Tom Perez Elected DNC Chair

[metalhead]

I don't think Ellison's religion had anything whatsoever to do with his loss. In fact I would think it would have worked in his favor given how much people like you and I want to show off the party's diversity in the face of the ceaseless, unrepentant racism displayed by the right.

I . . . kinda think it did. It's an uncomfortable conclusion, but in attempting to understand why the ObamaClintons felt the need to plug their guy into the Chair a full month after Ellison announced and immediately became the frontrunner, I keep drawing a blank on any legitimate reason they could possibly have. Ellison said he'd leave his House seat to do the job full time. He's very good on TV. He arouses the passions of the base. He's basically everything you could want in a DNC Chair, but some of the old guard decided they didn't want him to have the job.

Maybe it's just the ultimate insider's move and his religion isn't a factor, but I'm really not sure.

 

[onejayhawk]

No, but I plan on shaving it tonight if you must know...

Yul be sorry.

I don't think Ellison's religion had anything whatsoever to do with his loss. In fact I would think it would have worked in his favor given how much people like you and I want to show off the party's diversity in the face of the ceaseless, unrepentant racism displayed by the right.

The Democrats will not win elections until this attitude is discredited. There is no "ceaseless, unrepentant racism by the right" or by anyone else. Saying so is not only bigoted, it's shows lack of good judgement.

J

 

[metalhead]

Not for certain definitions of racism, at least. Though it's especially hard to defend anti-voting laws pushed en masse by the GOP as not racially motivated, when you consider their impact.

 

[onejayhawk]

Not for certain definitions of racism, at least. Though it's especially hard to defend anti-voting laws pushed en masse by the GOP as not racially motivated, when you consider their impact.

It's time you understand that racism is nothing more than a straw man. It is not that it is not real but that it has not been a motivator for generations.

J

 

[Lexicus]

What overriding need? I refuse to believe there is or was a consipiracy to keep Perez from chair. I also refuse to believe it matters. The democrats need better candidates, not perfect DNC leadership.

And to the bolded - where are you even getting this from? Seriously you read like you're still butthurt about Bernie losing and are of the opinion that he lost due to a conspiracy - a conspiracy of sorts to undermine and work against the party's own base because reasons - that still goes on to this day. Please show me the error of my ways.

The use of the word 'conspiracy' here is a rather pathetic strawman.

If you want to deny the idea that there are elements within the Democratic Party that are sometimes at odds, go right ahead. You're the one who's being delusional, not me.

You're making the perfect the enemy of the good.

Yeah, I believed this crap when they told me that I should support Hillary and she would appeal to the moderates and all would be well. I don't anymore. Again, if your attitude is reflective of the attitudes of those running the Democratic Party I don't believe they're going to win bigly in any elections any time soon.
But I guess we shall see.

I don't think Ellison's religion had anything whatsoever to do with his loss. In fact I would think it would have worked in his favor given how much people like you and I want to show off the party's diversity in the face of the ceaseless, unrepentant racism displayed by the right.

That's utterly delusional. Ellison was smeared with the brush of Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam and anti-Semitism. That was basically why he lost. And those were clearly attacks that would never have even come up if Ellison weren't a Muslim. To me what you're saying here is essentially the same as saying Birtherism had nothing to do with Obama's race.

 

[metalhead]

It's time you understand that racism is nothing more than a straw man. It is not that it is not real but that it has not been a motivator for generations.

J

This is such an astoundingly ignorant statement that it makes it clear why you are incapable of intelligent discussion. I know you're basically trying to cover for your own biases by claiming that anything short of putting on white sheets can't legitimately be described as racist, because you do it all the time, but suffice it to say that you have no idea what racism is all about if you honestly believe that this is a true statement.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Yeah, I believed this crap when they told me that I should support Hillary and she would appeal to the moderates and all would be well. I don't anymore. Again, if your attitude is reflective of the attitudes of those running the Democratic Party I don't believe they're going to win bigly in any elections any time soon. But I guess we shall see.

I definitely bought into this notion completely, and I am dead to rights guilty of trying to make the case for it. And I am thoroughly convinced that it didn't work... the "lesser of two evils", pivot to the center... yada yada yada... it failed. FWIW I learned something. People have to feel it. I'm not feeling Perez, and I'm a Hillary supporter... I think that's telling.

You guys perspective on Ellison's religion having an impact is fascinating. I wasn't following it closely enough to know about all that.

 

[Sommerswerd]

anything short of putting on white sheets can't legitimately be described as racist

This actually seems to be a pretty common albeit grievously erroneous viewpoint. I have to admit that without CFC, I wouldn't have fully realized how common this viewpoint is... the whole thing just seemed so ideologically impossible to me... But now that I recognize this viewpoint, a lot of statements people have made and were making just started to make a lot more sense... not that they were correct, but just that I could comprehend them whereas before I just couldn't fathom what they were talking about.

 

[Farm Boy]

This is coming up in the Berkley Riots thread, and I think it helps to try and tease where it comes from even if it's a "berzerk button" or whatever. People have loyalties. Or credibility. Or whatever you want to call it, and they'll believe the people they extend credibility to. Which I would guess is largely people they feel some loyalty for. If you want people to actually call out their brothers, neighbors, cousins, or coworkers: or even to simply stop extending them "comfort and aid," then you need to shift their loyalties/credibility more towards people who are probably mostly an outgroup against people who are their ingroup. You need to demonize certain behaviors, and "racist" is largely that term in use, and you need some measure of sympathy and understanding from the outgroup. That's probably one of the ways "SJWism" or whatever actually does harm. If Boots keeps coming back to thinking that zeitgeist is impactful, I'm inclined to think something is there. Liberal use and application of the term "racist" to white people in general, when they use that term to call out people and behaviors they wish to exorcise and shun, knocks off the rails the loyalty/credibility cycle that we're actually trying to build.

Yes, no, thoughts Sommer? Too much afternoon coffee?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

The use of the word 'conspiracy' here is a rather pathetic strawman.

If you want to deny the idea that there are elements within the Democratic Party that are sometimes at odds, go right ahead. You're the one who's being delusional, not me.



Yeah, I believed this crap when they told me that I should support Hillary and she would appeal to the moderates and all would be well. I don't anymore. Again, if your attitude is reflective of the attitudes of those running the Democratic Party I don't believe they're going to win bigly in any elections any time soon.
But I guess we shall see.



That's utterly delusional. Ellison was smeared with the brush of Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam and anti-Semitism. That was basically why he lost. And those were clearly attacks that would never have even come up if Ellison weren't a Muslim. To me what you're saying here is essentially the same as saying Birtherism had nothing to do with Obama's race.

How is the reverb in the echo chamber?

 

[sophie]

How is the reverb in the echo chamber?

We'll you're on #fiddy too so O_O

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Fivechairs

 

[Sommerswerd]

Yes, no, thoughts Sommer? Too much afternoon coffee?

More like too much Friday afternoon work to be done... had to check out and buckle down... like you said before... health insurance and stability ... mama need new clothes... baby need new shoes... roll dice roll... and all of these things...

To answer your other question. I try really hard to avoid that, even when I feel it strongly sometimes, because like you said, its a berzerk button and then everything shuts down and I can't learn anything... but the ironic thing is, that for all my bobbing, weaving and bile swallowing just to avoid the berzerk buttons and keep the conversation going... I still have "the method"... can't help it, cause its second nature at this point, which in-and-of-itself is a berserk button, right? People just can't stand to be confronted with the cold hard truth that their arguments and positions are dogsqueeze... make no sense... can't be justified... contradict other things they've already said... and so on. So then that becomes the berserk button instead of the other thing and you're left thinking... hmmph, I guess I should have just called him an X-ist and let him go crying to mama, instead of wasting all that time trying to hear him out... Only to have him accuse me of not listening and go crying to mama... I guess its like that old candy jingle (paraphrasing)... sometimes you feel like a snowflake, sometimes you don't.

Is that what you were talking about?

How is the reverb in the echo chamber?

Hello ... Hello ... Hello... Hello... Hello

Sounds good to me

 

[Farm Boy]

It's at least part of it! I try not to overestimate the amount that I actually have a grasp on when it comes to addressing a point. Sometimes I simply want to see where the people I extend credibility to stand when presented with a thought. It's not always the same rabbit hole and doesn't need to be. Kinda a nonanswer, I know.

 

[onejayhawk]

This is such an astoundingly ignorant statement that it makes it clear why you are incapable of intelligent discussion. I know you're basically trying to cover for your own biases by claiming that anything short of putting on white sheets can't legitimately be described as racist, because you do it all the time, but suffice it to say that you have no idea what racism is all about if you honestly believe that this is a true statement.

This is not ignorant, it's arrogant. Get off your high horse and join the world.

Everyone is racist, homophobic, sexist, ageist, etc. That is not the end of it. When I say that racism is not a principle motivator, I mean that. I do not mean that racist inclinations do not exist, just that they are not the primary push. You act as if you were immune to bigotry, which somehow gives you the moral high-ground to criticize. In fact it just means you are blind to how you are doing it yourself.

J

 

[Lexicus]

This is not ignorant, it's arrogant. Get off your high horse and join the world.

Everyone is racist, homophobic, sexist, ageist, etc. That is not the end of it. When I say that racism is not a principle motivator, I mean that. I do not mean that racist inclinations do not exist, just that they are not the primary push. You act as if you were immune to bigotry, which somehow gives you the moral high-ground to criticize. In fact it just means you are blind to how you are doing it yourself.

J

Do you think none of us notice how it went from "motivator" to "principle [sic] motivator"?

 

[Sommerswerd]

This is not ignorant, it's arrogant. Get off your high horse and join the world.

Everyone is racist, homophobic, sexist, ageist, etc. That is not the end of it. When I say that racism is not a principle motivator, I mean that. I do not mean that racist inclinations do not exist, just that they are not the primary push. You act as if you were immune to bigotry, which somehow gives you the moral high-ground to criticize. In fact it just means you are blind to how you are doing it yourself.

J

Ultimately, if you're taking a position you have to take a position. Saying "everyone is racist, homophobic, sexist, ageist, etc", seems similar to saying "no one" is those things... in the if-everyone-gets-a-trophy, no-one-gets-a-trophy sense. Is that your real point here? That everyone is X-ist so no one is X-ist? Because I think I remember you taking a different tack on this in the past, specifically along the lines of "everyone is X-ist, but the Democrats are more X-ist, than the Republicans."

See if that's your real point (feel free to tell me I'm strawmanning if it isn't), then the whole "everyone is X-ist" disclaimer is just empty obfuscation, right? The bottom line is you think the Democrats are the X-ist ones, because you feel that they go beyond what you see as "normal" Republican level behavior/ideology. Everyone thinks this way, its normal, but the Democrats really take it over the line of what's excusable...right?

OTOH, if you really are planting your flag on the "everyone is, so no one is" position, then we are back to metalhead's point and you are basically denying the existence.

 

[metalhead]

It's time you understand that racism is nothing more than a straw man. It is not that it is not real but that it has not been a motivator for generations.

J

Everyone is racist, homophobic, sexist, ageist, etc. That is not the end of it. When I say that racism is not a principle motivator, I mean that. I do not mean that racist inclinations do not exist, just that they are not the primary push. You act as if you were immune to bigotry, which somehow gives you the moral high-ground to criticize. In fact it just means you are blind to how you are doing it yourself.

J

Do you think none of us notice how it went from "motivator" to "principle [sic] motivator"?

I'm going to go ahead and claim that this 30 yard movement of the goalposts is a tacit admission from J that I was right, and it was astoundingly ignorant to try to say that racism doesn't motivate people's (political) behavior.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

We're past measuring the location of the goal post in yards my friend.

Try light years.

Spoiler :

Note to self: stop being a nerd.

 

[Lexicus]

Nope, no physical measure of distance makes sense, what happened is that J actually tore a hole in spacetime and the goalposts are either in an alternate dimension or nowhere.