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Toku Deity Raging Barbs

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Pangaea, Feb 3, 2021.

  1. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Things seem very grim for me around T225.

    Spoiler :
    I've still only met two AI. 22 city Churchill and his vassal Monty. I do have Steel, Rifling, and Astro now, but I'm probably just about out of the trading game going forward unless the other AI are further behind. Churchill looks like a monster right now though, and I don't see how I can ever get in a position to beat him, even if i manage to take out Izzy. I just needed to meet people earlier to trade for things i ended up self-teching.

    I might give this one another shot going for Optics, but i dunno.
     
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  2. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Izuul
    Spoiler :

    In my game certainly, but it seems like in both yours and @Pangaeas game too, techrate seemed very slow.
    Well, it's certain to pick up pace later on, when those giants starts to mature.
    But it does add abit of hope for the map imho.

    If I where to replay, I would love to see how fast one can streamline a cannon/samurai attack against Isabella (or perhaps go with trebs already..?
    Might be an approach you are interested to try out too?

    There is certainly alot of things in the earlier game that could be improved also, be that yours, mine or pangeas game.
     
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  3. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    I'll upload my save tomorrow morning for you to look at.

    One of the huge perks when going for Optics and Astro is being able to trade those for Construction, Feudalism, Engineering, Guilds, etc. The AI always prioritizes those and is almost always willing to trade them.

    It's a major drag trying to get to cannons without trading for that stuff.
     
  4. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    @krikav, read your T167 update
    Spoiler :
    I'm surprised several of the AIs have so few cities in your game, that could make it more manageable. Bad luck in my with Monty already having Astro and Boudica starting it early (I traded it to her while I could get a lot). Have to admit it's disheartening to see you that far ahead, but it is what it is :( At least some of my cities are decently developed, but access to techs is the name of the game here really. If I can't get to steel before these people have infantry, it's a lost game. And since I had to trade away Astro, it will boost them quite a lot (tho two are in Merc currently).

    Thought about trading away Astro while I can still get something nice for it, but maybe your suggestion is better, and I can just trade with HC and hope the others keep away from it for a while, and not inter-trade. Music+Paper isn't that important (Music would be nice to build culture in new cities tho). Then I can start on Gunpowder.

    An issue what to do with the GS, but my natural inclination is to keep him around for bulbing. Don't want a GAge now without Philo, but did think about going Philo myself next and launching a GAge. Hard to know what is the best move here. And it will be rough to find a win with the AIs this big, and with HC hogging 6(!!) religions.

    Think you are right that it's best to avoid that barb island, tho. I won't be able to carry such a distraction right now. The continent basically just has 5 good cities, plus the island where I may be able to whip-OF out NEpic, but that will take a while still. Should probably just get up HEpic asap in the east, tho. It's a good city, and I need to start getting out trebs very soon anyway. Would love two promotions on them, but no-can-do here I think. Once I go Buro+OR, that will be it for a while.

    I was actually hoping for Buddhism spread here, to get on good terms with Boudica and Isabella, maybe Friendly and get some nice trades. Also, I'm actually a bit concerned about spreading Hinduism when it's the AP religion. If that randomly spreads to all AIs, he could snatch AP win.

    Need to open the game again and have a better look at things. Perhaps going Hindu is indeed the better move, altho it will enrage especially Isabella. Boudica at 17 cities, tho...? Not easy.... :help:
     
  5. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    @Izuul
    Spoiler :
    True. Things look a good deal better in Krikav's game on that front, without anybody pursuing Astro it seems. But an important aspect is to be able to trade up with the Astro line, and backfill as much as possible. Then hopefully use some other trading chips for other techs one need, like Edu, Nationalism, PP etc. It's later I find the bigger problems: Once the AIs are flying through the tree to Assembly Line, Physics, Electricity, Artillery and the like, while I'm fluffling about with Rifles and Cannons.
     
  6. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Quick question: Do Samurais keep the two first strikes when upgraded?
     
  7. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Played a little further, important turns (and I have to leave now)

    T171
    Spoiler :
    Sold Optics to Chuchill for his 60:gold:, and traded CS to Boudica and Monty for Theo and Music. Next turn the situation looked like this. Worth to keep in mind that Capac is Isabella's worst enemy. Monty has already crept above the "We fear.." limit, and some of the others won't be far behind.

    Happy Toku-T168 techs.jpg

    Am not sure if it was wise to do this with Churchill, but I also assume he will trade up with the others pretty quickly, so figured it was a decent enough deal.

    Happy Toku-T168 Chuchill deal.jpg

    I kept some hope that HC would stay away from Astro and that Philo could become an option. Two turns later it does. Well, except from the tiny significant fact that he also won Lib that turn -- and picked Astro. Gah!! Still haven't found Joao (but know it's him from other updates), so I can't know his situation, but of those I know, only Isabella lacks Astro now, so she would probably get in between turns. Therefore I sold her Astro for Divine Right. Could have gotten Drama too, but it's small and everybody have it, so basically useless. Theatres is a non-factor here.

    T171 situation, with Boudica and Monty in WFYHBTA. Can get Banking for DR, but it doesn't really do anything at this juncture, and it may tip HC over the edge too. Instead, maybe I can get Philo for Gunpowder with him, if he stays a good boy and does something else.
    Happy Toku-T171 techs.jpg

    Have whipped some cities now, including 3-popping a Grocer in the capital. No religion picked yet as we only have 3 different ones in a city each, so that hurts a little, but I want to wait and see if Buddhism spreads. That looks most promising to me. Maybe I can attack HC instead? He's bound to become a culture threat with 6 freakin' religions (thankfully three are founded on his eastern island, so he needs missionaries to ferry across from there). Only had 4 workers too, so have whipped a few more, including from the island with OF into NE. HE almost done, after I noticed a 20/60h Stables build out-of-queue that overflowed very nicely.
    Happy Toku-T171 empire.jpg

    Not entirely sure how best to use all these forests. Into NE-gold would be nice for upgrades, but I put a chop into a worker and two others into a treb. Suppose units is the best here. I'll need them, that's for sure, as all these buggers are super-huge. Think Monty has taken a city from Joao based on city names, but am not entirely sure. Hope I meet him soon. A caravel is going up the coast over there, and I assume he is on the same continent as Monty. Confu just spread to Churchill, so he picked that.

    10th GG was born. DAMN! Monty and Joao are really going at each!
     
  8. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    No, but they do keep the drill promotion they got.
    Thats kind of nice, because with other PRO leaders, the maces you upgrade become the only rifles/grenaders you got without drill.
    But it does make the unit way stronger though, which is nice. Maces tend to stick around for quite long in my doomstacks while they patiently work their way up to enough promotionts that they are worthy of an upgrade.



    Regarding disheartening:
    Spoiler :

    Well, we are playing a map that for all intents and purposes where rolled to result in a masochistic loss. It's just by some weird coincidence that there are some silver lining in some of the games.
    I could focus on the depressing stuff on my map too, mainly Monty having a vassal.
    And more worryingly is that Boudi dislikes Isabella.
    I like your situation on that island much better, Boudi doesn't plot at pleased and if she where to like Bella, it's somewhat safe to leave that island to it's own business and possibly attend to more urgent matters.

    It's tough to have a interest in the game when you start to see everyone blazing away in the tech tree. But it's par for the course, they just fly away from you.
    I try to focus on the task at hand, bullying my first target, thinking that I'll worry about those other problems later on. And suprisingly often, there is a way to catch them. And if not? Well, well played AI! You won! Postmortem, what did I do wrong? What can I improve?
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021
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  9. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler :


    Your words, not mine! :D Ofcourse you must trade with Capac now while you can, so you can go straight for steel.

    I think this is something I struggle with, and likely you too. I saw it in the Kublai game too where I wanted to wait with a GA until I was "ready".
    I think one has to think about it this way: "The small and insignificant Japaneese empire also had a golden age. It wasn't as glorious as other nations certainly, but it did improve on their situation alot."
    I often want to delay these big moves GA/Civic switches/DoWs until circumstances are right and I think thats wrong and lands me into trouble.
    Case in point here in this game... I was hesitant to build trebs, because upgrading 3xp trebs to cannons didn't look so appealing, so I instead built none, only some few samurai (low xp on those doens't matter I think, they get their eventually). And also some privateeers that I have trouble getting use out of now.
    I delayed trebs because I wanted conditions to be right, and then I landed in a situation where I was worse off.





    I didn't think about the danger of AP win, thats relevant, and I think getting Buddhism could be nice too. Especially if you can get some or all of the others into that too. Having everyone hate capac and hit him first would be sweet. Hitting the strongest competitor first is always nice.
    But there is no buddhist spread.
    Could just ignore religion alltogether now too, it's quite possible to play without it, and it does save you the investment of having to spread it around. There is plenty of iso games where I have gotten only a heathen minor religion, or no religion at all.

     
  10. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Pangea everything I say to you is just my own personal thought, a different perspective. I know you are a very strong player and I don't have all answers.
    Regarding your T171 update
    Spoiler :

    I think the trading order was backwards. I would never ever risk losing out on a guilds/engineering trade, it seems you did ok brokering around theo/music though. Those are nice to have but too risky for my taste.
    Trading for divine right is not something that I ever do either, and if there is no use for drama/HBR I don't get those either. It adds unecessery WFYABTA and keeping them at the AIs side makes it easier to juggle around abit during negotiations to see how much different techs are worth, and what the AIs are teching.

    Giving away techs for free tough is nice. so with Isabella I would rather have just given her astro to make sure to cement +4 fair trade.

    In the present situation, perhaps giving divine right away too is also good.
    When the AIs are close to each other, I usually try to figure out what possible trades they could do, and try my best to avoid that they do those trades.
    Could monty give someone gunpowder for divine right...? I would be paranoid about that and just gift it to him.
    But overall, you got guilds and are going toward gunpowder and will be among the first there. Thats a good and comfortable situation imho!
    Nothing more is desperatly needed, you could just limp your way to steel and amass an army and hit someone with cannons+samurai with some guerila promoted muskets for stack defence. Mil/Sci often comes up for trade and if not you can snail your way there too.
    Philosophy/Education etc etc.. Yeah very good to have but you can get there after you carve some land out of capac or some other target.

    You figured out the thing with Buddhism and then focusing on Capac as first target too! I wrote something about that before seeing your 171 update, but it would sure be nice if you could make that work.
    Perhaps if you luck out on buddhism spread, you could send a missionary to monty asap? Perhaps set up a galley/galleon chain or parts of it in preparation? Or that might be overthinking it and misprioritize.


     
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  11. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T205 :

    I just continue to build up. T197 Boudi asks me to join her war and I agree. It's abit premature but Isabella is no danger, she is lacking gunpowder so no nasty firgattes.
    Two of my 5 privateers move 4 tiles at the time, staying just out of reach of capacs frigattes while they move up north and around the north pole toward my island city. Then the 3 other privateers help clear some of isabellas caravels and building up xp.
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG

    I had a turn into education, so got education for PP with Joao who is friendly now with 160g added to the deal.
    I'm not sure why but I don't have the "+2 you voted for us" bonus with capac anymore, but I check the members and it looks like there is a vote again in 3 turn? So I'm thinking I could get constitution from him. If I have that, I start to get some serious teching power myself and could hold my own abit further on.
    Myself, I'm on my way to replaceable parts and rifling.
    Next turn I sell Philosophy to Boudi for 490g which angers Churchil, but i need the cash!
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG

    T200 Boudi asks me to become a Hindu too, but no... All these constant demands. I'm setting myself up for a world of hurt later on here, noone will like me. :|
    I land some first units, but with only few cannons I'll have to camp on that hill for a while and bombard.
    Also, whats with that error message?! <Color= blablah map finder regen map"? That error message was one of the main reasons I reinstalled, and it persist!
    Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG

    Isabella has lost a city, and she is looking like she is ready to fold so I have to pay Boudi to back off.
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG

    I'm afraid that Boudi which hates me now would take Isabella as a vassal and DoW me though. (Perhaps they don't do that if Isabella hates Boudi..?) I'm taking no chances and instead bring a buddy to the game.
    Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG

    Capac has communism, which I also want (even more than constitution), so I hold now abit and hope that some of the other AIs will get liberalism soon, and that I can use steel+RP to get communism from capac.
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG

    Now I'm ready to take the city. Which to my suprise contained 4 settled great generals.
    Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG

    No liberalism up for trade, and now churchil has scimeth too, so I get economics.
    It doesn't seem like anyone of Churchil/Joao/Capac has any beakers into either steel or RP. (Churchil is lacking divine right so more difficult to judge from him, but he is willing to make peace with Isabella and still give me drama+hbr+cash for either tech.)
    So I'll hold onto those for longer. Both Joao and Capac are friendly now so getting constitution+corporations or perhaps communism seems possible. If I can get either one that would be good.
    Civ4ScreenShot0013.JPG

    Isabella does still not have gunpower, but she does have MT so at any turn I could face a bunch of upgraded knights to conquistadors. So I'm very hesitant to attack seville from flatland. The only hill to attack Madrid from though is across a river.. so don't know about that. But at the same time, using that hill as an outpost and pillage the horse might be an option. I could land a smaller party with only some strong grenadiers and a pair of cannons to go in first into Madrid. The river penalty should be bearable for the rest after that.
    Civ4ScreenShot0015.JPG
    I'm trying to slow down on the whippings. If I can get constitution I would like to do a golden age soonish and I want bigger cities for that.
    The two privateers that where stuck in the island city, with 6 of capacs frigattes standing guard just outside port, eventually got bored and made a run for it. One got shot down and the other one is running for it's life too.
    I try to use the remaining 3 in isabellas territory, but I sure wish I had built something more useful instead.
    Monty is picking of barb cities and settling islands and is still plotting, which is also a reason I went out with the privteers... I just want to check if there is 20 galleons moving toward me, but so far, the coast is clear.
    Civ4ScreenShot0016.JPG

     
  12. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    The T205 save. Don't be afraid to come with pointers, I'm sure there are tons of stuff I'm overlooking too!
     

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  13. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    @krikav
    Spoiler :
    Didn't think that losing out on Eng+Guilds was that risky at the time since few people had Astro, but maybe it could have gone down the drain anyway, if I was unlucky. Thankfully that didn't happen. Think I'm often too greedy with trades like this, though. Always try to barter stuff around, look for chains turn-by-turn and things like that. Sometimes it works out, but sometimes not, like when HC suddenly got Astro. Had he waited with Lib one turn, it would (most likely) have been fine, and he would have picked Economics. So the Divine Right was just to get something for the last Astro trade, with hope for bargaining that further afterwards. Sure, I could get Banking, but more likely they'll trade DR around themselves, and I get nothing. Gifting away expensive techs isn't something I usually do, unless in specific scenarios. Usually you build up to +4 over time anyway. I try to throw in cheap techs on my side when possible tho, because they all count towards the "shared your technological discoveries with us" bonus. Priesthood and Communism both count the same in that regard.

    Aye, I've looked at that situation for a while, and thought it could potentially be risky to e.g. declare on Isabella, and maybe have Boudica bribed on me. Being able to go directly at HC is more tempting in a sense, but not if he becomes super advanced, which he could become here. On the other hand, it may be possible to bribe Isabella onto him, as she hates him. I only need Pleased, which will be easy if Buddhism spreads. I'll be amazed if it doesn't spread to be honest. Barcelona is the holy city (with a shrine) just across the tiny strait. Weird it hasn't spread yet, but it's bound to happen sooner or later, as long as I don't start spreading other religions around. So I'm kinda hoping for that to happen. Then I can buddy up to Boudica+Isabella and start spreading Buddhism around. Maybe launch a GAge and go into Theo at the end. HC is pretty close too, maybe just 2 turns travel with 5-move galleons.

    This stuff works out nicely in my own head, but getting it to happen in the game, against Deity AIs, can be rather different in practice :lol: HC can suddenly get rifles, and those are not so nice to face, especially with only one-promotion Cannons. That 2nd promotion means a whole lot. The third is certainly nice, but mostly useful against sturdy top defenders. CR2 cannons are very, very good already.

    Think I'll play a bit further before reading your latest updates.
     
  14. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    T230 save

    Spoiler :
    Now that there's been some contact among civs i can see that Izzy is fighting a war and losing. That's probably more bad news for me because if I jump in over there against her she will probably capitulate to whoever is beating her up. I could instead try to help her, but I don't know how strong the other AI is. I have galleons coming out next turn so i should find out soon if i choose to keep playing.

    Mistakes i believe i made:

    -Settled Nagoya too late. It's fine to stay small when beelining Optics, but since i was playing the long game here the extra cities certainly would have paid off and that's a nice spot relative to most of the land available here.

    -Probably settled the island city of Nara too late as well. I wanted it earlier, but was waiting to trade for Sailing and then i had to clear out barb galleys.

    -I don't really like where i settled Osaka. I remembering feeling like i needed the production from the horse tile and thinking that a border pop for the clams was way too far off to worry about, but right now i wish that city was 1E. 1NW of clams is obviously another option, but i wanted to be able to grow cottages for Kyoto and you can't do much of that from that spot.

    -When i traded for IW i found i had a mine already on riverside Iron so i couldn't build warriors any longer. I think it was probably correct to pillage it, but i did not and ended up building quite a few archers for MP which each cost 10 more hammers. I think the iron tile was 2H and 1C better than the alternative grass mine i could've worked had i pillaged. Alternatively, that tile could've made an interesting 1F, 2H cottage until i was ready for iron later.

    Interesting/Questionable big picture decisions:

    -The big one here is obviously not going for Optics. I just assumed that Deity AI would meet me within a reasonable time frame and i could get away with taking a different tech path and using the marble. It didn't work out. I don't know if it's the Raging Barbs or the map layout, but I've STILL only met 3 of the 6 AI on T230.

    -When are the northern cities worth settling? They don't offer much during the tech phase, but are obviously very useful for whipping units during the attacking phase. I should have settled them at some point, but it's not clear to me when i should've done that. If i had gone straight for Optics i probably would've settled them after getting Optics and Astro.

    -I'm also curious what you guys think about using Satsuma to meet Izzy. It obviously meant settling a weaker city, but, given that my plan at the time did not involve early Optics, i think the trades that it brought were well worth it. Of course that was also kind of risky because I'm not sure what she would've been willing to trade had she not known other AI.
     

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  15. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T210 :


    The privateer got a look at Montys shores, and it seems perfecly clear, a lone galleon is probably for settling some island. Phew!
    The privateer makes a sharp turn north-east and heads for port.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

    Bella is approaching with some nasty knights so I have to fork out a fortune to upgrade those guerilla2 archers to grenadiers.
    Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG

    Warfare is going at snails pace without strong stack defenders. I don't dare land on the flatland, want to land on the hill. But I have too few healthy frigattes to move to the tile SW of Madrid (which has ALOT of caravels) this turn. Have to delay until next turn.
    Civ4ScreenShot0011.JPG

    I checked back on previous screenshots, and Monty got RP last turn, and between 207 and 208 he traded that to Joao.
    Now I'm in a cunundrum... I could get Physics from Boudica for all my techs, or I could get constitution from Joao for steel.
    But I really don't want to give away steel just yet. Noone has any beakers into it at all.
    What is urgent though, is RP. Joao will trade it around like popcorn.
    So I just traded RP+230g+my map for liberalism.
    Unfortunatly though, that pushes me over WFYABTA with Boudi and I'm unlikely to get Physics or anything at all from her ever again.
    Civ4ScreenShot0012.JPG

    Churchil gets constitution! Good thing I didn't trade in panic for that with Capac/Joao, now I get it for lib+rp.
    I could get corporations next turn, possibly from Joao if I just put enough beakers into it.
    But communism is way more important, so I go full throttle into communism and pray that capac will give me it for steel soon.
    Civ4ScreenShot0023.JPG

    Please hurry up with those "reasons" you have Capac, I need that trade!
    Civ4ScreenShot0031.JPG

    I take a beating in Barcelona. I ship back about 1 unit and the medic from the attack-stack, and I'm able to chain two more from the mainland to defend properly. I make a military academy with the GGeneral that just spawned. Think hammers is worth more than promotions right now.
    Getting a military academy in Barcelona with those 4 settled GGenerals would be nice but that have to wait.
    Civ4ScreenShot0024.JPG

    I start a missionary build in capital (only city with a monastery), because I want Islam here. Planning to start a GA as soon as this city is out of revolt.
    Could probably starve out a GPerson here alone, and it's a good use for the population when I got no tiles, if only I can get the happines high enough, don't really want to go through a GA with monarchy.
    Civ4ScreenShot0034.JPG

    I thought 37% odds against Madrid with the cannons where too rough, so I simply moved down. She doesn't have that many units nearby so I think it's a reasonable risk. I pray and push end turn.
    Civ4ScreenShot0037.JPG
     
  16. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Spoiler T211 :

    Well... Isabella didn't kill my stack, she didn't even attack but instead holed up in her city. But things didn't turn out that great anyway. :|
    Apparantly it was me he started to plot against the same turn he made pace with Joao T179.
    Forgive me if I thought it was Churchil, his worst enemy that he shared borders with.
    But featherhead does featherhead things.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG
    I don't have that good of a view, but so far, the only boats I see is one frigatte and one galleon.
    I'm almost certain I could have spotted these last turn if I had paid attention, that would have enabled me to make a beg and get 10 turns to prepare.
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG


    The attack against Madrid went OK, second cannon dying at 80% odds was abit annoying, likewise the samurai that died at 98% odds. But I won a couple of 90% fights too, some of the 3xp samurai that I built prior to vass/theo switch got to jump in first promoted with CR1.
    Civ4ScreenShot0041.JPG

    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG
    My idea of a GA in rep/caste/pacifism will have to be delayed, now it's the whip up right away. Those 20 galleons loaded with grenadiers/knights could show up any second. I also space out my galleons 3 on the first x, and 3 on the second x, that way 9 units can board next turn and be chained to the big X between Izumo and Osaka, and I can unload them in either city and deploy right away.
    My navy still have to stand guard outside of Madrid, keeping those caravels trapped, but I should be able to get that city next turn. Hope her culture doesn't engulf the gold+sugar, because I'm in desperate need for that happines.
    Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG


     

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  17. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Izuul
    Spoiler :



    I don't think that sitting tight in a passive approach is the best path on this map. The land is somewhat decent but not stellar. With more and better land, i think such an approach can be justifed but here I don't think so.
    I see you got -4 diplo with Churchill for trading with his worst enemy, That looks rough, especially since he now has Monty as a vassal.
    He doesn't plot at pleased, and I would have prioritized buying his map, if for no other reason but to get better traderoutes.




    "When are the northern cities worth settling?"
    I settled more after I had squeezed myself through the commerce bottleneck at optics. And I did so when I had enough workers available to give them a flying start.
    Lots of chops available ment I could do library first for the culture in some too.
    The crab/stone city I wanted with the resources in second ring, and that was abit annoying, but when I had a missionary and could build culture that obstacle was overcome.
    That city has still not really given me any return on my investment in my game though.

    I'm not sure about Osaka. that depends if you got value from maturing cottages or not. I thought that was abit problematic myself, there wasn't really a long period between when capital was severely limited in happines, and when it could handle it's cottages itself.
    And regarding capital, I see you got GLib+natepic there, thats a setup thats common to land in for me too as the capital is usually the strongest city and best suited to get GLib, and once you got GLib, natepic makes sense there too.
    However, natepic in the capital is abit antagonistic to a strategy with burocracy and cottages, as you want to run specialists when you have natepic there.
    I also see that you have heroic in capital, and that I don't like at all. That puts even further burden on a city thats already struggling to achieve somewhat conflicting demands.


    Regarding pre-optics contact with the other AI, I think that makes total sense if you aren't going optics yourself.
    However, I would probably have settled here then, as a sort of compromoise.
    Still only need 100 culture to make contact which is 33 turns with monument+library, less if you get the 1000year bonus.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG

     
  18. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2010
    Messages:
    6,016
    Small T180 update.
    Spoiler :
    Teching Steel now, which feels nice, even if we're a good way off it still. Managed to trade for PPress as well. Always forget about this because it's a late tech, but it's one of those that the AI is always willing to trade, like Monarchy, because it doesn't unlock any units or buildings.

    Finally met Joao. Monty has started to really bang him up I think. Very high war weariness on both fronts, but the one listed on Monty is highest, which usually means he's killing a lot of units. 270 vs 180 WW. Earlier I could bribe both off each other, but now the option is redlined for Joao, so he's not doing great. Behind in tech too, so in a probably vain attempt to help him out, I just sold him Gunpowder for his 80g. Instant -4 with Monty, and I have the same with Isabella due to trading Gunpowder for Philo with Capac earlier.

    Happy Toku-T180 techs.jpg

    Am producing trebs and samurais, but not really whipping due to fairly low food everywhere, and many cottages. It's therefore slow and we don't have many yet, but I can whip hard closer to Steel. Heroic Epic is up. Still working on NE. Isabella sort of the most advanced currently, and I assume she is working on Physics. Boudica is massive at 18 cities, though, and Churchill with 16. He has snagged an island. Strange-looking map with so many separate islands or continents, including at least 3 'free' ones for barbs.

    Had our land had better city locations, I could have tried to settle that large island to our west, if only to deny it to the AIs. But as it stands, it's rough just getting out some more workers, as I don't feel any of the cities can afford much whipping at this stage. It hurts to whip away PP villages and towns. Have whipped a couple workers on the NE island, with OF into NE. We need to farm a lot of the land I think, with maybe some workshops too. They equal mines now. The few workers I have are chopping and farming, though, and improving that city way up north (deer and copper).
     
  19. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,321
    Location:
    Sweden
    Spoiler T219 :

    The privateer takes one frigatte to the grave. I wonder how privateers count toward war success? Probably not in either direction I assume?
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG

    So nice when they park their boats like this.
    Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG

    Capac finishes Kremlin and I can get Communism, yay!
    Civ4ScreenShot0008.JPG

    Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG

    I manage to sink some ships before they drop of units too. And abit later I'm helped by Joao who instead of dropping of close to Izumo, instead continue to travel and parks his galleon 1E of Osakas clams.
    Civ4ScreenShot0010.JPG

    A rather large force got dropped off, cold whipped walls, and since he has one treb in that stack, he just stays and bombards.
    Civ4ScreenShot0016.JPG

    One collateral promoted cannon gives it's life first.
    Civ4ScreenShot0027.JPG

    Actually getting some help from Churchill too! :D I pillaged that horse with the medic on the path toward cordoba too, I don't like her conqs at all!
    Civ4ScreenShot0028.JPG

    Have constantly checked, but churchil doesn't have beakers into either communism nor steel, was crossing my fingers that he goes for steampower or rifling, and T218 he does finish rifling and I trade communism+steel for rifling+corporation+445g.
    Civ4ScreenShot0029.JPG

    After a while, Monty and I have a talk, and it turns out that it was all just a big missunderstanding.
    No hard feelings at all Monty!
    After peace, I'm instantly friendly with Joao again, and since Church and Joao also are pleased with each other they are likely to trade communism<->steampower, so i give both rifling+communism for steampower myself. Now I also take horsebackriding and drama, might come in handy eventually.
    Civ4ScreenShot0035.JPG
     
    Major Tom and Pangaea like this.
  20. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2010
    Messages:
    6,016
    @krikav
    Spoiler :
    Looked at the T211 save and 219 update. Very well done getting peace with Monty+Joao. That could have been a very nasty backstab if it continued. Good thing you managed to take out his stack.

    See there is a shrine in your game in Barcelona too, which is very nice, particularly when a bank + market/grocer survived. Don't think you will keep the sugar or gold for now, but once Salamance is taken you're good. I assume she has 60% culture there. Hmm, maybe the gold will stick be free without it. Not sure how those borders work diagonally at high culture levels..

    Now with Communism, you're in a much better position. It's so good when capturing cities on new continents, with 0 colony maintenance costs. That will be a huge and expensive factor in non-SP empires.

    I see HC is really racking up the culture in your game too (211 save), where he is close to 10,000 already. Keep an eye on that moving forward. Oddly he hasn't taken that eastern island yet, two barb cities there, so that may help a little.

    Don't know if you can save the time and hammers for this, and there is always a unit parked on it, but it would be possible to send a spy to him and smash the iron, and then sell him yours for probably a rather big stack of resources. Without that eastern island, he only has one iron source. Given his available resources, mainly just health, it may not be worth it tho.

    With several friendly AIs, diplo could be a possibility in this game.

    Also, very nice move with the trapped caravels!

    Edit: One thing I'm a little puzzled with: Why did you go into both Vassalage and Theo? Losing Buro hurts you here I think. And you still only get two promotions. I like to go into Theo when preparing war, if the state religion is well spread, but not both of those really. Unless the empire is very large I suppose, where Buro isn't so crucial any more.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021

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