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Toku Deity Raging Barbs

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Pangaea, Feb 3, 2021.

  1. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Working my way up to optics... If the barbs haven't held the AIs back alot I'm sure I can write the game off as a loss right after AI contact and assessment.
    Will post an overview once I get there, here is a small teaser on the way!
    Spoiler :

    I tried the naming convention of @Pangea and it did work! Not only this fight, but a later fight too, when I just had my galley on sleep, and the fogbuster on "sentry land", and a barb galley just suprised me by attacking the immortal boat again in 10 turns or so.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG
    Another one came down from the north, on the eastern shores. :(
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG
    Built a trireme and a workboat from Osaka, and even though I forgot to rename it to something cool, it did do the job! I attacked to get more xp, it's so sweet if you can get a trireme or caravel to 5xp and get flank1+navigation1.
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG
     
  2. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T150 :

    This feels late!
    I tried desperately to bump commerce up, but it was so incredibly slow.
    The two scientists that I where in such a hurry to get out have been twiddeling thier thumbs for a while now. Clearly I put too much emphasis on GPGeneration. I could have easily grown both second and third city way more efficiently earlier in the game, if I could have forseen that optics would came so late.
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG

    Direct contact with Isabella w/o having to move boats, I get so glad when she doesn't have compass, that means I can get math+alpha+calendar easily. I checked her EP spending and saw she was putting alot of points on me, so I was afraid that she was also isolated, but I should have known that since she is willing to trade away math, she is for sure not isolated.
    The happines was shortlived, since she wasn't even willing to give me meditation for compass. T_T
    So I put as much beakers as I can into math and hope for the best...
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG

    And YES! It did work, I got both!
    Now I fiddle around tiles abit, making sure I land at 50g, because I have whipped a trireme at 19/50 on the western shore, overflow into a workboat for that lovely island, and that trireme I want to upgrade and send west.
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG

    Capital just finished it's slow-building of a settler, and that sprinted on the road up northwest, and then next turn boarded that immortal galley set for the island.
    Workboat has now finished and will be moving for the fish there and the trireme is upgraded, the scientist is boarding but he will likely vanish long before he is relevant. Have not been able to get any explorer out.. :/ I should have built a scout way earlier for only 15 hammers, that could have done fogbusting duty and boarded now.
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG
    Before and after settlement of the island.
    +10 commerce and only +8 upkeep, settling this island was a win all along. I should probably have made sure to settle it earlier, perhaps sacrificing some of those capital grassland cottages growth.
    Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG

    Civ4ScreenShot0012.JPG
    The GSCi who where strolling through Isabella encounter Boudica, likely a spy in some of Isabellas cities because I don't see any units. And OoOoooooOh YEAH she can give me something!
    She is almost finished with machinery though, only willing to give me 85g for it.
    Civ4ScreenShot0014.JPG

    But who can complain when you get calendar?! I get some sweet cash to put the 1-3 turns I need to self-tech into astro too.
    I do hope that Isabella will be able to hold her own a while longer so I can join Boudicas lovely fiesta though, but with walls and longbows abundant, it should work!
    Civ4ScreenShot0016.JPG
     

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  3. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Up at AI contact now, have met most of them. Exciting!
    Spoiler T154 :


    Newly settled Kagoshima is getting the loving attention of all four workers. <3
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG

    I spot some other AIs culture in the fog, so I trade optics for currency+gold with Boudica first before meeting them, to not have that trade count toward their WFYABTA counter.
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG

    Then I meet Capac who has paper and is looking quite advanced. He knows Isabella but not Boudica. I gift him 10g to get him to pleased.
    He is about half-way through optics, because he wants me to add 100g in the trade aestethics<->optics.

    Civ4ScreenShot0013.JPG
    His map didn't help me much toward circumnavigation, but it was still nice.
    This dude has hogged 4 religions. And a ton of wonders. He will be a dangerous rival. :|
    The only weakness I can spot so far, is that he doesn't have any happy-resources. I must remember to not give him such if I can help it.
    Civ4ScreenShot0014.JPG
    Juda is the AP religion. He has a double-shrine city too. :D
    Civ4ScreenShot0015.JPG
    I meet two other AIs with one caravel next, Joao and Monty who are at each others throats. Joao has built a ton of wonders too, Monty has managed to snag GLH though, and he is up at 13 cities! Both these feel like they are dangerous too.
    Civ4ScreenShot0017.JPG

    Worst enemies with each other, but Joao also dislikes that Monty declared war on his friend, so the last unknown AI are connected to these guys somehow.
    They are all in Islam too, Joao made a beeline for the last religion after Capac stole all the others. :D
    Civ4ScreenShot0018.JPG
    I reach astro, and man ooooh man monty has developed a large empire. He will become absolutely crazy.
    By some strange luck though, none of his 13 cities seems to have struck iron, so I trade my iron away for _everything_ and Monty smiles and think it's fair!
    I also sell my resources to the others for cash, giving Capac wheat and not wine, as happines is almost certainly his bottleneck and not health.
    I also get marble+4gpt from Joao for clam, which is awesome, that way my workers can continue to chop and I can delay masonry a while longer going straight for litterature.
    Civ4ScreenShot0020.JPG

    I had hopes to get feudalism from Boudi, by giving her aestethics and CoL which I could get from Joao.
    Before the trade, I make sure to open borders with Monty, as he will hate me for trading with Joao.
    Next turn, CoL+Aestethics is not enough for boudi, and T154 she allready has teched CoL herself. :/
    Civ4ScreenShot0028.JPG

    I got Juda a few turns ago, and this turn I got Islam in capital. I think going for Islam is the wisest as it will help please SuperMonty, Capac is likely to be happy enough with me being in HR.
    Not really sure what to tech, noone has guilds yet so I would love to go there. But I didn't get feudalism and I'm abit hesitant to give away astro right away.
    Going masonry->monotheism would be one option, so I can go into OR and start spreading islam. But I would like to do a double-swap to Bur+OR and I don't have CS yet. Capital is abit busy, having to both finish a forge it has started, and a settler it's working on, so adding a monastery by going meditation I'm not so sure about.. Perhaps if I start whipping, but not sure I want to do that either. :|
    Think I'll ignore failgold from heroic and just finish it asap and have Osaka start to spam galleons and units, I want an early attack.
    Civ4ScreenShot0032.JPG

     
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  4. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    @krikav

    Spoiler :

    I'm like 50T ahead of you, but i can't read your last update because I've still only met Izzy! I made a faulty assumption that the AI would get optics and meet ME on this map. I settled a weird city on the east coast for the sole purpose of meeting Izzy with a border pop. I got some decent trades out of her, but couldn't get the important stuff like Construction, Engineering and Guilds later. Anyway, i opted to go the Aesthetics > Lit route and built TGL. Tech pace seemed slow based on wonders being built so i went for Lib and actually got it around 1100!, but my Lib options were pretty weak because i didn't dare delay it. It was basically a choice between PP, Nationalism, and GP and i thought that was pretty easily PP since it gave me a research boost and opened up a Chemistry bulb. It's also on the way to rifles later and i would like to take advantage of Toku's rifles eventually.

    I had to self-tech all of the stuff leading up to Chem since Izzy wouldn't trade it to me and i just double-bulbed it around T200. I'm still teching pretty slow so Steel will take awhile (I think it's 10-12 turns at 100% + i don't have much gold) and i still don't have Optics or Astro so i can't even invade when i get Steel. I'll probably need some good fortune to win from here. I think the AI are slow and I've seen a lot of GGs spawn in the game, but i think i need somebody to meet me soon so i can trade for Optics and maybe even Astro while i tech Steel and build some cannons.

    I would post some pics or a save, but i don't have access to them atm.

    If i were to replay this map i would take the Optics route so I'm interested to see if you can make that work.

     
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  5. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Izuul
    Spoiler :

    Oh, I hope you meet them soon so you can read up!
    In my T150 update, there is only one more AI except for Bella.
    I met the last guy just recently.
    Techpace seem abit slow in my game too, which is really nice. Perhaps the AIs where really set back by barbs too?

    Things does not seem hopeless at all, but there are some big causes for concern too. All in all, much more interesting than I dared to hope for when I snailed my way to optics T146. :)
     
  6. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    It's been some days, so I don't remember what the map looked like, and never knew what AIs are present anyhow.

    To T60 so far. We're alive! :dance:
    Spoiler :
    Believe I went SW with the starting warrior, because it looked like there was coast east and maybe south, so much of that would be covered once borders expanded. Settled in place. Warrior was parked in the west, without much exploration, for fogbusting. Not many tiles, but at least the area is clear, apart from two tiles in the very south. First self-produced warrior actually went down there. Both to see for food, and to make sure our south is clear. Still some tiles unfogged in the east, but a later warrior takes care of that.

    So far barbs have only come from the north, in a nice train through the forest there. It's been rough, but we've been able to handle it so far. A few losses, but not many. Most annoying was losing first a 70% defensive fight, and then the 60% counter fight too, entirely losing fogbusting to the north.

    Difficult to know what starting techs are best here, because there is so much we need. I went Agriculture first for the wet wheat. Decided AH next would be suicidal, I needed :hammers:, and the pig could be farmed. After Mining I went Hunting->Archery. It was bound to be needed. And barbs kept coming into the NW tiles anyway, so the pig was dangerous. Barbs ruined a mine, but otherwise we've coped okay I think. Have had to counter them a few times, though, and this chance was probably overly risky, but this time it turned out okay. Phew!!
    Happy Toku risky fight.jpg

    Was producing a settler before this archer came out, but had to get out an archer instead, because a train kept coming at us. First city was therefore quite late, almost 2000BC in the SE. Next city went SW. Both close to seafood and somewhat protected from the dangerous north.

    Happy Toku-first city.jpg

    Went directly into another settler there, which I believe was 2-popped. OF went into a worker, which was chopped out. Then another archer (we had a barracks quite early, when there was a brief lull in barb assaults).

    Sad to get BW and not see a single blob of copper. Not near our capital, nor anywhere else we have discovered. Could be something further north, but I can't get there yet.

    Next it was again a choice between AH and something else, like Pottery. I went for the latter. Economy is already a bit wonky, and the pig can wait. But once the fogbuster in the NW was able to dare himself into the naked desert, and spotted another pig, it was easier to go for AH next ahead of Writing. Will probably put a city there, maybe on the green hill to catch Wine later. Don't like to settle on a spot like that, ideally, because it kills a forest and an otherwise quite nice hill tile, but it makes most sense here I think -- unless we see something better in the area.

    Happy Toku-pig spotted.jpg

    Surprisingly that warrior up north won the fight. He had gone north in the forest, risking some now-unfogged tiles further south for a turn, to be safer in the forest once he moved SW (where he is now). But I was sure he was lost. Okay, it's a 60% winning fight, but those still feel lucky with the way the RNG tends to work in this game :lol: (myth, feelings, biased memory, whatever one calls it, it always feels risky to take on fights with marginal winning odds).

    Thankfully the barb archer took on this fight against our experienced archer in the forested hill. Otherwise the new city would have been in risk, and I'd probably have had to chop out an archer instead of a workboat.
    Happy Toku-archer fight to the death.jpg

    Sadly a spear has come from the north now, the first one, so the warrior (still injured from before) has had to run away. No chance to win that one. But I'm also able to move out some archers now, including our top dude. He's perhaps a bit oddly promoted, because I wanted diversity in countering warriors and archers that were trying to ruin our tiles, primarily that farmed pig.

    Happy Toku-T60 map overview.jpg
    Very early, a warrior in the east spotted borders, which really surprised me because I thought this was a total isolation map. Should be possible to make contact there, with a city e.g. on the PH. There is also land or perhaps more likely an island in the NW. I can see the outlines of a tile there, and the crab can't be worked from our continent.

    The area feels a bit safer now, but we need to deal with that blasted spear up north, and then to fogbust the rest of the land. Hopefully we don't get more spears and then axes, because they are pretty rough to handle with only archers, especially if they bypass us.

    Next task is to get up some cottages. We need to build an economy here, and I don't see any commerce apart from coast tiles. Later there is the wine, and marble, but the only way to grow the economy in the near future is via cottages.

    With that in mind, perhaps a case can be made for settling a resource-less city directly south, but think I'll put it by the NE clam, or maybe the wine-pig. Need a bit more info first. And may have to postpone that fourth city anyway. Not sure we can handle it right now. Awkward to get the marble within workable area now, but I wanted that clam in inner ring (and the jungle was spreading like crazy over there).

    Now then... what to do with that blasted border in the east? Do I just ignore it, or put a city there and put an explore boat over? :undecide:

    Edit: Stats at T60. 15 kills!
    Happy Toku-T60 stats.jpg
     

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    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
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  7. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Pangea Mmmh, It looks like you too got the full deity raging barb experience too, with a completely wrecked economy as a result! :D That was nice in addition to already slow Toku.
    I'm already eager to get the game fired up again soon!

    Spoiler :

    Regarding the culture outline.. I didn't find time to do it, but one other option for those circumstances is to get a chariot to xp5 and promote flank1->vision, could be enough to put it on the hill, or perhaps put it in a galley?
     
  8. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    @krikav
    Spoiler :
    Funny you should mention that, because I actually have a chariot like that. Could have re-arranged units, and certainly thought about it, but I've kept him up north. To be honest, I didn't WANT to make contact. Will probably lose anyway, and I wanted to treat it as a full isolation experience. Toku must stay happy...


    Played to 1AD. Not looking great :-/
    Spoiler :
    Did indeed get the full raging barb experience, and they sure came at us in droves! But the continent is now under control. Maybe helped by a barb city spawn up north, though by that we pretty much had it under control anyway.

    However, the economy has been at a snail's pace. Despite relatively few units and some cottages in development, and only 5 cities, we were breaking even at 30%. At 1AD I have recently gotten... Math. Do have Monarchy too, though, so the good news is that the capital can grow, and we have hooked up the only happy resource on the continent. Don't indulge too much...

    Kept thinking about putting a city down south to help with cottages, but kinda glad I didn't. Would have tanked the economy. Wish I knew that horse was present, though. Could have put that city 1S and had wine in second ring. By then it should have a library anyway. Right now it has no hammers, which is why that lighthouse is only halfdone. It's working on the 2nd GS and is food neutral when the capital took back the pig.

    Think I'll save the remaining forests for when we need to produce an army. Just queued up a galley in eastern clam. May actually whip it, and then check out that crab location. Probably just an island, but could be a nice settling location, maybe even in the short term. Haven't had time for any diversions so far. Simply needed to crawl forward while working what little commerce we could gather, and some scientists here and there. Happy cap of 4 is painful :(
    Happy Toku-1AD map overview new.jpg

    Waited a long while before releasing the first GS from the capital. Until the next city would have popped a GS, only to save 1g unit maintenance for a while longer. Here the capital has both food sources again (a while it had none), and can grow quickly while producing more warriors for HR happiness. Seems like the only way here.

    Happy Toku-1AD capital.jpg

    Some more barbs dropped by, including an axe and another spear. The experienced archer unfortunately died. He had 87% win chances :( But at least the HE is unlocked.

    Doesn't show below, but we also have a vision chariot up north. He got 2 XP from killing a warrior. A barb city up north, but it looks horrendous. Maybe there is ocean seafood, but I haven't bothered to look.

    Happy Toku-1AD stats.jpg

    Kinda feel like it's a loss in waiting, but I shall continue a bit longer, see when we can get Astro. Looked at building an Academy, but the third GS would have been too late, almost a T150. Currently the 2nd GS will arrive in T129, which is nice timing -- if we are ready for Astro then. We have a lot of techs to get through, so it looks very unlikely I'm afraid. Extremely unlikely actually. Not really thought that far ahead, just tried to make the best of our slim chances on this deserted island, with only some forgotten pirate wine bottles to cheer us up.

    :cheers:

    Think krikav had a 1AD post, so I'll go and read that now. And wipe away tears from seeing how badly you beat my attempt into the ground!
     

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  9. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Aye, you sure smashed my lot deep into the ground.

    :deadhorse:
     
  10. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler :

    Raging barbs is really tough it seems!

    That trick by making a wall of units to disturb the pathfinding is very good though. That kept the barbs that had already spawed just marching around, and no new barbs spawned.
    I learned that trick either from a micro-challenge that Fippy had done, where Hannibal where to build TGW and land some elephants in next to Rome.
    Or if it was the imfamous Mao map in the diety isolation workshop thread.

    Not 100% sure it was optimal though, having units up there just standing costed me both upkeep and supply, but when one lets the barbs attack, they tend to be dissobedient, not suiciding into your strong archers, but instead marching around ruining the party completely.

     
  11. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T167 :


    I finished masonry first, then I saw that Boudi didn't have meditation, which I need for philosophy later on anyway, so I teched that and got a lovely 70g for it.
    Then I met the most beautiful and lovely gentleman ever, with deals I couldn't hope to dream about!
    Just look at the guy!
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG

    I give Churchill priesthood, aestethics, compass and 15g to get feudalism (which I had a turn into since that botched try with boudi), that way I have currency left as a trading chip. Hurts to not get his gold though.

    Next turn, Churchil does have litterature, which he must have 1-turned because I cannot figure out what trade he could have pulled to get it if not.
    I flip feudalism to Capac for construction+60g+revolt to slavery.
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG

    T159 Joao asks me for Astro, No can do MrBigHat, you figure it out yourself!
    My boats meet at T160, the one moving westwards had to move north for alot of turns, getting across Montys enormeous continent which was wierdly shaped.
    But I do get circumnavigation which is a huge relief. This looks like a map where naval warfare will play a big role.
    I wonder if Agg Samurais promoted to CR3 and upgraded to grenadiers could be something similar to Ragnars berserkers? Need to figure out either how to get amphibious or get by without it though.
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG

    One has to appreciate the small sources of joy! :D Speedy workboat reaches crabs a turn earlier!
    I'll work hard to whip stuff and get national epic done with overflow on that island.
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG

    Mad Monty asks me for currency and I would like to give it to him, but when he is worst enemy with both the two guys I plan to befriend long term... No can do. :|
    Diplo is shaping up to be a total mess. A while later in the game, tensions rise between churchill and boudi, and capac develops a distaste for the englishman too. Could it be, that techrate among the AIs are stunted, since they all hate each other? (Or prior to optics didn't know each other?)
    It's possible that since it looks like Monty is in the middle of Church and BigHat, he might have prevented them from meeting each other too.
    Civ4ScreenShot0012.JPG

    I'm close to guilds, and engineering starts to become available.
    Civ4ScreenShot0013.JPG

    I trade away Guilds for CS with Capac and I get some pocket change in the deal too and revolt to Bur+OR right away.
    I wanted to delay getting engineering as there was no immediate rush. Don't need it before I'm done with gunpowder.
    But next turn, Capac and Boudi starts to hate on Churchill, leaving me with only Boudi as a good trading partner, so I just do the deal with her, Guilds+litt for engineering+5g. Which I think means she had aleady started teching it herself.
    Civ4ScreenShot0019.JPG

    I get Hindu spread in Tokyo too, puts me up to 4 different religions. I note that I have marble+stone+copper on the island, so it could perhaps be possible to go for culture here too!
    But not with Toku... No that wouldn't be right.
    Civ4ScreenShot0023.JPG

    T167 I score yet another diplo hit with BigHat, who wants me to stop supplying Monty with Iron.
    Dude! He is giving me a halfdozen resources for that iron! No can do!
    I left ONE tile unbusted for ONE turn while shuffling aruond boats, and a barb spawns.
    I'm glad it wasn't an axe though. :D
    I quickly take opportunity of this and 1-turn a chariot in heroic.
    Civ4ScreenShot0030.JPG

    I'm really starting to run low on cash, I want Church to get alot of cash so I won't get as large diplo with with Boudi/Capac for selling CoL to him, or if Capac would get alot of cash I could sell my map which I think is worth a fortune.
    I also want to sell Guilds to Isabella because that would bump up relations with her alot, and it wouldn't score diplo hit with Boudi who hates Churchil more nowadays.

    Civ4ScreenShot0031.JPG
     
  12. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T175 :


    But noone gets any cash for me, so next turn I sell compass to Monty and get -2/-3 with Joao/Churchill for doing it.
    Monty looks really happy that someone wants to do business with him though!
    He gets so happy that he sends an invitation to a slave sacrificial ceremony in the ancient Aztec city of Newcastle. (Wait, isn't that a English name? Hmm?)
    Civ4ScreenShot0032.JPG

    T170 Joao comes up to pleased, and I beg for 10g right away to get a peace treaty to avoid diplo hits with Monty for a while.
    T171 Capac comes up to Friendly!
    Civ4ScreenShot0037.JPG

    Yes please Capac, give me Everything! You go tech toward stealth alone and leave us others for 100 turns now, and I'll come back with nukes later!
    Civ4ScreenShot0038.JPG

    The techs made his score increase, and the "We underdogs must stick together" dissapeared. I beg him and Boudica, for some small change to get peace treaties with them.
    Civ4ScreenShot0039.JPG

    Then I revolt to Islam. I'll try to chain the islam spread, whipping out a missionary with 2 hammers invested in a city with a forge, that generates very nice whip overflow that I can put into national epic.
    Civ4ScreenShot0041.JPG
    I like how this tech screen looks. I like it alot!
    Civ4ScreenShot0042.JPG
    Monty has apparantly found himself an own source of iron. :/ But I enjoyed that deal Featherhead!
    Civ4ScreenShot0043.JPG
    Capac wins lib and picks economics.
    I'm sure he thinks the tech-screen looks fine too!
    Civ4ScreenShot0044.JPG
    I get some dearly needed resources from Churchil instead.
    With iron back, now I can build Samurais in heroic and use those as military police too!
    Civ4ScreenShot0045.JPG
    T175 Overview. Tech looks roughly the same as T171. Only capac/monty has gunpowder.
    Starting to make plans to build some pirates.
    Satsuma has been working on a GPerson for a GA for some time, but it takes it's sweet time. If I add the engineering it starves down.
    Still need to finish islam spread and get natepic up on the island so can't really revolt to merc/paci either.
    I have left the north unbusted now with the idea to spawn some barbs to train on.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG
     
  13. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Oh my... Optics in T156 or 920AD.
    Spoiler :
    Presumably the rest is close to Lib by now. But one positive is that there have been born no less than 8 Great Generals!! Somebody are not the best of friends.

    Yes, I did settle the island. Things were pretty bad anyway, so why not. At least it got us better trade routes. Had I known it would take such a preposterously long time to get to Optics, however, it would have been wiser to make an Academy and try to get a third GS faster. Would have been in time anyway, if I'd run two scientists in that city all the time.

    Now to upgrade that eastern trireme, and cold-whip a caravel in the island. Postponed whipping the lighthouse to be able to do that. It grew to 6 last turn.

    Looks like Celtia (?) has a mighty long border with us. With better vision now, I can see it run all along the coast.

    Still miss some techs to be able to bulb Astro, and who knows if I can get anything in trade now so late. Hopefully somebody lack Optics still.
    Happy Toku-T156 Optics.jpg
     
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  14. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Pangea You are at twice my pop at T156! 54 pop compared to mine 25-something.
    I too went to heavy on GPGeneration and suffered from it. The timing and intuition I have built up from other maps seems to be totally off on this map.
     
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  15. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    No writeup, just two screenshots of the tech-screen. (All AIs in this game visible).
    One screenshot from this current game, and one from the other low sea level game I recently played (A fun game of Kublai!)
    Spoiler T186 :


    Civ4ScreenShot0017.JPG

    Civ4ScreenShot0014.JPG
     
  16. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2010
    Messages:
    6,014
    Later than krikav, but hopefully safe to read one of his spoilers now, and I've met most of the AIs.

    T167 (1070AD)
    Spoiler :
    Quite the crowd, and two mammoths. Haven't met the last AI yet, but Monty is at war with him/her. Technically not found him either, not his land, but he actually had Astro, and a caravel ran into mine. That was a bit annoying, because it looked like I had monopoly on it.

    Happy Toku-T167 scoreboard.jpg

    Boudica is the frontrunner with 17 cities. Incredible how much land she claimed. Much the same with Churchill it seems (16 cities), who may have been isolated too. He's a little more backwards technologically. Hoped to get CS for Optics with him, but he was teching it himself, so is practically done now. The others are more equal and manageable at 10-12 cities

    Liberalism hasn't gone yet, but HC got that locked down as the only person with Philo and Education. Unless the last person is advanced too. Quite some wonders, though HC has the lion's share. Not least of the religions :crazyeye:

    Happy Toku-religions.jpg

    Seems a little extreme, and he could definitely be a culture threat. Piles of wonders too as usual.

    Going back a little, met Isabella to our near east. She lacked Compass, so I instantly traded it for Calendar. Next turn I gave her Optics for Alpha+Aesthetics. Then double-bulbed Astro, which ended up about 80:science: short. Boudica must have had a unit somewhere that we didn't spot. She lacked Compass too, and I traded it to her for HBR + Masonry. Had to pay a little gold, but got some of it back next turn with Optics for Currency. Completed Poly ourselves from Astro overflow.

    1020AD, we've met 3 AIs, and the economy looks a good deal better. Saved gold because I hoped to avoid needing to self-tech CoL.

    Happy Toku-T162 finances.jpg

    Unfortunately Boudica was teching Astro at this point. Suppose she went straight for it after receiving Optics. Looked like she wouldn't trade it away, so I gave it to her for Feudalism+CoL+Literature+Monotheism. Monty had showed up by now, with Astro as mentioned, but he lacked Literature and Mono. Got the former between turns, but we sold him Mono for his 80:gold:.

    Many resource trades were also put into place. These jokers had oodles of excess gold. Many cities became unhealthy, but I felt it was more important to trade away some health and get so much gold per turn back. Plus a few happy resources, though it was sad that none of gems, gold or silver was on offer.

    3 crossbows were moving up to raze a barb city, but in T165, while en route, the archers were upgraded to longbows. 0% fortification, and now nigh on untouchable. No disaster, though. We re-arranged the dotmap a little, the cities would be kinda crap anyway, even with the barb crap removed. More interesting is a fairly large island to the west that is heavily infested with barbs, but otherwise free to claim. Raging barbs may well be an issue there, depending a bit on how large the land is, but so far it looks pretty sizeable. I had to just sail by it to try to get faster boats.

    Happy Toku-T167 barb island.jpg

    Would really like to claim that, since our starting 'island' is rather crap. However, will roaming barbs be upgraded to longbows and maybe maces too? That could be an issue, even if I send over some xbows. There is another small island as well, which also looks nice. Farther away, tho, so would cost a lot. Between Boudica and Churchill somewhere.

    Happy Toku-T167 small barb island.jpg

    A few new cities have been settled. Awkward locations really, and I'm hardly a big fan of the desert city with second ring food. But at least it can get some farms down the line. 1W has nothing going for it except deserts and mountains :cringe:

    Happy Toku-T167 empire overview.jpg

    Thankfully many possible tech trades now, so this feels like an important moment.

    Happy Toku-T167 techs overview.jpg

    Is it actually possible to get a win from here? Should I actually just forget about that barb continent and get out trebs instead? Maybe it will just be a bad distraction? There was something eerily similar in a recent game by @krikav.

    It doesn't look too bleak tech-wise right now, and I may be able to get Engineering, Guilds, Paper and Music. Have not looked at it too much yet in diplo screens (but know Churchill is probably one turn from completing Optics, I had to pay him for the Optics trade last turn, when we only lacked 4-500:science: on CS -- built research everywhere to get it in one turn). But this is usually around the time the AI's pace take off.

    Got a GS this turn, the third one. Unlikely to get another one for a while, so maybe it would be good to save him for a GA? Otherwise it's the usual bulbing shenanigans, into PP or Chemistry. Or maybe Edu, altho HC has that already, and Lib is a lost cause.

    Would be cool if somebody would take a look at the save and maybe offer some advice. Deity isn't my normal level.
     

    Attached Files:

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  17. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,160
    Location:
    Sweden
    @Pangaea
    Spoiler :

    I haven't checked your save out yet, but I will.
    I doubt that deity isolation low sea level raging barbs is anyones difficulty level though, but settings aside, there are things that give this map some silver lining.

    I didn't saw those offshore islands, my caravels took a different path and noone got paper for ages so I didn't get anyone elses map either.
    I'm not sure when (if ever?) it's a good idea to settle more land. Whenever I do, I really find myself enjoying those cities 50 turns down the road, but the opportunity cost I paid for those cities is extremly hard to quantify.

    I'm getting close to T200 myself, and have reached steel recently, but I feel like the timings are off. Getting everything in harmony is a challenge.. What civics when? GA when and how? Whip or grow pop? It's hard. :|

     
  18. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,160
    Location:
    Sweden
    @Pangea regarding your game:
    Spoiler :

    You have Engineering selected at teching at 100%. Engineering is a tech that I almost never tech myself, the AIs always get it and they soon trade it away.
    Capac is surely a threat, but when I see some AI getting that far ahead of the others, I mind less to trade with them, sure it hurts to boost them even more, but if they run really far ahead of the pack, the rest of the crowd can't give them anything anymore, and the others will become less advanced (relatively speaking).
    So in your game, I would probably look to trade astro+cs with capac for engineering+guilds, and start teching gunpowder.

    Not sure about the great scientist, if you haven't done the academy already it's probably better to use him to bulb chemistry. You have to get philo and avoid paper for that.
    An alterntive is to run a GA about right away. Saves at least two turns of anarchy since you can go into Bur/OR and Hindu now without revolt.
    Your cities are rather large, so the timing wouldn't be totally off. No pacifism so it won't be optimal, but waiting for optimal conditions can be to wait too long.
    Perhaps caste in the GA too and try to work the GPerson in Tokyo to completion, and make alot of headway toward the next in the island city.

    But I would probably opt for chembulb, and hurry up with the forge in Tokyo, and give Tokyo the capitals pigs to set it up to run two scientists and a engineer there as soon as possible, to get out a GPerson there for a GA later on. Getting this fourth guy is something I often overlook, but it's something that you benefit alot from if you get working on it sooner rather than later.

    You got litterature only a few turns ago, but I love to use those two for self-failgolding.
    Whip what you need, and route the failgold into these wonders, and when you need a cash injection you finish it in the relevant spot.
    It can be infrastructure thats needed, units in preparation or missionaries for religious spread.

    I would spread Hinduism in your situation, perhaps leave some of those northern cities unreligious so you can hope to get Buddhism there, if the diplomatic situation later on calls for it. (Trickery with jumping into Buddhism briefly during a GA to get Bella/Boudi friendly and trade with them).


    If you are going to whip stuff in the island city, I would for sure get a forge there first, it should pay for itself very quick.
     
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  19. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,160
    Location:
    Sweden
    Spoiler T191 :


    T175 I notice that Isabella isn't anyones worst enemy anymore, so I sell her music for 60g and gain +4 fair trade and jump up to cautious from annoyed.
    One of my two caravels attack and defeat a barb galley (I like trying to get these guys to 5xp for vision or speed.) only to spot yet another galley further away.
    And ofcourse it dies when the barb galley wins at 30% odds or so.
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG

    I sell my map to everyone when I run out of cash a turn before I finish chemistry, and get 420g in total. The map was probably worth way more but I find that if you don't sell it to everyone right away, they trade it to each other rather quick.
    Joao and Monty make peace and Monty starts to plot the same turn. :D
    Boudi is plotting now too, and I'm so glad I begged from her before going into Islam. I think she had a peace treaty with Bella, so it's likely her worst enemy Churchil. (Which is the likely target Monty has too)
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG

    With the war done, noone has Monty as worst enemy anymore, and I make sure to cement +4 fair trade with him before he lands himself in trouble again.
    Civ4ScreenShot0012.JPG

    T184 Capac begs me for chemistry... No mate, I need that to trade with you. Sorry! But I'll vote for you in every AP ellection because you are the only one I can vote for!

    I just sold Astro to Boudica for 310g as she was nearing completion of that.
    Civ4ScreenShot0017.JPG

    I was on my way with 4 privateers to rain on Capacs parade when he finishes Taj.
    Civ4ScreenShot0018.JPG

    But I blinked, and now almost everyone has chemstry. :(
    So I turn home with hope to kill enough caravels to reach the first GGeneral.
    Civ4ScreenShot0019.JPG

    This is something that happends once under a blue moon. Isabella sent a missionary with a caravel and spread Buddhism to a city that allready had a religion! The turn after she asks me to join her religion or the heavens will smithe me, well, the heavens must smithe on then. I'm a Islamist now!
    Civ4ScreenShot0020.JPG

    And then my own missionary fails to spread Islam to the heroic city. :| Need to whip out yet another one, and I thought I was done with that!
    Oh, and Joao who recently hated Montys guts, he has now peace vassaled and is friendly with him.... Uh Oh..
    Civ4ScreenShot0023.JPG

    Nationalism up for sale and I get it from Joao for paper and astro.
    Isabella has started plotting too, but against whom I will never know, because next turn Boudica declared on her.
    Weird, I thought she had a peace treaty with Isabella...
    This isn't the first time I'm fooled by this. Perhaps the AIs can start to plot against each other while in peace treaties..?
    Civ4ScreenShot0024.JPG


     
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  20. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
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    4,160
    Location:
    Sweden
    Ok, abit of a hurried update. Have lost focus abit now I think.
    Spoiler T195 :

    State of the empire at T192, when steel is finally in.
    I regret building the 5 privateers, as they are now just running away from Capacs frigattes. I would very much have liked to have 6-7 more samurais now instead.
    Civ4ScreenShot0029.JPG
    I kind of want to sell philo to Boudica, but Churchil still hates her so I don't. I do contemplate selling steel to get MC from Joao, because I think I could flip MC to Capac for PP. But I refain from breaking my monpoly on steel a while longer.
    Civ4ScreenShot0030.JPG
    Boudica has about 8 corn for trade... I start to seriously doubt the possibility to topple these giants.
    Super monty with all the worlds resources and a Vassal.
    Capac with 4 religions and most wonders...
    And now Boudica which is starting to bash Isabella which won't hold up forever.
    Civ4ScreenShot0031.JPG
    Too few of everything. If only I had like 6 trebs to upgrade and some more Samurai, a pair of pikes and a musket or two. I could jump ship and join the fiesta in an eyeblink.
    But apparantly I got distracted watching my cottages mature while teching toward steel?
    National epic is finished on the island this turn, and I get 400 more failgold that also could be used to upgrade trebs. But there are no trebs to upgrade.
    Civ4ScreenShot0032.JPG
    I have gotten that great person I have been working on in Satsuma for ages, but I decide against running a GA now too. I'll do that in some recovery phase later on instead. Capital is set up to do a pair of whips before I revolt to vass/theo from bur/OR.
    I like this, because it's hard to keep a large capital up and happy while in war. And getting the +75% bonus for the population that is being whipped away is nice and generates sweet overflow that can be put into units.
    After this whip, the capital can again regrow and will have a much greater chance to keep the economy safely afloat with the +% gold multipliers.
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG

    From what I have recently learned... If I would complete this grocer build now, I would get 10+202-150 = 62 hammers overflow.
    But those would be divided by the multipliers and end up at 62 / 2 = 31 hammers.
    But If I now revolt to vass/theo, I would instead get (6+202-150)/ 1.25 = 46 hammers overflow?
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG

    After the self-destruction of the capital, and some other whips (drydock in Satsuma, a 1popwhip of drydock to completion in Osaka and a forge in Izumo) I revolt.
    Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG

    Oh sweet, Churchil my mate doesn't dissapoint. I get MilSci for Nationalism+Astro, with paper I had to add 400g and I want my cash.
    I set my hope to swing this onwards to Capac to get his PP next turn. :)
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG

    46 Hammers overflow! Yes! Hypothesis correct!
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG
    And sweet! Noone gave Capac MilSci inbetween turns.
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG


     

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