TIL: Today I Learned

[yung.carl.jung]

Interestingly, (or not), Bowie covered another Jacques Brel song, "The Port of Amsterdam".

For Kyriakos and other Borges fanbois.

TIL that Hernando Colón (the bastard son of Christopher Columbus) collected about 20,000 books and employed a large number of people to summarize them.
In something reminiscent of Borges' Book of Sand, the lost 2,000 page Libro de Los Epitomes was discovered after 300 years in a Danish library, after being incorrectly shelved by a 17th century Icelandic scholar.
https://www.abc.net.au/radionationa...hristopher-columbuss-bibliophile-son/11059998

 

[Ferocitus]

The only logical step they should take right now is move to a country that have enough ball to gives them asylum, which Turkey proves to betrays the Uyghur several time, when they somehow need to please their Chinese allies they just send them back to China. Maybe Europe or US.

If it's an issue of freedom 'n' democracy then it's got to be the USA!

 

[Lexicus]

It has nothing to do with their old "horse culture". That loss was going to happen anyway.

Already largely accomplished, I'd guess.

 

[Ferocitus]

Already largely accomplished, I'd guess.

Maybe the Ma Clique were hoping to re-group and to try to "free" Tibet again?

 

[Kyriakos]

Or maybe, just maybe, the chinese finally decided to pay us for those stolen "heavenly horses", so are stepping up anti-steppe actions. @Dachs.

About time too. Remove steppe-peoples from Anatolia

 

[H4run]

It has nothing to do with their old "horse culture". That loss was going to happen anyway.
It's about secession, violent means, and the creation of a separate Islamic state.
If that did happen (and it won't because you'd want over-whelming numbers for it to succeed) how would the Islamists treat atheist, communist Han Chinese?

I dont think so, Uyghur mostly dont commit religiously, not even in moderate sense, it is common in their restaurant to sell beer or seeing them drinking alcohol, praying once a week only on Friday. I even seeing them much more relax than the Hui who mostly more committed relgiously.

We cannot easily play the "Islamic state" card on every Muslim related oppression, it suppose to be obivius, dont give the air or moral justification to the oppressor please.

The conflict between China and the Uyghur seems to be older than the emerging of Global Jihad, it is rooted during the Qin dynasty.

However I will not surprise if now some of the unislamic and the moderate Uyghur population fall to the call of Global Jihad. I havent heard or read a case about it, but I think it is coming.

 

[Ferocitus]

I dont think so, Uyghur mostly dont commit religiously, not even in moderate sense, it is common in their restaurant to sell beer or seeing them drinking alcohol, praying once a week only on Friday. I even seeing them much more relax than the Hui who mostly more committed relgiously.

We cannot easily play the "Islamic state" card on every Muslim related oppression, it suppose to be obivius, dont give the air or moral justification to the oppressor please.

The conflict between China and the Uyghur seems to be older than the emerging of Global Jihad, it is rooted during the Qin dynasty.

However I will not surprise if now some of the unislamic and the moderate Uyghur population fall to the call of Global Jihad. I havent heard or read a case about it, but I think it is coming.

I'm not playing that IS card in quite the same way as it is in Australia, the USA and many other places.

There have been many clashes over the specifics of mosques in the cities; women are forced to wear veils in some regions. (I regard the argument that it is voluntary as complete BS. Men dictate the terms of the religion, and women comply. Grotesque IMO.)
They are counter-revolutionaries and therefore their claptrap "system" should be quashed. What you regard as an "oppressor" I regard as a comrade fighting against religious tosh and oppression.

Politics 101 - don't start a revolution in China unless you have over-whelming numbers. Uyghurs don't.

The techniques used against the Uyghurs are repulsive to me, but I don't know the specifics. There is, after all, a lot of misinformation and secrecy, and a lot of propaganda from many sides. IMO they're lucky that the favourite US tactic - war with indiscriminate bombing of civilians - isn't being used against them because most of them would now be dead. It is not going to be another Afghanistan or Iraq.

Incidentally, I'd find sitting for hours listening to Maoist BS torture too and I'm a Communist (Marxist-Leninist, Smoking, with Australian-Lithuanian characteristics).

 

[Berzerker]

All the research I've seen said that XPo-Ferens Columbus was a fanatical Roman Catholic whose main aim was to bypass Muslim traders in order to acquire enough wealth to finance a new crusade to purge all of the infidels from Constantinople and Jerusalem, and maybe burn Mecca to the ground while he was at it.

Does that preclude him from hiding Jewish ancestry?

Read the link in 6826

 

[H4run]

I'm not playing that IS card in quite the same way as it is in Australia, the USA and many other places.

Playing the "Those 3 million people are planning to create a separate state that rule by Islamic law" kind of card

There have been many clashes over the specifics of mosques in the cities; women are forced to wear veils in some regions. (I regard the argument that it is voluntary as complete BS. Men dictate the terms of the religion, and women comply. Grotesque IMO.)

So there are 10 million Uyghur population in China Xinjiang, and you heard there were clashes in some mosque, and you also heard that women were forced to wear viels, after that Chinese's government imprison 3 million Uyghur men and women to concentration camp where they are subjugated to systematic torture that includes water boarding, sexual harassment and brain washing. They also take their children to another concentration camp to be brain washed and indoctrinates them with nationalistic doctrine.

I really confuse the scenario escalates so fast, and which one should I praise, your logic or your humanity?

Anyway these are the hijabis Uyghur mother and daughter the mother was sent to concentration camp:

They also involved in a brawl in one of the mosque somewhere around China, here is the news about it:

https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/release-03292019155515.html

Politics 101 - don't start a revolution in China unless you have over-whelming numbers. Uyghurs don't.

Ok, some brawl in local mosque, some forced hijabi, and now the Uyghur plan to revolt. Ok.

The techniques used against the Uyghurs are repulsive to me

Yes it is.

they're lucky

What the heck....

US tactic - war with indiscriminate bombing of civilians - isn't being used against them because most of them would now be dead.

Should they thank their Chinese overlord instead?

Incidentally, I'd find sitting for hours listening to Maoist BS torture too and I'm a Communist (Marxist-Leninist, Smoking, with Australian-Lithuanian characteristics).

Beautiful man

 

[H4run]

It's made even more alarming by learning that the Chinese government is exporting mass surveillance to countries as part of financial aid packages. I.e. they lend money to those countries on relatively lenient terms if a comparatively tiny part of the money is spent on Chinese security firms being allowed to install cameras everywhere, laying the groundwork for state surveillance to become the norm. The idea is that if people in those other countries are used to their own governments spying on them then they won't pressure their governments to pressure the Chinese into at least pretending they are a democracy.

Instagram/Tinder/FB also help a lot with getting people accustomed to living in a goldfish bowl that resembles a Huxlo-Orwellian dystopia.

Yes its happened Takh

 

[Ferocitus]

Playing the "Those 3 million people are planning to create a separate state that rule by Islamic law" kind of card

Anyway these are the hijabis Uyghur mother and daughter that were sent to concentration camp:
(snips)
Ok, some brawl in local mosque, some forced hijabi, and now the Uyghur plan to revolt. Ok.
(snips)
Should they thank their Chinese overlord instead?

Three million now, is it? Keep adding zeroes to the end and everyone in the world will believe you.
And I didn't say that all Uyghur muslims wear veils of various sorts.

Those concentration camp survivors look like they barely survived sitting in a chair for hours.

It's an ideological battle and they are the losers, collateral damage in the modernisation of China.

 

[Lexicus]

Instagram/Tinder/FB also help a lot with getting people accustomed to living in a goldfish bowl that resembles a Huxlo-Orwellian dystopia.

I mean, surely Insta/Tinder/FB/etc provide a far more comprehensive surveillance network than any government-installed cameras could?

 

[H4run]

Three million now, is it? Keep adding zeroes to the end and everyone in the world will believe you.

Actually it is all start from the fact that I just learned that number from Forbes , so to say that I the one who keep adding the number is a kind of straw-man, if the reality is up to me, I want none of the Uyghur civilian to be in that concentration camp.

Those concentration camp survivors look like they barely survived sitting in a chair for hours.

It looks like that, but it isn't, we are not so naive when the Saudi try to fooled us in regards to Khashoggi's case, when they present us with layers of secrecy and stupid lies we know directly something really rotten happened underneath.

You know it as well as I do that the Chinese hide these concentration camp, they denied its existent in the beginning and shrug it off as a mere propaganda, but now after the truth reveal they claimed it is nothing but "reeducation camp", even though all the survivor make the consistent allegation of torture that include force drug induction, water boarding, sexual harassment, etc. What happened over there I guess can be equal or even more than that of Guantanamo, at least Guantanamo now becomes much more approachable and transparent than before.

It's an ideological battle and they are the losers, collateral damage in the modernisation of China.

It is not an ideological battle, the treatment of Turkic Uyghur Muslim in comparison with Han Hui Muslim are entirely different. The Hui get all the freedom of religion; they can fast during Ramadhan, they are free to pray in the Mosque, and all other basic religious freedom that the Uyghur are oppressed.

No it is not an ideological battle, it is a state oppression against its own people, it is a story about a super power state that posses a huge armed apparatus with a man power over 1.3 billion people, forced assimilating the Turkic ethnicity with population of mere 10 million that are not armed, not resisting, and are arguably more integrated than the counter part Han Muslim. The last one is really a lost, I hope the Uyghur able to preserved their unique identity like the Hui.

It is a state paranoia. There is a good Turkic ata sozu for this

Kedi gotunu gormus yara zannetmis
The cat observing his own ass, and the cat think he is wounded.

 

[Kyriakos]

I wonder how Erdogan and his own Turkey, protector of civil rights, reacted to this, Haroon.
And i am not saying that - obviously - as a snipe at you, but because it is a bit of a poetic justice of sorts (by which i clearly do not mean anything against the populations at the chinese province, who i couldn't have anything against - sadly turkish governments only understand violence, which is why they also only employ violence. I suspect it is why you had to leave Turkey for the time being. They just cannot do anything to China, cause it is a superpower.

 

[H4run]

It's ok Kyriakos, actually I leave Turkey to end my academic career, given being a research fellowship from one place to the other is fun, but I know myself, I'm old already, while I see there are so many young student who able to master 3-4 languages and possessed decisive academic advantage than me. Hence I went to a place where I can tip the scale and get myself a career before it is too late. But how I miss my academic career, that juicy 3 month holiday during summer, get paid by simply reading and writing something, what a day.

But yeah, Erdogan is no activist, he is just another politician. And he can scarifies them, and he did it already, to save his own position. How he went from the masses failed the military coup the first time in the Turkey (or world?) history, to losing election in decisive cities speak volume. I just hope they fix their problem.

 

[Ferocitus]

No it is not an ideological battle, it is a state oppression against its own people, it is a story about a super power state that posses a huge armed apparatus with a man power over 1.3 billion people, forced assimilating the Turkic ethnicity with population of mere 10 million that are not armed, not resisting, and are arguably more integrated than the counter part Han Muslim. The last one is really a lost, I hope the Uyghur able to preserved their unique identity like the Hui.

It is a state paranoia. There is a good Turkic ata sozu for this

Yah, yah. The US had people saying babies were thrown out of humidicribs at the start of the 1st Gulf War, WMDs were a lie. I don't believe the propaganda from either side.

And I don't lament the loss of the lifestyles/religions of the Uyghurs about as much as I don't lament the loss of herding techniques after the "Snowmobile Revolution", or the loss of those groups who used forced circumsion/genital mutilation, or the human sacrificers of olde. If I studied more anthroplogy than I did, I'd have more groups whose demise I don't lament.

The Uyghurs can believe any nonsense they like, whether its the wonderful ways of their lifestyle, or their chosen gods and spirits. However, if they use their religion/belief system for political purposes then they will get a political response from those who think it is dangerous tosh.

They are getting a lesson in realpolitik, on the streets of their towns, and in the re-education camps.
The lesson is that the CCP will not allow the situation to deteriorate towards another Kumul Rebellion. They have 1.3ish billion people to feed, house, educate and re-educate. The interests of 10 million are a minor issue.

 

[Lexicus]

Yah, yah. The US had people saying babies were thrown out of humidicribs at the start of the 1st Gulf War, WMDs were a lie. I don't believe the propaganda from either side.

And I don't lament the loss of the lifestyles/religions of the Uyghurs about as much as I don't lament the loss of herding techniques after the "Snowmobile Revolution", or the loss of those groups who used forced circumsion/genital mutilation, or the human sacrificers of olde. If I studied more anthroplogy than I did, I'd have more groups whose demise I don't lament.

The Uyghurs can believe any nonsense they like, whether its the wonderful ways of their lifestyle, or their chosen gods and spirits. However, if they use their religion/belief system for political purposes then they will get a political response from those who think it is dangerous tosh.

They are getting a lesson in realpolitik, on the streets of their towns, and in the re-education camps.
The lesson is that the CCP will not allow the situation to deteriorate towards another Kumul Rebellion. They have 1.3ish billion people to feed, house, educate and re-educate. The interests of 10 million are a minor issue.

This....is a terrible pro-genocide take and it disappoints me deeply to see it coming from someone I otherwise largely respect.

 

[H4run]

Yah, yah. The US had people saying babies were thrown out of humidicribs at the start of the 1st Gulf War, WMDs were a lie. I don't believe the propaganda from either side.

And I don't lament the loss of the lifestyles/religions of the Uyghurs about as much as I don't lament the loss of herding techniques after the "Snowmobile Revolution", or the loss of those groups who used forced circumsion/genital mutilation, or the human sacrificers of olde. If I studied more anthroplogy than I did, I'd have more groups whose demise I don't lament.

The Uyghurs can believe any nonsense they like, whether its the wonderful ways of their lifestyle, or their chosen gods and spirits. However, if they use their religion/belief system for political purposes then they will get a political response from those who think it is dangerous tosh.

They are getting a lesson in realpolitik, on the streets of their towns, and in the re-education camps.
The lesson is that the CCP will not allow the situation to deteriorate towards another Kumul Rebellion. They have 1.3ish billion people to feed, house, educate and re-educate. The interests of 10 million are a minor issue.

ok your post wrap it up, I think it is enough

 

[Ferocitus]

This....is a terrible pro-genocide take and it disappoints me deeply to see it coming from someone I otherwise largely respect.

No, its not pro-genocide. There is no evidence of mass execution, so calm down. I am pro-extermination of antiquated lifestyles/religions that get in the way of the other 1.3 billion Chinese people who need food and materials to survive.

 

[Synobun]

No, its not pro-genocide. There is no evidence of mass execution, so calm down. I am pro-extermination of antiquated lifestyles/religions that get in the way of the other 1.3 billion Chinese people who need food and materials to survive.