Sarin
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Y'know, the last House and presidential elections here actually gave me a glimmer of hope that actual democracy can work. US politics look like a madhouse compared to that.
2024 Election: 2023 Edition
- Thread starter Birdjaguar
- Start date
Y'know, the last House and presidential elections here actually gave me a glimmer of hope that actual democracy can work. US politics look like a madhouse compared to that.
Lexicus
Deity
Ah, we hit the conspiracy theories pretty quick I see.
The problem with it is it's controlled completely by the rich. Adding more parties doesn't solve that.
Sarin
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Not really, it lowers the entry bar significantly. You don't need to compete for slots within one of the two parties, you can make your own or go independent with actual chance of success. Case in point, our president-elect (inauguration is in few days) who was nominated, ran the campaign and won without relying on any political party. I took a look at numbers, in 2016, Trump paid over 5$ per vote and over 10$ in 2020, here it was about 50 cents. Even adjusted for economic difference between countries, it's incomparable.
In US presidential elections it is all about electoral votes and minority parties won't win those. They just tip the balance against the party they left.
Sarin
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We have actual popular vote without all the gerrymandering and electoral college. Much better IMO.
I get the "supposed to", but from a democratic point of view it does it really badly. In many states you do not get a say in the primaries unless you are a member of the party, which is obviously undemocratic. Doing the horse trading before the voter gets a say just seems broken.
I would put the fault more on FPTP that the two party system, but one comes from the other, right?
RulerOfDaPeople
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I'm hugely in favor of a 3rd Party rising to prominence much in the same way Lincoln's Republican Party came from a fusion of Whigs and Abolitionists, but not now. Now is not the time. Just like the original posts suggests, now is not the time to split the vote because it is literally a choice between the continuation of Democracy, or Authoritarianism/Totalitarianism. When a candidate is on record saying he wants to do away with the Constitution and people still support him blindly, there's a problem.
My ideal candidate would be someone like Charlie Baker, but he's too smart to run. Nobody with any common sense wants to run in this mess of a political climate. The GOP has put itself in a box in a corner. The base has turned into radicalized Fascists and no one who can win the general election has any shot of winning the primary. And any one who wins the primary has no shot of winning the general election. Trump is a loser. And he just can't stand being a loser, so rather than taking responsibility for his flaws, he points the finger everywhere else and takes a scorched earth approach... just like totalitarians do in other parts of the world.
Also it should be mentioned that some foreign propaganda is on record on their nightly state run TV, stating they were waiting to "help partner trump."
And then we have the Fox News libel case where they are on record with texts and a audio of their Zoom call (after they correctly called Arizona and received backlash from snowflake offended Trump supporters) that they lied to their audience because their ratings were sinking. So according to their own hosts and to their own owner, they put prophet over the truth and played to peoples FEELINGS rather than reporting the actual news and truth. I don't see that business model going away any time soon even if they do lose their case and have to pay over billions of dollars in damages to Dominion.
Also, my posting history from 2007 onward proves I'm no liberal. This message board has reciepts.
My ideal candidate would be someone like Charlie Baker, but he's too smart to run. Nobody with any common sense wants to run in this mess of a political climate. The GOP has put itself in a box in a corner. The base has turned into radicalized Fascists and no one who can win the general election has any shot of winning the primary. And any one who wins the primary has no shot of winning the general election. Trump is a loser. And he just can't stand being a loser, so rather than taking responsibility for his flaws, he points the finger everywhere else and takes a scorched earth approach... just like totalitarians do in other parts of the world.
Also it should be mentioned that some foreign propaganda is on record on their nightly state run TV, stating they were waiting to "help partner trump."
And then we have the Fox News libel case where they are on record with texts and a audio of their Zoom call (after they correctly called Arizona and received backlash from snowflake offended Trump supporters) that they lied to their audience because their ratings were sinking. So according to their own hosts and to their own owner, they put prophet over the truth and played to peoples FEELINGS rather than reporting the actual news and truth. I don't see that business model going away any time soon even if they do lose their case and have to pay over billions of dollars in damages to Dominion.
Also, my posting history from 2007 onward proves I'm no liberal. This message board has reciepts.
Sarin
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It doesn't look like it's going to get better.
Right now, the time is right for a moderate Republican 3rd party.
They rigged them so well that the people who won the most delegates also won the nomination.
MrRandomGuy
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The only reason the 2 party system exists in the United States is because both Democrats and Republicans work together to lobby and suppress any other party from running through the Commission on Public Debates (CPD.) Since the year 2000, a presidential candidate must have 15% support across five national polls in order to qualify for being part of a presidential debate. Third parties in the United States do exist. The Libertarian party is somewhat popular amongst people who don't like either Democrat or Republican. But no Libertarian candidate could ever get 15% support through five national polls. Any that could would run as Democrat or Republican because that's essentially who gets elected. It's a cycle that pretty much guarantees both parties have the power to run things in the country.
In Georgia we saw people vote for Republican candidates in 2020 for things other than the presidential election, but did not vote for president. Most Americans would rather not vote at all than vote third party. And that's due to the cultural brainwashing Dems and Reps have been able to do to America.
As for 2024, If Tantrum Trump is even allowed in the Republican presidential primary our democracy is doomed. There will come a time when another candidate will follow Tantrum Trump's lead and succeed in a coup attempt where he failed. There's no point in having laws barring people from office if they are not followed, especially someone as dangerous and deranged as Tantrum Trump. He needs to be put in prison now.
For those who disagree, answer these very simple questions. Why did Tantrum Trump sit on his hands watching Fox News as January 6th happened instead of call for reinforcements? Why wasn't he whisked away to a more secure location like he was in the summer of 2020? No gullible supporter of Tantrum Trump will answer this question honestly. They will deflect to Pelosi and mention Tantrum Trump preauthorized the national guard. Except he didn't. There's no documentation of it. Multiple members of Tantrum Trump's own administration were unaware of such an order. Also, we have video evidence that Pelosi called for reinforcements. I've seen gullible Tantrum Trump supporters claim doctored video, but funny enough we have Republican congressmen in the video and that fact alone refutes such nonsense. Gullible supporters will also deflect to the summer rioting. I've asked gullible supporters to explain how temporary unplanned violence by a disorganized group of people throughout the country is worse than a calculated plot to execute elected officials as well as stash weapons around the DC area in preparation for Marshal Law. They can't answer that question honestly either and deflect to something else like Hunter Biden's laptop. The laptop is a red herring whenever someone has nothing to bring to the table. I ask what Hunter is doing that is damaging the country. None can ever answer, or if they mention things like nepotism I remind them that Tantrum Trump's own children were employed in the white house and were unqualified for their positions.
The bottom line here is this. Criticize Biden all you want. Criticize the Democrats all you want. But at least pay attention to what's going on. Look at multiple sources, preferably as neutral as possible. We have one party who participates in extreme election denial to such a degree that they are in open and plain sight putting 2020 election deniers on the ballots of public office. There, these election deniers will attempt to change the rules of elections in an effort to get their party to win. Not in an effort to make sure someone with the most votes wins. And indeed, much of the election denial for states such as Philly and Arizona are all because of republican state legislatures changing the rules. Why does it take so long for Arizona to be counted in elections? Because Republicans wanted it that way so they can turn around and say "hey this isn't right there's still counting going on we should know by now!" A gullible supporter on Facebook was shocked to learn that Philly state legislature was Republican in 2020. When I gave him the basic information to prove it, he disappeared from the argument. I challenge anyone to find me something Democrats are doing that is intentionally and maliciously harming our country worse than what Republicans are doing right now. You can't find anything worse than attempting to destabilize our democracy from the ground up. Period.
In Georgia we saw people vote for Republican candidates in 2020 for things other than the presidential election, but did not vote for president. Most Americans would rather not vote at all than vote third party. And that's due to the cultural brainwashing Dems and Reps have been able to do to America.
As for 2024, If Tantrum Trump is even allowed in the Republican presidential primary our democracy is doomed. There will come a time when another candidate will follow Tantrum Trump's lead and succeed in a coup attempt where he failed. There's no point in having laws barring people from office if they are not followed, especially someone as dangerous and deranged as Tantrum Trump. He needs to be put in prison now.
For those who disagree, answer these very simple questions. Why did Tantrum Trump sit on his hands watching Fox News as January 6th happened instead of call for reinforcements? Why wasn't he whisked away to a more secure location like he was in the summer of 2020? No gullible supporter of Tantrum Trump will answer this question honestly. They will deflect to Pelosi and mention Tantrum Trump preauthorized the national guard. Except he didn't. There's no documentation of it. Multiple members of Tantrum Trump's own administration were unaware of such an order. Also, we have video evidence that Pelosi called for reinforcements. I've seen gullible Tantrum Trump supporters claim doctored video, but funny enough we have Republican congressmen in the video and that fact alone refutes such nonsense. Gullible supporters will also deflect to the summer rioting. I've asked gullible supporters to explain how temporary unplanned violence by a disorganized group of people throughout the country is worse than a calculated plot to execute elected officials as well as stash weapons around the DC area in preparation for Marshal Law. They can't answer that question honestly either and deflect to something else like Hunter Biden's laptop. The laptop is a red herring whenever someone has nothing to bring to the table. I ask what Hunter is doing that is damaging the country. None can ever answer, or if they mention things like nepotism I remind them that Tantrum Trump's own children were employed in the white house and were unqualified for their positions.
The bottom line here is this. Criticize Biden all you want. Criticize the Democrats all you want. But at least pay attention to what's going on. Look at multiple sources, preferably as neutral as possible. We have one party who participates in extreme election denial to such a degree that they are in open and plain sight putting 2020 election deniers on the ballots of public office. There, these election deniers will attempt to change the rules of elections in an effort to get their party to win. Not in an effort to make sure someone with the most votes wins. And indeed, much of the election denial for states such as Philly and Arizona are all because of republican state legislatures changing the rules. Why does it take so long for Arizona to be counted in elections? Because Republicans wanted it that way so they can turn around and say "hey this isn't right there's still counting going on we should know by now!" A gullible supporter on Facebook was shocked to learn that Philly state legislature was Republican in 2020. When I gave him the basic information to prove it, he disappeared from the argument. I challenge anyone to find me something Democrats are doing that is intentionally and maliciously harming our country worse than what Republicans are doing right now. You can't find anything worse than attempting to destabilize our democracy from the ground up. Period.
