Things that make you feel old.

How many of you younguns here know "Things that make you go mmmmmm." ?
I do remember the song (by ... C+C Music Factory?) -- but fear that is (yet more) evidence that I'm not a young'un anymore.

Also not American, so my not remembering that Arsenio Hall hosted a talkshow is maybe less damning -- but did the song pinch the talkshow's catchphrase, or did Hall borrow the song for that segment?
 
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Another amusing thing that mercifully has nothing to do with technology:

"get off of my lawn" requires familiarity with owning a lawn to really work.

It still works (much like other grass-related idioms), and it may work again, but the land associated with having a lawn and the rate of home ownership in the UK alone are compounding factors that don't look to be letting up anytime soon (to the extent we have generational memes about it).

I have a lawn. I don't own it. I'm not sure when I'll own one.
 
Isn't the "get off my lawn" only used in suburbia? Which - apparently? - are typically owned by white people who fled the city centers.
It always was a confusing trend for me, since I love cities. But the formation of ghettos can explain it.
 
The thing about the 'burbs (which in of itself is a dated reference) is that it makes sense so long as they're relevant to that demographic.

If you no longer have people to fill that, it'll (increasingly) become something that's said just because it's said. It's already on its way. I just wanted to talk about it getting older!
 
Another amusing thing that mercifully has nothing to do with technology:

"get off of my lawn" requires familiarity with owning a lawn to really work.

It still works (much like other grass-related idioms), and it may work again, but the land associated with having a lawn and the rate of home ownership in the UK alone are compounding factors that don't look to be letting up anytime soon (to the extent we have generational memes about it).

I have a lawn. I don't own it. I'm not sure when I'll own one.

Does the "lawn" (loan ?) have anything to do with heritage ?

Here we often use "erf" in such sayings...

Probably medieval expressions.
 
but did the song pinch the talkshow's catchphrase
I thiiiiiiiinnnnnk it worked this way. Hall had that as one of his comic bits and it became so popular that a group made a song based on it. And then that song was briefly popular as well.


But I'm an old feller, and my memory ain't what it used to be.

And yes, to the follow up conversation, lawn-ownership itself characterizes a person as old.

Get off my lawn, you young people whose economic prospects are such that you'll likely never own an indefensibly large piece of property amid housing that mandates excessive consumption of fossil fuels and water and whose construction was motivated at least in part by flight from ethnic minorities! :old:
 
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You got it. I phrased it precisely so that it could be a quiz.

How many of you younguns here know "Things that make you go hmmmmmm." ?

I thought not.

And get off my lawn!

:hmm:

Way back, I made a smiley gif that features a sign, very long, waving grass, with the caption "I fought the lawn, and the lawn won."

Another amusing thing that mercifully has nothing to do with technology:

"get off of my lawn" requires familiarity with owning a lawn to really work.

It still works (much like other grass-related idioms), and it may work again, but the land associated with having a lawn and the rate of home ownership in the UK alone are compounding factors that don't look to be letting up anytime soon (to the extent we have generational memes about it).

I have a lawn. I don't own it. I'm not sure when I'll own one.

The only good thing about no longer owning a lawn is that I don't have to mow it.

I used to have to keep telling the mailman to get off the lawn. That <censored> jerk was too lazy to use the sidewalk, so he just walked across everyone's lawn. He did it to the point that he was wearing down a path.

I told him that I'd call his supervisor to complain if he didn't start using the sidewalk. If I could use the sidewalk when delivering newspapers (a job I had in the '80s for awhile), he could use the sidewalk.

Isn't the "get off my lawn" only used in suburbia? Which - apparently? - are typically owned by white people who fled the city centers.
It always was a confusing trend for me, since I love cities. But the formation of ghettos can explain it.

So can malls. You don't get malls being built in city centers. They're built on the outskirts, and then new subdivisions get built around them. There's one of them here that I'm old enough to remember before it existed, when that entire section of the city (including the subdivision and the other businesses) was some farmer's field.
 
Isn't the "get off my lawn" only used in suburbia? Which - apparently? - are typically owned by white people who fled the city centers.
It always was a confusing trend for me, since I love cities. But the formation of ghettos can explain it.
Development of suburbia in the US is much more extensive than that and cannot be explained by "white fly" only. As a matter of fact, everyone lives in suburbia nowadays in the US. When visiting Atlanta, Martin Luther King's old neighbourhood consisting in apartment buildings was essentially a ghost town.

I believe the main reason is mostly economical. Historically, the US was an oil country with a strong oil industry promoting oil-powered transportation solutions. I believe that is the reason why cities in the US are so much car-oriented. Oil is abundant and cheap, individual transportation is more comfortable than public transportation, detached houses are nicer to live in than appartment buildings, so let's go for it and everyone should live this way.

On the other hand, Europe hardly produces any oil, realized it was a strong sovereignty issue in the 1970's and went for alternative solutions if possible. Therefore oil is more expensive, there is a stronger incentive to develop transportation alternatives less relying on oil (such as public transit), requiring sprawling to get better controlled.

Usually people believe that's a matter of space available, the US being so big as a country and having so much room. But when you look at it in details, the US population is very unevenly distributed, and in the Eastern half of the country, the average population density is the same as in Spain. Yet Spanish cities are considerably denser. Obviously older cities built essentially before development of cars are denser than cities which developed afterwards, but then again, even very old US cities like Boston or Philadelphia sprawled much more than let's say Berlin, which actually developed later.

In the past 50 years, the most ambitious urban transportation projects in the US were mostly car-related (such as Big Dig in Boston). On the other hand, Spanish cities developed very extensive metro networks during the same period. The core European problem is that the more you need oil, the more you're dependent of countries like Saudi Arabia or Russia.
 
Development of suburbia in the US is much more extensive than that and cannot be explained by "white fly" only. As a matter of fact, everyone lives in suburbia nowadays in the US. When visiting Atlanta, Martin Luther King's old neighbourhood consisting in apartment buildings was essentially a ghost town.

I believe the main reason is mostly economical. Historically, the US was an oil country with a strong oil industry promoting oil-powered transportation solutions. I believe that is the reason why cities in the US are so much car-oriented. Oil is abundant and cheap, individual transportation is more comfortable than public transportation, detached houses are nicer to live in than appartment buildings, so let's go for it and everyone should live this way.

On the other hand, Europe hardly produces any oil, realized it was a strong sovereignty issue in the 1970's and went for alternative solutions if possible. Therefore oil is more expensive, there is a stronger incentive to develop transportation alternatives less relying on oil (such as public transit), requiring sprawling to get better controlled.

Usually people believe that's a matter of space available, the US being so big as a country and having so much room. But when you look at it in details, the US population is very unevenly distributed, and in the Eastern half of the country, the average population density is the same as in Spain. Yet Spanish cities are considerably denser. Obviously older cities built essentially before development of cars are denser than cities which developed afterwards, but then again, even very old US cities like Boston or Philadelphia sprawled much more than let's say Berlin, which actually developed later.

In the past 50 years, the most ambitious urban transportation projects in the US were mostly car-related (such as Big Dig in Boston). On the other hand, Spanish cities developed very extensive metro networks during the same period. The core European problem is that the more you need oil, the more you're dependent of countries like Saudi Arabia or Russia.
Above-ground light rail - sometimes called "streetcars" here - has only recently been looked at again as a valuable, or even viable, form of transportation. Before WWII, they were the way everybody got around every US city. Even cities we associate with cars today, like Los Angeles. There's a scene in Who Framed Roger Rabbit? where Bob Hoskins hops onto a passing streetcar and says something like, "Why would anybody need to own a car? The trolley takes you anywhere you want to go!" I remember my grandmother telling me about taking the streetcar all over the place when she was a girl, and she lived in one of New England's small cities, not Boston. On weekends in the Summer, she routinely took it ~15 miles to one of the area's seaside resort towns (which were hopping, in the days before air travel, with amusement parks and boardwalks and long beaches). By the time I was a little kid, the notion that small cities had streetcars, and that you could take them all over the place, sounded like a story from another planet to me. We had the subway in the city, but where my cousins lived in the suburbs, you couldn't do a thing without a car. They even drove to get to the park to walk their dog.

But people are looking at light rail again. I think Los Angeles has been reviving its streetcar service, and not just as a tourist thing. A few years ago, I read that they had opened an extension that went from somewhere 'downtown' (although they say L.A. doesn't really have a downtown) out to one of the beach communities, and it hit the ridership projections for the year 2030 in its first year.
 
Development of suburbia in the US is much more extensive than that and cannot be explained by "white fly" only. As a matter of fact, everyone lives in suburbia nowadays in the US. When visiting Atlanta, Martin Luther King's old neighbourhood consisting in apartment buildings was essentially a ghost town.

I believe the main reason is mostly economical. Historically, the US was an oil country with a strong oil industry promoting oil-powered transportation solutions. I believe that is the reason why cities in the US are so much car-oriented. Oil is abundant and cheap, individual transportation is more comfortable than public transportation, detached houses are nicer to live in than appartment buildings, so let's go for it and everyone should live this way.

On the other hand, Europe hardly produces any oil, realized it was a strong sovereignty issue in the 1970's and went for alternative solutions if possible. Therefore oil is more expensive, there is a stronger incentive to develop transportation alternatives less relying on oil (such as public transit), requiring sprawling to get better controlled.

Usually people believe that's a matter of space available, the US being so big as a country and having so much room. But when you look at it in details, the US population is very unevenly distributed, and in the Eastern half of the country, the average population density is the same as in Spain. Yet Spanish cities are considerably denser. Obviously older cities built essentially before development of cars are denser than cities which developed afterwards, but then again, even very old US cities like Boston or Philadelphia sprawled much more than let's say Berlin, which actually developed later.

In the past 50 years, the most ambitious urban transportation projects in the US were mostly car-related (such as Big Dig in Boston). On the other hand, Spanish cities developed very extensive metro networks during the same period. The core European problem is that the more you need oil, the more you're dependent of countries like Saudi Arabia or Russia.

Just wait till the oil gets more expensive.

Just wait till lithium gets more expensive.

Till nuclear.

Till rare earths.

Hell, they'll even commodify your entire body before you go and charge you ever more expensive drug treatments and surgeries.

Oh wait! They already do that!

But I bet they'll charge someday even more!!!
 
Thinking more about rail-v-auto transportation, I'm wondering how much population density and concentration might have or had to have played a part. Picking an arbitrary date, I see that in 1900, the US population was ~76 million, the UK and France had ~40 million people, and Germany had ~50 million. So just those 3 Western European countries had close to double our population, and of course practically every city & town in Europe is older than our oldest. Prior to the late 19th Century, most people would have had to walk across any city or town. In 1840, for the people who lived in one neighborhood of New York City or London or Paris, whole other neighborhoods of the same city might as well have been on the Moon. Glancing at a list of London's association football clubs, many of the dates of their founding seem to correspond with what I imagine was the first few decades of public transportation, 1880-1920. (There used to be a club called Casuals FC. :lol: That's awesome.)
 
Above-ground light rail - sometimes called "streetcars" here - has only recently been looked at again as a valuable, or even viable, form of transportation. Before WWII, they were the way everybody got around every US city. Even cities we associate with cars today, like Los Angeles. There's a scene in Who Framed Roger Rabbit? where Bob Hoskins hops onto a passing streetcar and says something like, "Why would anybody need to own a car? The trolley takes you anywhere you want to go!" I remember my grandmother telling me about taking the streetcar all over the place when she was a girl, and she lived in one of New England's small cities, not Boston. On weekends in the Summer, she routinely took it ~15 miles to one of the area's seaside resort towns (which were hopping, in the days before air travel, with amusement parks and boardwalks and long beaches). By the time I was a little kid, the notion that small cities had streetcars, and that you could take them all over the place, sounded like a story from another planet to me. We had the subway in the city, but where my cousins lived in the suburbs, you couldn't do a thing without a car. They even drove to get to the park to walk their dog.
The thing is that Europe preserved a lot better its rail industry than the US did. In Europe we have Alstom, Siemens and tons of subcontractors building high-speed trains, metros and light rail. So there is a whole economical ecosystem to feed in investing in such projects to fill up those companies backlogs. In the US, the rail industry basically vanished. There is still Bombardier but it's Canadian (and Canada builds more rail than the US). As a result, in France, there are something like 30 cities with a modern light rail network built during the 21st century and 6 which have a metro network. And France is nothing more than California in population and GDP. So it's as if you had a metro in Fresno or light rail in Santa Rosa.

But it's a good thing light rail is developing again in the US nonetheless. That really helps leveling up the quality of urban environments (and is good for energy transition as well).

But people are looking at light rail again. I think Los Angeles has been reviving its streetcar service, and not just as a tourist thing. A few years ago, I read that they had opened an extension that went from somewhere 'downtown' (although they say L.A. doesn't really have a downtown) out to one of the beach communities, and it hit the ridership projections for the year 2030 in its first year.
LA does have a downtown, it's only that the downtown is not what the city is famous for. Its specificity is that it is most famous for what could be considered as suburbs: Hollywood, Beverly Hills, Santa Monica. Anaheim. Hip hop fans will know Compton, Long Beach, Inglewood. And even the most famous avenues (Hollywood Boulevard, Sunset Boulevard) are actually suburban avenues! Therefore when tourists visit LA, they rush to those places and hardly see LA's downtown (that's actually what I did when visiting as a teenager). And indeed we end up considering there's no downtown there, but there's actually one!
 
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The thing is that Europe preserved a lot better its rail industry than the US did.
It's not just the rail system; all of our public infrastructure is a disaster (literally, in some cases).
 
Thinking more about rail-v-auto transportation, I'm wondering how much population density and concentration might have or had to have played a part. Picking an arbitrary date, I see that in 1900, the US population was ~76 million, the UK and France had ~40 million people, and Germany had ~50 million. So just those 3 Western European countries had close to double our population, and of course practically every city & town in Europe is older than our oldest. Prior to the late 19th Century, most people would have had to walk across any city or town. In 1840, for the people who lived in one neighborhood of New York City or London or Paris, whole other neighborhoods of the same city might as well have been on the Moon. Glancing at a list of London's association football clubs, many of the dates of their founding seem to correspond with what I imagine was the first few decades of public transportation, 1880-1920. (There used to be a club called Casuals FC. :lol: That's awesome.)
US cities undoubtedly developed later in general. However those population from 1900 you mention were largely rural (at least in Germany and France, maybe less so in Britain). In France, rural flight happened very late, from the 1950's, so cities have grown a lot then, and that was about the same time as when any French people could buy a car. So cities did sprawl then, but not as much as in the US. Paris is twice bigger now than it was in 1960 (it went from 6 million to 12 million inhabitants). When the oil crisis hit in the 1970's, this has triggered massive public transportation projects in the city which contributed to make it growing denser rather than sprawling.
 
It's not just the rail system; all of our public infrastructure is a disaster (literally, in some cases).
All countries have their strengths and weaknesses. On TV they were saying that 6 of the 12 most influential AI engineers were French mathematicians, they all work for US companies in Silicon Valley, earning millions they wouldn't even dream of in France. The future is being built in the US (and China) but no longer in Europe.

Europe just doesn't have the financial ecosystem to attract international talents and build the world of tomorrow. London had that a bit as the big English-speaking capital of the European single market, but since Brexit, concentration massively slowed down.
 
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Isn't the "get off my lawn" only used in suburbia? Which - apparently? - are typically owned by white people who fled the city centers.
It always was a confusing trend for me, since I love cities. But the formation of ghettos can explain it.
No. The suburbia that happened in the US after WW2 did so for a combination of reasons: because the baby boomers were being born; the US had (and still has) lots of empty land near urban areas; war production introduced ways to mass produce houses; an economic boom; government projects to increase and improve the US road network; and an unfilled need for housing that was not built during the depression. "Get off my lawn" doesn't show up until the 1980s (David Letterman) and doesn't gain momentum for a decade or more.
 
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