Those suggestions are not mutually exclusive, are they?
You yourself recognize that friendships saved lives. I'm saying that more friendships would have saved even more lives. Problem?
There are more of us than there are of them
- Thread starter Hygro
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You yourself recognize that friendships saved lives. I'm saying that more friendships would have saved even more lives. Problem?
Which is still putting the burden (in however much of a percentage that can be qualified) on the victims. You're the one who asked me for a reading that doesn't involve putting blame at the feet of the victims.
Besides, it's a completely pointless suggestion. The Holocaust still would've happened. You replied to Lexicus who specifically talked about preventing it. Not "could we maybe figure out how n more people could've been saved". n is unlikely to be a number that's important relative to the millions that did die (and the countless more that were traumatised), and certainly, it's on you to make the argument that a such a number of people could have been saved.
Cloud_Strife
Deity
Ah yes, the reasonable expection of people befriending those that do and would discriminate against them.
What's wrong with people, is this seriously the rhetoric we're now using? Why should anyone try to befriend a group that would do them material harm, as if somehow the onus is on the victim to prevent by sheer diplomacy their own discrimination? This is insane, nonsensical advice given by people out of touch, unmoored to the tethers of reality. This isn't bat country, this is cfc.
Synobun
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It's capitalist temporarily-embarrassed-millionaire creed adapted to oppression and social policy. The extreme outliers are heralded as an attainable independent standard for all. That one person in one area managed to do one thing is a clear indicator that all people in all areas can do all things, and any failure to reach that metric is personal and not systemic or statistical.
In other words, it's garbage.
Cloud_Strife
Deity
Pretty much, but it is what we have come to expect, is it not?
Lexicus
Deity
Maybe, but do recall that in many places where the impact of the Holocaust was felt the most Jewish people were segregated and apart (which is one reason they made easy targets for genocide, actually, despite the fact that they were mostly well-assimilated into German society). In Poland cultural segregation was inherited from centuries of history. Under such circumstances friendships were quite difficult, almost like interracial friendships in the Jim Crow south.
The other thing is, much of the Holocaust would have been impossible without foreign collaborators. In Estonia for example locals helped Einsatzgruppe A murder some 1500 Jews. Those locals had not "bought into" any Nazi nonsense, they were acting on hatred that developed indigenously over centuries.
Lexicus
Deity
"All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." - Winston Churchill
Patine
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You're effectively speaking of actual demographics as unified blocs in terms of expected beliefs and actions, of one mind socially and politically. You are using the style of reference and language of those you claim to oppose.
No, it is not. I'm not putting the "burden" on anyone. I'm citing what I think is rather self-evident truth:
This does not exonerate the murders. This does not exonerate those whose inaction let the murders happen. Nowhere does it even touch upon WHY there weren't more friendships or whose "fault" the cultural and physical segregation was.
This is entirely your own projection.
If fewer people had bought into anti-semitic nonsense of the Nazis, any number of things could have gone differently. They might have not come to power or they might have had different policies.
It's more about befriending people so they won't become part of a group that would do you material harm.
Does it not make sense for the victim to try and prevent their own discrimination?
Obviously this has no bearing on responsibility of the discriminating party.
Was this supposed to somehow relate what I said?
My point precisely...
Lexicus
Deity
Fwiw I couldn't really see the victim-blaming in your post. You phrased it as goyim having Jewish friends rather than the other way around so...yeah.
I'm sure there is an interesting point to be made about spatial distribution of Jewish people in pre-Holocaust Europe and all but I am not knowledgeable enough to make it.
I believe @Traitorfish not so long ago read a book on the history of the Jewish people, perhaps he could benefit us with his take at some point.
@Lexicus
Like I said to Yeekim, friendship is a two-way street. You cannot be friends with someone who doesn't want to, which means there is any amount of pressure on the persecuted to accept said friendship. This is, again, ignoring the actualities of Nazi Germany, but I've been trying to keep apart from that lengthy derail. I've failed as of this post
Yeekim phrased it ambiguously. It can be read either way without any stretch being made. That said, it's an easy mistake to make, and one that is encountered the Internet over. The problem is any amount of posts since haven't helped that in the slightest. There's too much focus on being defensive and not accepting that there could be faults in the suggestion - see below (first point, mainly).
Notably, this is also assuming there's a direct correlation with this friendship and their lives actually being saved. You saw me point that out and highlighted it, @Yeekim. Why didn't you highlight the corresponding counterargument that this also backfired. The Sound of Music isn't just a musical - this stuff happened unfortunately.
2. I didn't say it did. What I'm saying (now) is if that's the first self-evident truth that springs to mind when discussing how to prevent the Holocaust (even in passing), then that's ridiculously naive and ignorant of the history of the time. Like I keep saying, your suggestion literally already happened. There are also ways to reword your suggestion to put zero burden on the oppressed Jews at the time. It's not the matter that you didn't choose to do so, it's the matter that you literally haven't since. You've just kept defending your apparent truth.
Language is powerful, right? If I told you your sentence was a dogwhistle used by the far-right to suggest German Jews were their own downfall, would you perhaps reconsider said language? The problem is, people immediately jump to "you're accusing me of being a Nazi", so I normally stay away from such things and simply try to point out that that entire line of enquiry is a dodgy area. I'm saying that anything that goes anywhere near the responsibilities of any Jewish person in the Holocaust, that isn't done with a mountain of care, is an irresponsible look.
3. They didn't start out as publicly antisemitic! It took into the 30s for the Nazi Party to openly espouse such things, after they'd spent the previous decade generating political and social capital. But yes, at the very least this isn't putting any notion of the Jewish people need to be friends with people more to be murdered less. It doesn't matter who does the outreach, or who started the friendship, or if all the parties involved are completely benign and with good intentions. Firstly because we're discussing a historical event that can be never changed, that came about due to a multitude of variant factors. Secondly, because there are alternative histories you can propose that don't rely on German Jews being friends with non-Jewish Germans. There are plenty.
The Nationalist Socialist party spent years driving up hatred against minorities (not just limited to Jews). Their crimes against the Romani are also horrific (as with most demographics they were able to target). They established outwardly-positive social movements like the Hitler youth that served as both indoctrination of the next generation and a tool to spy on their sometimes more wary and cautious parents (and vice versa). The ostracising of German Jews didn't happen overnight, and I'm sorry @Lexicus but if you're going to commit to this you can't say they were both well-integrated and also they were segregated. The Nazi regime is estimated to have killed around 6 million Jews - a majority of the entire noted Jewish population of Europe at the time. You don't get there by capitalising on segregated aspects of an apparently well-integrated minority.
If folks want to turn this into a "what could have German Jews not done differently in order to avoid being exterminated", mere pages after the thread dealt with quizzing known marginalised CFC posters (marginalised in context to them as people, not necessarily to them on CFC), then please for the love of goodness I am going to ask for actual historical context. Otherwise I might as well just say "well folks could've fired all the Nazis and their enablers into the Sun" and leave it there.
Like I said to Yeekim, friendship is a two-way street. You cannot be friends with someone who doesn't want to, which means there is any amount of pressure on the persecuted to accept said friendship. This is, again, ignoring the actualities of Nazi Germany, but I've been trying to keep apart from that lengthy derail. I've failed as of this post
Yeekim phrased it ambiguously. It can be read either way without any stretch being made. That said, it's an easy mistake to make, and one that is encountered the Internet over. The problem is any amount of posts since haven't helped that in the slightest. There's too much focus on being defensive and not accepting that there could be faults in the suggestion - see below (first point, mainly).
1. You consider it a self-evident truth. There is no wiggle room to consider that it might not be a truth? I've already said that what you're suggesting already happened and the Holocaust was not prevented. So at best, all your suggestion does in this context is save some more lives. A unquestionably good thing, but in no way related to preventing the Holocaust.
Notably, this is also assuming there's a direct correlation with this friendship and their lives actually being saved. You saw me point that out and highlighted it, @Yeekim. Why didn't you highlight the corresponding counterargument that this also backfired. The Sound of Music isn't just a musical - this stuff happened unfortunately.
2. I didn't say it did. What I'm saying (now) is if that's the first self-evident truth that springs to mind when discussing how to prevent the Holocaust (even in passing), then that's ridiculously naive and ignorant of the history of the time. Like I keep saying, your suggestion literally already happened. There are also ways to reword your suggestion to put zero burden on the oppressed Jews at the time. It's not the matter that you didn't choose to do so, it's the matter that you literally haven't since. You've just kept defending your apparent truth.
Language is powerful, right? If I told you your sentence was a dogwhistle used by the far-right to suggest German Jews were their own downfall, would you perhaps reconsider said language? The problem is, people immediately jump to "you're accusing me of being a Nazi", so I normally stay away from such things and simply try to point out that that entire line of enquiry is a dodgy area. I'm saying that anything that goes anywhere near the responsibilities of any Jewish person in the Holocaust, that isn't done with a mountain of care, is an irresponsible look.
3. They didn't start out as publicly antisemitic! It took into the 30s for the Nazi Party to openly espouse such things, after they'd spent the previous decade generating political and social capital. But yes, at the very least this isn't putting any notion of the Jewish people need to be friends with people more to be murdered less. It doesn't matter who does the outreach, or who started the friendship, or if all the parties involved are completely benign and with good intentions. Firstly because we're discussing a historical event that can be never changed, that came about due to a multitude of variant factors. Secondly, because there are alternative histories you can propose that don't rely on German Jews being friends with non-Jewish Germans. There are plenty.
The Nationalist Socialist party spent years driving up hatred against minorities (not just limited to Jews). Their crimes against the Romani are also horrific (as with most demographics they were able to target). They established outwardly-positive social movements like the Hitler youth that served as both indoctrination of the next generation and a tool to spy on their sometimes more wary and cautious parents (and vice versa). The ostracising of German Jews didn't happen overnight, and I'm sorry @Lexicus but if you're going to commit to this you can't say they were both well-integrated and also they were segregated. The Nazi regime is estimated to have killed around 6 million Jews - a majority of the entire noted Jewish population of Europe at the time. You don't get there by capitalising on segregated aspects of an apparently well-integrated minority.
If folks want to turn this into a "what could have German Jews not done differently in order to avoid being exterminated", mere pages after the thread dealt with quizzing known marginalised CFC posters (marginalised in context to them as people, not necessarily to them on CFC), then please for the love of goodness I am going to ask for actual historical context. Otherwise I might as well just say "well folks could've fired all the Nazis and their enablers into the Sun" and leave it there.
One could easily argue it only happened because not enough Germans had Jewish friends. Maybe owing to Jews being too small of a minority or for any other reason - doesn't matter. Remember - technically correct is the best kind of correct.
Well, a question was asked and I answered it.
I'm not trying to seriously argue Jews could have prevented Holocaust by being more outgoing - that's preposterous, of course.
But I object to the notion that since trying to make friends could not have prevented Holocaust, it is a wholly worthless strategy.
And I object to the notion that merely discussing a good strategy for the victim means putting the whole burden/onus/whatever on them.
Lexicus was kind enough to point out that I did phrase it so as to deliberately avoid putting the burden of creating these relationships on the Jews.
That said, I have no attachment to the specific language. If you think I should have used even more careful phrasing, so be it. It's the point that matters.
All Lexicus did was say he couldn't see the reading of it I made. This isn't a "who has the most people on their side" thing, here.
And no, one cannot easily argue X, because you literally haven't argued X. You have made no argument to support the Holocaust "only" happened because enough folks weren't friends with German Jews. You haven't even given a single actual reference to known historical events in Weimar or Nazi Germany. You also keep separating "Germans" and "Jews". As you enjoy being technically correct, this is like saying Germans and Christians, or Germans and gay folk (also persecuted by the Third Reich). Please try and understand the problems with these kinds of groupings.
But ultimately, nevermind. You're reacting too defensively for any discussion about the merit of your suggestion to get anywhere. I didn't say anything about a "whole" burden, I was trying to illustrate the danger of putting any burden on them.
Therefore, I defer to my previous suggestion about firing Nazis and their enablers into the Sun. Or burying them all underground, whichever is more historically-realistic for the time.
And no, one cannot easily argue X, because you literally haven't argued X. You have made no argument to support the Holocaust "only" happened because enough folks weren't friends with German Jews. You haven't even given a single actual reference to known historical events in Weimar or Nazi Germany. You also keep separating "Germans" and "Jews". As you enjoy being technically correct, this is like saying Germans and Christians, or Germans and gay folk (also persecuted by the Third Reich). Please try and understand the problems with these kinds of groupings.
But ultimately, nevermind. You're reacting too defensively for any discussion about the merit of your suggestion to get anywhere. I didn't say anything about a "whole" burden, I was trying to illustrate the danger of putting any burden on them.
Therefore, I defer to my previous suggestion about firing Nazis and their enablers into the Sun. Or burying them all underground, whichever is more historically-realistic for the time.
Senethro
Overlord
Counterpoint: When were pogroms against Jews not in fashion in Europe in the 1000 years prior to WW2. Pretty much always one going on somewhere.
Lexicus
Deity
My impression is that many Germans had Jewish friends and that this did not prevent them from going along with the Nazis anyway. In fact, many people rationalized this to themselves in ways similar to how people today rationalize their support for Trump, the biggest one being that Hitler could not possibly be serious.
I may be reading your post incorrectly here but this is completely false. Antisemitism was arguably the one consistent platform of the Nazis throughout their entire existence. Actually, starting with the Nazis massive electoral success in the 1930 election, Hitler began toning down his antisemitic ranting for middle-class and upper-class audiences in particular, part of the party's overall "respectability" strategy.
As you note the Holocaust took place throughout Europe. Polish and Russian Jews combined make up, IIRC, 4M of this total or maybe even more. When I said German Jews were relatively well-assimilated, I meant in comparison to Jewish people elsewhere in Europe, particularly in Poland, where towns had existing "Jewish quarters", and where Jews had maintained a separate village culture (shtetl) for centuries. Germany was arguably the best place in Europe to be a Jew before 1933, which makes what Hitler was able to accomplish all the more terrifying. It was Russia and Poland which had the most notable history of pogroms and general antisemitism.
Also I should note that I mostly asked the question as a way of pushing back against the premise of this thread, it was not seriously meant.
Patine
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Not all Germans went along with it. That's a myth.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance_to_Nazism
Lexicus
Deity
"many Germans"
Synobun
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Was this supposed to somehow relate what I said?
Nah, not you. Cloud was replying to you but I was more thinking about whoever linked to the black guy who reformed a bunch of KKK goobers.
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