Tribe meets white people for the first time

[Narz]

Placebo effects and drug interactions are important things to know in medicine. Common sense is seldom good enough.

The placebo effect isn't very well known or understand even by most of the modern population. Of course it is understand by the educated. Just as it is understood by the medicine men & healers in tribes. They know what they do is a mix of effective treatment & showmanship (pretending to remove spirits, pretending to pull feathers out of a person's wound, etc.). One might even go so far as to say the "primitive" medicinal experts are more keenly aware of the placebo effect whereas your average modern doctor probably forgets it more often than not, carelessly giving diagnoses without thinking carefully about how his presentation of the diagnosis will affect the patient (often invoking the nocebo effect with statements like "well, you probably have six-months to life", etc.).

There are a lot of considerations for a clinical trial. A representative sample, ethical concerns...one could write multiple dissertations on the subject.

Nonetheless, if you just randomly choose compounds to test you'll find a successful one like once in a hundred years. As I've said knowing what to test is the more important thing.

I've not comparing the medical knowledge of tribal people to the vast body of knowledge we have today but I'm saying you're wrong in saying aboriginal knowledge of medicinal plants & whatnot is worthless.

 

[Narz]

You are quite correct. My concern is with how meaningful the achievements of tribal societies are, in terms of ideas that cause profound changes (hopefully for the better) that last a long time.

Well, many "modern" ideas (be fruitful & multiple, humans are special, the Earth doesn't matter just the hereafter, the individual is paramount to any sense of responsibility to the whole, manifest destiny, growth is always good & can always continue, etc.) are causing profound changes for the worse. Many of these ideas are rooted in the Abrahamic religions which are as fanciful as any animistic spirituality & far more damaging because there focus is on the afterlife rather than stewardship of the natural world which sustains us.

The best of modern life is the ability to learn from all of humanity. Embodied here in this Internet forum, sites like wikipedia & scholars, scientists, engineers, artists, layman, etc. being able to share ideas & collaboratively expand upon both new & ancient ideas.

Ultimately hopefully we can continue the intellectual/moral expansion of our modern age with the sustainability of pre-industrial humans. If we can't we're pretty much screwed as a species.

 

[NiRv4n4]

Leave them be; no real reason to open them up to society (immigrants being much more easy to train for work than people who have never seen electricity). The children, well, there are certain decisions I guess the tribe leaders should be in charge of haha.

 

[Hygro]

I swear, I did not notice. I will take me thinking of the same article as you as a compliment though.

(edit: compliment on my part if that wasn't clear)

It's all good, and actually I enjoyed that you also linked it. Still felt like giving you some hay for it.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

The placebo effect isn't very well known or understand even by most of the modern population. Of course it is understand by the educated. Just as it is understood by the medicine men & healers in tribes. They know what they do is a mix of effective treatment & showmanship (pretending to remove spirits, pretending to pull feathers out of a person's wound, etc.). One might even go so far as to say the "primitive" medicinal experts are more keenly aware of the placebo effect whereas your average modern doctor probably forgets it more often than not, carelessly giving diagnoses without thinking carefully about how his presentation of the diagnosis will affect the patient (often invoking the nocebo effect with statements like "well, you probably have six-months to life", etc.).

You really didn't demonstrate that their treatments are better than placebo. I like how you skipped over drug interactions too (because it's not reported, it doesn't exist, am I right?). Somehow I don't think they have the capability to show which compound displays which side effects, probably attributing them to something else.

As I've said knowing what to test is the more important thing.

So, which society has high-throughput screening and chemical databases again? Randomly testing stuff doesn't strike me as particularly knowledgeable. They can point out plants that are candidates, but most of the work is still with the modern drug discovery process. I don't know how one could "steal" knowledge that they never could have had.

 

[Old Hippy]

So, which society has high-throughput screening and chemical databases again? Randomly testing stuff doesn't strike me as particularly knowledgeable.

randomly selling stuff dosn't strike as much different

FDA pulls more than 500 drugs off market

By ANDREW POLLACK • New York Times

The Food and Drug Administration on Wednesday ordered the removal from the market of more than 500 prescription drugs used to treat colds, coughs and allergies because the medications had never gone through a federal review of their safety and effectiveness.

"We don't know what's in them, whether they work properly or how they are made," Deborah Autor, the director of the office of compliance in the FDA's drug division

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

Post-market surveillance isn't random, it's Phase IV of clinical trials. Also, another thing tribal societies don't have, along with regulatory boards such as the FDA.

 

[Old Hippy]

Post-market surveillance isn't random, it's Phase IV of clinical trials. Also, another thing tribal societies don't have, along with regulatory boards such as the FDA.

tribal societies might not.... but no way can one say that we don't have all the ways of the tribal society

we have all the alternate medicine available, including faith healing, wacko crystal healing, they still sell flimsy wire pyramids to sleep under for your well being, in NY city people sell and buy charm necklaces with blue gems to keep the evil eye away and i haven't even mentioned the belief in prayer yet....

you might have this high idealized view of a post modernity society... but i think you confuse it with the society you actually live in....

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

we have all the alternate medicine available, including faith healing, wacko crystal healing, they still sell flimsy wire pyramids to sleep under for your well being, in NY city people sell and buy charm necklaces with blue gems to keep the evil eye away and i haven't even mentioned the belief in prayer yet....

We have scientists and experts who advise against using such treatments. I doubt the same exists for tribal societies. That Supplementary, Complementary, and Alternative Medicine exists does not negate the power of actual, modern medicine. Also, isn't it appeals to nature and the wisdom of such tribals that help prop up stuff such as herbalism and naturopathy?

 

[Graceheart the Leopard]

And this is relevant how?

 

[Old Hippy]

We have scientists and experts who advise against using such treatments. I doubt the same exists for tribal societies. That Supplementary, Complementary, and Alternative Medicine exists does not negate the power of actual, modern medicine. Also, isn't it appeals to nature and the wisdom of such tribals that help prop up stuff such as herbalism and naturopathy?

so we do it because we are wise post modernists they do it because .... they don't know any better....

I supose this is why our society also uses smack.... and they don't

 

[Narz]

You really didn't demonstrate that their treatments are better than placebo.

Evolution favors treatments that work over ones that don't. Even monkeys have herbal knowledge (instinct) & can treat themselves for parasites & the like. Why would people use treatments that don't work. Are you really saying that no medical knowledge existed until a few hundred years ago?

I like how you skipped over drug interactions too (because it's not reported, it doesn't exist, am I right?). Somehow I don't think they have the capability to show which compound displays which side effects, probably attributing them to something else.

Drug interactions are more of a problem with isolated compounds. With herbs you learn pretty quickly which do not blend well together.

Randomly testing stuff doesn't strike me as particularly knowledgeable.

I wouldn't say it's random. Plants have different species & you can generalize & make informed guesses & tests.

Also, isn't it appeals to nature and the wisdom of such tribals that help prop up stuff such as herbalism and naturopathy?

In your imagination perhaps (and nice little tactic lumping herbalism with naturopathy ). Herbs have compounds that are studied. When I take something like ashwagandha I don't take it because of any such strawman appeals, I take it because the research on suggests it has beneficial effects.

I don't know how one could "steal" knowledge that they never could have had.

I see I'm wasting my time.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

Evolution favors treatments that work over ones that don't. Even monkeys have herbal knowledge (instinct) & can treat themselves for parasites & the like. Are you really saying that no medical knowledge existed until a few hundred years ago?

No, you are still not showing me that they went beyond "I'm feeling better since I took this herb, so it has to have been this herb that made me better." You know, the point of testing against placebo. I like my medicine to have a better basis than post hoc ergo propter hoc. Though I'm curious, where are these human herbal instincts encoded in our genes? I would think that they are better passed through oral tradition.

Drug interactions are more of a problem with isolated compounds. With herbs you learn pretty quickly which do not blend well together.

Actually basic chemistry would tell you that it's more of a problem, considering herbs have thousands of chemical compounds comprising them. Telling me that the chance for side-reactions is lower flies in the face of good logic.

I wouldn't say it's random. Plants have different species & you can generalize & make informed guesses & tests.

Fair enough. But still not as much finesse as current drug discovery.

When I take something like ashwagandha I don't take it because of any such strawman appeals, I take it because the research on suggests it has beneficial effects.

Good to hear you listen to the science. Some people don't, and take herbs that haven't been validated by research.

so we do it because we are wise post modernists they do it because .... they don't know any better....

I supose this is why our society also uses smack.... and they don't

No, people who use SCAM do it because they are ill-informed. Ill-informed people will always be a problem in any society. But educational institutions help to mitigate that somewhat. And no, opiates are pretty old drugs.

 

[Narz]

No, you are still not showing me that they went beyond "I'm feeling better since I took this herb, so it has to have been this herb that made me better." You know, the point of testing against placebo.

For the tenth time, I'm not denying the value of testing for proof of effectiveness. I'm just saying knowing what to test is important also otherwise you're just testing random pine needles & maple leaves with little chance of finding anything important no matter how rigorous your testing.

I like my medicine to have a better basis than post hoc ergo propter hoc. Though I'm curious, where are these human herbal instincts encoded in our genes? I would think that they are better passed through oral tradition.

It's probably deeper than that since even animals are known to use medicine.

Actually basic chemistry would tell you that it's more of a problem, considering herbs have thousands of chemical compounds comprising them. Telling me that the chance for side-reactions is lower flies in the face of good logic.

Yes but they are in low concentrations. The whole point of a drug is concentrating a dose in a far higher amount than would be found in nature.

Fair enough. But still not as much finesse as current drug discovery.

Perhaps but it's paved the way for it.

Good to hear you listen to the science. Some people don't, and take herbs that haven't been validated by research.

But that shouldn't be equated with the science of herbalism or botany. That's like saying some scientific studies are of dubious merit because they're sponsored by certain industries. That shouldn't make people question all science or independent science. People can misunderstand any kind of science and come to wrong conclusions.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

For the tenth time, I'm not denying the value of testing for proof of effectiveness. I'm just saying knowing what to test is important also otherwise you're just testing random pine needles & maple leaves with little chance of finding anything important no matter how rigorous your testing.

Knowing what to test is merely the first step in drug discovery. I can't believe how much you're harping on about that. If your drug candidate does not work in testing, it is disposed of. End of story.

It's probably deeper than that since even animals are known to use medicine.

Not seeing human instincts here. You have already told me animals use medicines. Stop wasting my time.

Yes but they are in low concentrations. The whole point of a drug is concentrating a dose in a far higher amount than would be found in nature.

Side-reactions don't stop just because concentrations are low. And a concentrated single compound is easier to test for interactions that a whole medley of compounds in varying concentrations.

But that shouldn't be equated with the science of herbalism or botany. That's like saying some scientific studies are of dubious merit because they're sponsored by certain industries. That shouldn't make people question all science or independent science. People can misunderstand any kind of science and come to wrong conclusions.

Herbs that work simply become "medicine". Do you deny that there are SCAM practitioners out there that prescribe non-validated herbal treatments? I don't see how those aren't called "herbalism".

 

[innonimatu]

If only this tribe was in Greece their problem would have a simple solution: arrest them all for killing monkeys with stones, or whatever. The immoral scum! And dangerously violent also, no doubt.

 

[Old Hippy]

No, people who use SCAM do it because they are ill-informed. Ill-informed people will always be a problem in any society. But educational institutions help to mitigate that somewhat. And no, opiates are pretty old drugs.

just like tobaco... see you compared societies..., so its only fair to compare societies, maybe we could compare obesity in children from our high tech, wise, post modernist postion and see how the tribals are doing...

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

Funnily enough even the obese children will have a higher life expectancy. And then they'll go on to achieve things the tribals cannot.

 

[Old Hippy]

Funnily enough even the obese children will have a higher life expectancy. And then they'll go on to achieve things the tribals cannot.

like smoking tobaco and using crack and, worshipping one of the great gods and some might even use aromatherapy if they don't waste their money on the first examples... all the while reading their horoscope in the paper.... never understanding the simplicty of war... someone gets killed, the losing side then has to put on a pork BBQ for the winners in 3 months time...

 

[Commodore]

like smoking tobaco and using crack and, worshipping one of the great gods and some might even use aromatherapy if they don't waste their money on the first examples... all the while reading their horoscope in the paper.... never understanding the simplicty of war... someone gets killed, the losing side then has to put on a pork BBQ for the winners in 3 months time...

Yes, because all of our children are tobacco-addicted crackheads .