who the Devil is? What he does or what he's done? What he's like?

We have only one side of the story. How are we to make an informed decision on any side of a two sided argument if we've only heard one side? All we have is members of one club telling us about the leader of the opposing club. How can we trust that to be an accurate honest depiction?

What if maybe the Devil's not even so bad? I mean can we really blame him for telling God to shove it? How many of us here, by the depiction of God from the bible, wouldn't do the same?

I think it's clear God and the Devil are two opposing sides. But God being the God of the bible, we know he gets very childish and dishonest. Would it be that far of a stretch to say he completely exaggerated and fabricated the image of Lucifer? If you had Gods mentality wouldn't you say anything to tarnish the reputation of the guy that called you out?

 

[Theov]

No, because there is no devil.

 

[warpus]

What if he's the personification of an attribute inherent to mankind? My perception is that there is not, and could never be, a Hell. Such a construct would be contrary to the all-forgiving, all-loving God. Without the possibility of salvation at any time, eternal damnation is not punishment, it is retribution, and punishment for the sake of punishment is what people often call "sadistic."

Half the stuff attributed to God in the old testament sounds contrary to the all-forgiving all-loving God.

My interpretation of the Bible: after God created humans, humans started doing unexpected stuff such as eating The Apple. It appears to me that human beings outgrew the expectations of their Creator, in the same way that computer AI's tend to exceed the expectations of their programmers and then try to take over the world.

Please, Adam and Eve eating the apple was the most obvious thing they could have possibly done. God knew about that one even before he woke up on day 1.

 

[Save_Ferris]

I don't believe in the Devil because of Kevin Spacey.

 

[BasketCase]

I think it's clear God and the Devil are two opposing sides. But God being the God of the bible, we know he gets very childish and dishonest.

I agreed with most of your stuff, but I gotta disagree with this. God's actions may appear childish and dishonest--but you have to remember that God knows a lot more than we do-- --errr, actually this might be a bad time to point out that I'm an atheist and I'm speaking hypothetically.

Anyway: God knows a lot more than we do. He's smarter, He's been around longer, He has more experience at stuff. So it's no surprise to me that His actions and motives might appear incomprehensible to us. If we knew what He knows, we would very likely blink and stare for a minute then go "oh yeah, that actually makes sense".

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Considering that God is almighty, loving and forgiving; is there a reason why Lucifer/the Devil/whatever can't also receive forgiveness?

Hypothetically, what if the Devil regrets his actions and repents? Would God forgive? Why/Why not?

The anti-divine forces just play their part in the world drama. There will come a time where they will be forced to change or will face destruction...
Suicide is really bad thing; it puts the soul under many thick layers of ignorance forces so its really unbearable experience but ultimately everything will be illumined so there is de facto nothing unforgivable as such.

 

[AlpsStranger]

I think suicide is demonized in afterlife-oriented worldviews for an obvious and somewhat hilarious reason. What if you believed that suicide was just fine and paradise was just a bullet away?

Hell, whether real or a construct of the priestly caste, is designed to add an urgency to religious matters. If nobody believed in hell then most of these discussions would be highly abstract and would interest almost nobody.

Instead, the hell fire fuels the zeal of everyone from Phelps to Santorum and acts as a sort of "bomb collar" against the waning faith of anyone who was raised religious.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I think suicide is demonized in afterlife-oriented worldviews for an obvious and somewhat hilarious reason. What if you believed that suicide was just fine and paradise was just a bullet away?

Well if one is materialist or such then one doesnt need to be concerned, I guess. But once you accept some religious-spiritual approach then you see that nothing is free and whatever you do has its consequences...

Hell, whether real or a construct of the priestly caste, is designed to add an urgency to religious matters. If nobody believed in hell then most of these discussions would be highly abstract and would interest almost nobody.

Agreed. But you dont have to only believe in Hell; quite often you can experience it here on Earth...

Instead, the hell fire fuels the zeal of everyone from Phelps to Santorum and acts as a sort of "bomb collar" against the waning faith of anyone who was raised religious.

I understand. But one doesnt really need to fear but rather develop insight and illumination. Then Hell becomes just like any other place.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

In The Screwtape Letters, Screwtape tells his nephew that an angel had "freely admitted" that if demons ever learned what love truly meant, "the war would be over and we could freely enter heaven". Of course, the fact that they didn't means that they completely misunderstood the point and spent a great deal of effort trying to crack the true secret. (On a side note, it took me a couple of reads to figure out what they mean, also). So, CS Lewis at least thought it was possible; at least insofar as that book describes his own views (which on at least one other point it probably doesn't).

 

[warpus]

What would happen to hell if the Devil was forgiven and ascended into heaven? Who would run it? One of his underlings? What if they all accepted Jesus?

 

[Arakhor]

I don't believe in the Devil, but in the case of someone like Asmodeus, I'd rather imagine that he doesn't want forgiveness.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

What would happen to hell if the Devil was forgiven and ascended into heaven? Who would run it? One of his underlings? What if they all accepted Jesus?

Well, Milton (or Dante?) was the one who came up with the idea that Satan runs Hell. If you define hell (as some do) as the state of being apart from God, I am sure it runs itself.

And don't forget, according to St. James at least, "believing in Jesus" is something the devils already do just fine, and that isn't going to help them.

 

[_random_]

Well, Milton (or Dante?) was the one who came up with the idea that Satan runs Hell. If you define hell (as some do) as the state of being apart from God, I am sure it runs itself.

It was Milton. Dante wrote about Satan as being imprisoned there. You have to wonder how those two would feel if the were informed of the extent to which their fiction influenced popular beliefs and perceptions of Christianity.