TT01: Beating Demigod

ThinkTank

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I want to get this game. I'm an emperor level player and I want to get up. All the way to Sid, actually, but let's take one step at a time, and reserve Sid for TT03 :). So I want to try an SG at demigod level. Any monarch/emperor level or stronger players are welcome to join.

Game settings: Dutch, standard, continents, 70%, normal, temperate, 5 billion, roaming barbs, 7 random opponents.
VC: conquest.

Roster:
ThinkTank
Bucephalus
TheOverseer417
DWetzel
templar_x
killerkid - will join in August
Doug.Lefelhocz - retired
 
I don't have time for an SG, but if you can play emperor on a pangea, I'd recommend iroquois on continents or pangea instead. It's quite a bit different than emperor, but if you try it on arch, you lose many of the things that make it different, like the fun of having the AI build cities twice as fast as you are used to and crowding you ;)
 
...if you try it on arch, you lose many of the things that make it different, like the fun of having the AI build cities twice as fast as you are used to and crowding you ;)
True, but it's one way of creating a step in between Emperor and Demigod. And how do you know you're alone on an island? There could well be a couple of others there that want to crowd you out.

I will likely not join in. I'm unfamiliar with playing SG's. I'd like to get my feet wet first in Overseer's one.
 
I'd like to join, but I will be away at camp for most of July and on vacation next week.

So, I could squeeze in a set or two the last week of June, and if the SG is on the slow side, I'll be able to play in August.

So, don't count me as a full player, but when I have computer access I can play.

As for a civ, Dutch Arch-Standard is fine for me. Byzantines would also be good too, as the Dutch's Agricultural trait is sort of wasted. This is because there aren't going to be many rivers on the archipelago.
 
I think I might be interested... but what victory conditions do you have in mind? Do you plan to play more as a warmonger or as a builder? And do we plan to build the Great Library, or dare we try and keep up in tech without it?
 
I don't have time for an SG, but if you can play emperor on a pangea, I'd recommend iroquois on continents or pangea instead. It's quite a bit different than emperor, but if you try it on arch, you lose many of the things that make it different, like the fun of having the AI build cities twice as fast as you are used to and crowding you ;)

True, but it's one way of creating a step in between Emperor and Demigod.

This is the reason why I choose arch, but AutomatedTeller has a point. If you want to master a new level it's probably best to face that level head-on. So continents is fine by me. In that case, the Dutch may not be the best tribe anymore, although the 3 turn curraghs give you a better chance of being the first to contact the other continent, which can be a very powerful advantage (for tech trade and for engineering war happiness through phony wars).

For now, I'll change the settingsto continents, standard, Dutch. (OP updated).

I think I might be interested... but what victory conditions do you have in mind? Do you plan to play more as a warmonger or as a builder? And do we plan to build the Great Library, or dare we try and keep up in tech without it?

In principle, I will roll some good starts and we take it from there, just win is good enough for me, with whatever VC. I'm not sure that playing demigod builder style is in general a good approach, since getting time to build implies not being attacked by the AI, which implies being relatively strong, which we won't be for the start of the game and some considerable time after that. I think it will take some amount of war to get us from being backward to being one of the guys.

As for the GLib, if we can get that it would be fine, but it is not something I want to center the strategy on. I prefer a strategy that initially will follow a minimal research and trade approach, like the zero science game we did in SGFN04, with accidental fast research periods for getting a hight trade value tech. The GLib can fit into this strategy, but it won't be a disaster if we do not get it.
 
I've rolled some starts. Standard, continents, 70%, normal, temperate, 5 billion, roaming barbs, 7 random opponents.

Start 1.





Start 2.





Start 3.





Start 4.





Start 5.



 

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  • William of the Dutch - start 1 - 4000 BC.SAV
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  • William of the Dutch - start 2 - 4000 BC.SAV
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Still lurking here, but tempted. Good starts. Some starts seem to warrant a move before settling.
Start #2, with the Wheat; settler move 1 west to get him off the Wheat, worker starts irrigating Wheat, moves straight on to pop hut before warrior is built? (that would because you can't pop barbs if you even't yet got a military unit). No coastal start. Coastal might be better.
Start #3; settler 1 NW, obviously. Seems to be on a landtip, this one.
Start #4; I don't know what I would do here.
Start #5; +5 food once the forest game is chopped. Happiness from the Furs. I would fancy this one.
 
lurker's comment: On Start #2, just move NE and you're still coastal, plus you still keep both wheats and you can pop the goody hut upon settling, making it safe.

It's coastal because the game always makes you start on saltwater (coast or simply a big lake) and so, even if you move, you're still adjacent to the water, so you get the Seafaring bonus.

(I'd love to join, but I don't fancy SGs :undecide:)

Lastly, if it's not too much trouble, could I have the save for Start #1 and Start #2? :)
 
ansar is right, and I checked it in the save, start 2 is coastal, i.e. the water E and E-SE of the settler is salt.

Start 1-4 have 2 food bonuses and being agri we need only 1 of them (cow/wheat/deer) for a 4 turn settler factory (given enough shields). This implies the second food bonus can be used by our second town, this possibly could be a worker factory. (It's not clear that start 1 would support using the second bonus by the second town.) With start 2, there appears to be something in the fog 2SE of the settler, possibly a lux or another wheat.

Start 5 has only 1 bonus but a lux instead of the 2nd food bonus. A 4 turner is possible here too by chopping the forest with the deer and irrigating it. Morover there is a fair amount of chopppable wood (3 right away and another 4 in the fog), which is not so for the other starts, which have only 1 or 2 forests.

I'm sort of hesitating between 2 and 5. If the thing in the fog in start 2 is a lux then I'd prefer that. If it is another wheat then probably too. Then there is another argment for start 2, and that is the number of river tiles. In start 2 I see 10 river tiles, in start 5 only 6

Ok, I think I convinced myself that start 2 is the best. :) I also prefer Ansar's suggestion to move the settler NE.
 
"I'm not sure that playing demigod builder style is in general a good approach, since getting time to build implies not being attacked by the AI, which implies being relatively strong, which we won't be for the start of the game and some considerable time after that."

No, you don't have to have a strong army to maintain peace on Demigod. I've done this basically twice alread, and gotten far enough into demigod games peacefully other times also. I've played far enough into Deity games to realize that you don't have to have a strong army there either to maintain peaceful relations... at least not usually. You might have to do something which makes you feel uncomfortable pyschologically at first. You can find the basic strategy for this here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=122419

Also, if you think playing builder a weak approach on Demigod or Deity you might want to see the size of the AIs armies before you set that in stone.

For starts 2 and 3 we have the possiblity of 2 4-turn settler factors as the Dutch. We'll get more production from the cows in start 3 than the wheats in start 2. Also, for start 3 if we choose not to set up two settler factories and moved NorthWest or West with the barbarians, eventually we can have a 4-turn warrior+settler factory in the capital... or if we have another grassland wheat or cow near enough nearby we'd have our 2 4 turn settler factory, with the capital eventually becoming a 4 turn warrior+settler factory. I'd take two settler factories over a settler factory with a luxury any day, over extra forest chops, and over a *possible* extra river city in the first couple square... especially when considering the fact that AIs ALREADY have an extra settler to start with... so start 3 wins hands down for me.

Addendum:

Plain cows, when irrigated, only give you 3 food each. So, one 4 turn settler factory there and you have to use both cows for a settler factory. For start 4 you might use the plain cow for the second town eventually... but unless some more grassland bonuses lie around or sugar plains, the capital will have fairly low production and might not even have enough production to produce a settler every 4 turns for a while.
 
"I'm not sure that playing demigod builder style is in general a good approach, since getting time to build implies not being attacked by the AI, which implies being relatively strong, which we won't be for the start of the game and some considerable time after that."

No, you don't have to have a strong army to maintain peace on Demigod. I've done this basically twice alread, and gotten far enough into demigod games peacefully other times also. I've played far enough into Deity games to realize that you don't have to have a strong army there either to maintain peaceful relations... at least not usually. You might have to do something which makes you feel uncomfortable pyschologically at first. You can find the basic strategy for this here http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=122419

Also, if you think playing builder a weak approach on Demigod or Deity you might want to see the size of the AIs armies before you set that in stone.

I know the article. I can see that it may work often (note I said "in general") and I believe it will probably not work if we find ourself in between the Zulu, the Mongols and the Germans. Anyway, we need not decide on that now. What comes first is REX and getting to know the land and the neighbours.

"
For starts 2 and 3 we have the possiblity of 2 4-turn settler factors as the Dutch. We'll get more production from the cows in start 3 than the wheats in start 2. Also, for start 3 if we choose not to set up two settler factories and moved NorthWest or West with the barbarians, eventually we can have a 4-turn warrior+settler factory in the capital... or if we have another grassland wheat or cow near enough nearby we'd have our 2 4 turn settler factory, with the capital eventually becoming a 4 turn warrior+settler factory. I'd take that over the luxury any day.. so start 3 wins hands down for me.

What if you factor in the thing in the fog for start 2 as well as the amount of river tiles?
 
I'll just stay lurking. Yeah, I'm completely with you guys on start #2 then. I was wrongly assuming that was a sweet water lake. I don't think it can be a lux there in the fog, as it seems grassland. There's no lux sitting on grassland.
Start #2 could be quite central on the landmass, as you see a river coming from both sides. It might corruption wise be a better place for a capitol. Would you take that in consideration?
 
lurker's comment:

They are all great starts. :cool:

Start 2 has the advantage that it looks somewhat centrally placed for a coastal start. You are more likely to get lots of towns around the capital and not need a palace jump. FWIW I'd probably pick Start 2.

EDIT: Optional and I had the same thought. He thought it faster. :lol: Oh, and some luxes can appear on grass, such as wines.
 
"What if you factor in the thing in the fog for start 2 as well as the amount of river tiles?"

Maybe, but with two wheats and only 2 bonus grasslands in sight so far we might have under-production for 2 4 turn settler factories, since wheats don't produce shields once we irrigate them. Granted, start 2 does look very nice and I'd take it for any *regular* game I'd think of. But, if I have to pick between start 2 and start 3, I'll pick 3, for the bonus production from the cows. Even if the two wheat start, start 2, does have enough shields for 2 settler factories eventually, we can get the settler factories up and running faster in start 3.

"I can see that it may work often (note I said "in general") and I believe it will probably not work if we find ourself in between the Zulu, the Mongols and the Germans."

Believe it or not it worked until Education for me on a Deity game with the Celts *with the Mongols and the Zulus* as my neighbors. Then I baited the Zulus into declaring war on me for my Golden Age and quit after I started losing cities (I hadn't built enough knights). Although, I have used basically that strategy on an archipelago Emperor game with the Celts and shortly after my neighbors the English finished the Statue of Zeus they declared war on me, so there's another variable that might mess up Rights of Passage.

Where do all the starts lie with respect to the rest of the map (that map usually in the lower-left hand corner of the screen... I don't see it)?
 
I'm sort of hesitating between 2 and 5. If the thing in the fog in start 2 is a lux then I'd prefer that.
lurker's comment: It's silks! :)

(I found out with my fog-gazing skills)
 
Maybe, but with two wheats and only 2 bonus grasslands in sight so far we might have under-production for 2 4 turn settler factories, since wheats don't produce shields once we irrigate them. Granted, start 2 does look very nice and I'd take it for any *regular* game I'd think of. But, if I have to pick between start 2 and start 3, I'll pick 3, for the bonus production from the cows. Even if the two wheat start, start 2, does have enough shields for 2 settler factories eventually, we can get the settler factories up and running faster in start 3.

I played the REX phase of 2 test games with the same settings and in both I could get to 12 cities until there was no more room to settle. 2 settler factories is overkill for 12 cities. So we do not need 2 settler factories in this game. For a settler factory with 1 wheat tile we need 2 mined BGs, 2 mined grass, plus a 2 shield tile for the growth turn (forest or mine); for a worker factory with 1 wheat tile we just need 5 shields (at size 4, one BG and 2 normal mined grass will do). These shields we can likely get in start 2. If ansar is right and there are silks in the fog, I'd still prefer start 2 over 3.

Believe it or not it worked until Education for me on a Deity game with the Celts *with the Mongols and the Zulus* as my neighbors. Then I baited the Zulus into declaring war on me for my Golden Age and quit after I started losing cities (I hadn't built enough knights).

If the point of the strategy is not building a lot of military in favour of other improvements, then this counts as a failure I'm afraid. At least it appears that there is a subtle balance on how many military is needed. In the 2 test games, I got to the end of REX without wars in 1 game, in the other the stupid Zulu declared (a lone warrior of them took a worker).
 
[I played the REX phase of 2 test games with the same settings and in both I could get to 12 cities until there was no more room to settle. 2 settler factories is overkill for 12 cities. So we do not need 2 settler factories in this game.]

Alright... I guess you don't plan to raze and replace if you warmonger. I don't know how well this works out on demi-god, as I don't raze or try to capture... but I will say that I know the AIs have a darn good bit of culture on Demi-God (the 70% production rate AND the extra settler especially start helps), so if you capture a city and it flips I wouldn't feel surprised.

[If ansar is right and there are silks in the fog, I'd still prefer start 2 over 3.]

I haven't a clue how he guessed this. I don't know how ansar thinks seafaring makes you start coastal. They don't list that in the civilopedia, and I feel pretty sure you won't get the commerce bonus for founding a city on the lake. Maybe we have a lake, maybe a coast there... either way you can't figure this out, so you'd want to move the settler two turns north to ensure it in start 2. In start 3 you move one turn directly west and you've got it for sure.

Also, in start 3 you can get the capital up to full strength faster than you can in start 2. Maybe that doesn't matter for building settlers but if you want to build anything but workers after settlers, and possibly even after workers, it might. What... mining takes 6 turns in despotism for the Dutch, correct? Without roading anything this means that it takes 24 worker turns for the cow start (start 3), and 30 turns for the worker start to mine all the tiles you'll use at size 5 for the wheat start (start 2) (not necessary for settler's only I suppose... but I'd consider this). With roads... I usually road and mine or mine and road before my inital worker leaves a square... it'll take 36 turns for the worker to complete the cow start and 45 turns for the wheat start, because you have the whale lying out there. I'll take those 9 turns for my worker. 36 turns to get a combo factory up and running also seems like you'll have some warrior and settler combos in 4 turns going by settler 6 (that's probably generous actually... as you get 6 settlers in 24 turns... 12 for the granary and growth to size 5... WAY too fast... probably more like settler 2, 3, or 4... lots of early escorts or barbarian hunters or pre-swordsman).

Also, even if you don't *need* a second settler factory, you might want another town to build a settler or two to found those towns faster. If you irrigate instead of mining the cows, the second town might make an excellent choice for this. Although, maybe the combo factory sounds better. Of course, there's more...

For the cow start (start 3) after you've built all your settlers, especially if you have iron and want to warmonger or have some strong units lying around if you feel you need them, you can build barracks in the cow capital in 4 turns, no sweat. With the wheat start you'd have 8 OR 9 shields if you have another bonus grassland lying around. With 9 shields at size 5, you'll get 2 extra shields as you grow to size 5, so you'll draw even with the cow start... but if you have 8 shields those barracks will take you 5 turns to build. If you want a swordsman instead, it'll take a turn longer also if you have 8 shields. We don't know if we have another bonus grassland lying around.

Of course, if you want the Great Library or *any* wonders later on... starts like start 3 I think win hands down. More interestingly, with start 3 you can use the cow immediately. For the Dutch this means warrior 1 comes online at the same time your capital grows to size 2. You'll have to choose between growth and production and manange it more carefully as your capital grows with start 3 to maximize the situation.

So, to recap start 2 requires 9 or so more worker turns to get to full strength at size 5 (which you'll want eventually), slower production of early warriors and/or the granary, start 2 doesn't have a 4 turn warrior-settler factory combo possibility, start 3 has this as an actuality by settler 2 or 3 I'd say, start 2's capital starts a turn later, start 3 can probably more easily have town 2 produce a settler than start 2 if you want to irrigate and forego the combo factory, start 3 can produce wonders more quickly than start 2, start 3 assuredly will produce barracks or an early swordsman (just upgrade the warriors from the settler-factory combo in settlers 4-12 or whatever) in 4 or 3 turns once it finishes its last settler, if that's what you want. Start 2 MAY do this, while with start 3 such comes as assured. Start 3 comes as easier to micromanage efficiently. Do you want to forego all those actualities for an extra river, a hut which I'd guess will give you maps as huts get worse as you move up in general, one less commerce, and a *possible* luxury? I wouldn't... but it's your game man.

[If the point of the strategy is not building a lot of military in favour of other improvements, then this counts as a failure I'm afraid.]

No, that's not exactly the point of the strategy. I quit my game because I had some gallic swordsman and like 6 or 7 knights... not enough to fight a war with a direct neighbor on Deity without losing some cities. I might still have won the game, since I had MAs with everyone and the Mongols started coming for Shaka fairly hardcore with medieval infantry and such and the Zulus had just gotten iron a few turns earlier, which I pillaged... but that meant the city or two I lost would fall to the Mongols.

"In the 2 test games, I got to the end of REX without wars in 1 game, in the other the stupid Zulu declared"

Did you have Rights of Passage signed and have their attitudes at polite? If not, that's probably what you needed to do.
 
I don't know how ansar thinks seafaring makes you start coastal. They don't list that in the civilopedia, and I feel pretty sure you won't get the commerce bonus for founding a city on the lake. Maybe we have a lake, maybe a coast there... either way you can't figure this out, so you'd want to move the settler two turns north to ensure it in start 2. In start 3 you move one turn directly west and you've got it for sure.

I think ansar is right. Anyway I checked the save and the water is salt as it produces only 1 food, sweet water will give you 2 food.

Do you want to forego all those actualities for an extra river, a hut which I'd guess will give you maps as huts get worse as you move up in general, one less commerce, and a *possible* luxury? I wouldn't... but it's your game man.

4 extra river tiles, I don't care about the hut much but it may give us something, your conclusion about the one less commerce is wrong, as is the idea that the town would be 1 turn later, and I'm about 90% sure that the thing in the fog is a lux (again I think ansar is right here). I see your point that start 3 is better for shields. Start 2 is better for commerce.

I have no poblem with playing both saves for 20 to 40 turns and then choose. For now, let's park this discussion and see what happens if we have more players and what their opinion will be.
 
lurker's comment:
[If ansar is right and there are silks in the fog, I'd still prefer start 2 over 3.]

I haven't a clue how he guessed this.
Fog-gazing skills. You'll learn them soon. :)
I don't know how ansar thinks seafaring makes you start coastal. They don't list that in the civilopedia, and I feel pretty sure you won't get the commerce bonus for founding a city on the lake. Maybe we have a lake, maybe a coast there... either way you can't figure this out, so you'd want to move the settler two turns north to ensure it in start 2. In start 3 you move one turn directly west and you've got it for sure.
Well, seafaring will make you start directly next to a saltwater body, not freshwater (as in a lake, since you can obviously still start on a river). It's kind of the point of being seafaring... ;)
 
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