TT01: Beating Demigod

[TheOverseer714]

So are you saying that you actually prefer start 3?

I prefer cows over wheat, because the cow tile also has a shield. I think both saves require a move, so that is equal. I would say the tie breaker might be world location. Where is save 2 in the world? If it's in the middle, it will allow faster contacts. Both saves are pretty strong, and if we go with either, we'll be fine. Overall, I see more shields with save 3, so I slightly prefer save 3, but it's very close.

 

[Bucephalus]

TT has updated the starts by adding the minimaps - start 2 is looking a bit more central than 3, which is at the bottom of the map.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Ansar's fog-gazing and the minimap have broken the tie, start 2 is the best. I think it will be really great if that bottleneck alows us to have a canal there.

 

[ThinkTank]

I still think we should have a victory condition in mind, as I've learned in my current succession game that different victory conditions might favor different town locations for various reasons.

As for VC, in principle I would like to go for conquest.

I've added the minimaps in post 7

Start 2 is very central, start 3 is more towards the South.

We appear to have 2 votes for start 2 and 2 votes for start 3. I suggest I play both starts for 20 turns and then we choose. But I'd like the teams opinion on the rough initial plan.

For start 2: settler NE. Min on writing. Build plan roughly warrior-curragh-settler-warrior-worker-granary (try to MM for settler on growth to 3 if we have enough shields for that).

For start 3: settler NW. Also min on writing, and similar build plan.

Edit: crosppost wth Overseer. Now it does appear 3-1 for start 2. I suggest I play both starts anyway.

 

[Spoonwood]

We'll have more warriors available that can upgrade to swordsman with the warrior-settler combo factory in start 3. We'll also *only* have to worry about enemies coming from the north in start 3, while in start 2 we might have them from both the north and the south.

 

[DWetzel]

No worries, you're in. But I'd like to have at least 5 or 6 dedicated players to start. With killerkid out until August we need at least 3 more to start before that, 2 if we start in August.

So Overseer and DWetzel, you're absolutely welcome!

Oh, all right, twist my arm, I'm in. But put me near the back of the line.

 

[Bucephalus]

We'll have more warriors available that can upgrade to swordsman with the warrior-settler combo factory in start 3. We'll also *only* have to worry about enemies coming from the north in start 3, while in start 2 we might have them from both the north and the south.

The problem that I foresee with Warrior upgrades is that at 60g per upgrade it only becomes affordable at the expense of research.

Edit: And if Iron is not easily available we are stuck with a bunch of fairly worthless units.

 

[ThinkTank]

Oh, all right, twist my arm, I'm in. But put me near the back of the line.

Good! I've added you to the list in the OP.

 

[ThinkTank]

As for strategy, are we willing to trade away alphabet soon? Or do we need to hold on to it for a while, and if so how long?

 

[Bucephalus]

As for strategy, are we willing to trade away alphabet soon? Or do we need to hold on to it for a while, and if so how long?

I would say to wait until we know more, ie. who our opponents are, how near they are, what our land looks like beyond the start.......

 

[Bucephalus]

@TT.

I've been thinking about VC's, and while I'm happy to go along with whatever VC you prefer, I'm wondering if Space Race might offer you a more complete DG experience.

 

[ThinkTank]

I've been thinking about VC's, and while I'm happy to go along with whatever VC you prefer, I'm wondering if Space Race might offer you a more complete DG experience.

You're probably right. On the other hand, I've been in a couple of SGs lately that make want to kick some AI b... Some DG xOTM in particular. This is of course just emotion and no argument, but I'm going to follow my gut for once. At least, I think that being able to beat the AI military at DG is an important aspect of mastering that level. So let's do conquest.

@all: need to get CivAssist to work in Vista, any of you has any experience with that? It seems to have installed ok, but when I start it I get a very uninformative generic error message.

 

[TheOverseer714]

Vista, oh how we love thee.... Try posting in the Bugs and fixes forum. I'd hate to play high level civ without a program to help. I guess you could try Mapstat, see if it works with Vista. Good luck.

 

[Spoonwood]

"The problem that I foresee with Warrior upgrades is that at 60g per upgrade it only becomes affordable at the expense of research."

Well we could build the Great Library, or use those swordsman for warring to extort early techs we missed. We could use those warriors to spot out barbarian encampments and kill them. We could also forego warrior-building in most other towns, just cover our towns with a warrior or two in the garrison, and sign RoPs with everyone. We could also use those warriors as garrisons in the middle or inner towns, with spears in the outer towns where the AI might attack us.

 

[ThinkTank]

"The problem that I foresee with Warrior upgrades is that at 60g per upgrade it only becomes affordable at the expense of research."

Doug, can you please use the quote tags? For 3 reasons:

1. Putting a statement made by someone else between quotation marks without mentioning who said it, gives me the impression that you do not take that statement seriously. This is quite something else than just disagreement, which is what you want to express I think.

2. It is nice to know who said it.

3. The quote tag provides a link to the original post, which is useful to the readers.

 

[Bucephalus]

Well we could build the Great Library, or use those swordsman for warring to extort early techs we missed. We could use those warriors to spot out barbarian encampments and kill them. We could also forego warrior-building in most other towns, just cover our towns with a warrior or two in the garrison, and sign RoPs with everyone. We could also use those warriors as garrisons in the middle or inner towns, with spears in the outer towns where the AI might attack us.

Yeah, I'm familiar with the strategy, Doug, but I find it a somewhat inflexible approach; I'm not keen on putting all my eggs in one basket.


TT, are we ready for the off?

 

[ThinkTank]

TT, are we ready for the off?

We are, and I would have been playing my first set if it was not for CivAssist not working properly on Vista. I will try to play the first sets of both starts today.

 

[ThinkTank]

I've played starts 2 and 3 to 3000BC. Here are some pics and the turnlogs.

Start 2:

Spoiler :

Turnlog:

TT01, start 2

0: 4000BC
Settler NE, start mining the wheat the worker is on. We indeed have silks!

1: 3950BC
Amsterdam founded, hut pops and gives 25 g, start on curragh. Min on writing, tech slider on 10%
Do some calculations. We grow in 5. Warrior is 10, curragh 15, settler 30.
Since we are low on shields, we will be at size 10 in 10truns, but I do like 1 warrior and a curragh before the settler.
At size Amsterdam’s borders will expand at which moment we can use 2 forests for extra shields, this we will use for speeding up the settler.
So I will do curragh-warrior-settler.

2: 3900BC - zzz
3: 3850BC - zzz
4: 3800BC - zzz
5: 3750BC - zzz

IBT Amsterdam grows to 2.

6: 3700BC
Lux to 10%. Governor has selected a BG on growth which is fine for shields. I leave it like that, because if instead I would select the second wheat now we grow in 4 instead of 5,
but we lose a shield. Mine completes, start roading the wheat.

7: 3650BC- zzz

8: 3600BC - Switch BG to non-improved wheat for 1 turn, since curragh only needs 2 more shields.

9: 3550BC - Curragh completes, start warrior. Road completes, move worker to BG.

IBT - A Portugese warrior appears SE.

10: 3500BC - Dial up Portugal, they are cautious, and have Masonry and Bronze Working on us.

IBT Amsterdam grows to 3.

11: 3450BC - Lux to 20%.

IBT Warrior completes, start settler.

12: 3400BC - Our curragh locates Lisbon to the S, which has ivory. Now use the forest and the silk forest for 6spt, settler in 5. Warrior starts exploring.

13: 3350BC - zzz

14: 3300BC
Our exploring warrior meets a Persian spear in the E. Persians are annoyed, they have Masonry and Bronze Working and Warrior Code on us.
Possible 2fer: buy WC and exchange it for a tech with Portugal, but we cannot afford it (they will not sell it for 6gpt and 101g, all we have).
Curragh locates Oporto down south.

15: 3250BC - zzz
16: 3200BC - zzz

IBT Settler completes, start warrior.

17: 3150BC - zzz
18: 3100BC - zzz

IBT Warrior completes, start worker.

19: 3050BC - zzz
20: 3000BC - zzz

Lux to 0%. Rotterdam founded, starts warrior. Exploring warrior spots dye NW.
I now spot a Persian border very close to the E of Amsterdam!
Rotterdam should be MMed to use the BG for 4 turns and the wheat for 2 turns for growth in 6 and warrior in 6.
Amsterdam build orders after the worker completes are I think: warrior-granary.
Our current worker should connect silks first I think.
Portugal now has WC too, We can buy it now for 3 gpt and 80g, I think we should do that, but I leave that deal to the next player.

Start 3:

Spoiler :

TT01, start 3

0: 4000BC
Settler NW, start mining the cow, 4fpt is enough for now, we'll get 5fpt by the second cow after expansion anyway, and the extra shields is welcome.

1: 3950BC - Amsterdam founded, warrior in 5. Min on writing, tech at 10%.

2: 3900BC - zzz
3: 3850BC - zzz
4: 3800BC - zzz
5: 3750BC - zzz

IBT Warrior completes, start curragh in 4, Amsterdam grows.

6: 3700BC - Lux to 10%. Mine completes, start road.

7: 3650BC - zzz
8: 3600BC - zzz
9: 3550BC - zzz

IBT Curragh completes, settler in 8.

10: 3500BC - Start mining second cow.

IBT

11: 3450BC
Borders expand. curragh locates Sumer in NE (close). They have BW, WC and CB on us, they need alpha.
They will give 1 tech + 10 g for alpha. We do not have enough money to get a 2nd tech. We wait, we want 2 techs or else another customer.

12: 3400BC - Amsterdam has grown, settler in 5.

13: 3350BC - zzz
14: 3300BC - zzz
15: 3250BC - zzz

IBT Settler completes, start warrior.

16: 3200BC - zzz
17: 3150BC - zzz

IBT Warrior completes, start worker in2 that will complete on growth to 3.

18: 3100BC

IBT Scouting warrior meets Russian scout. They have Masonry, BW, CB and WC and lack alpha. They will give 2 techs for alpha.
Sumer has the same techs, now also will give 2 techs. Wait 1 more turn.

19: 3050BC

IBT Worker completes, start curragh.

20: 3000BC
Rotterdam founded.
The tech deals should be done right now but I have left that to the next player, we can likely get 4 techs for alpha, 2 from Sumeria 2 and from Russia.

 

[Spoonwood]

Spoiler :

Start 3 clearly works out better since we have Gilgamesh as our neighbor and we all know he's a slouch at finding new towns and in culture (which can start becoming a factor of sorts Demi-god on up, in my opinion). Why? His defensive settler escort simply costs him too much.

In all seriousness, I don't like that there exists a green town (Persian?) near Amsterdam in start 2... go figure on that extra river everyone but me seemed to like a lot, but I do like how there exists a "back-town" along the river, the dyes, the better availability of food, etc. Maybe we should go with start 3 for more of a challenge since we have Gilgy as our neighbor.

Thinktank,

Since you've said you want to go all the way up to said, have you read the write-ups of SirPleb's and Moonsinger's Hall of Fame games at that level?

 

[ThinkTank]

Since you've said you want to go all the way up to said, have you read the write-ups of SirPleb's and Moonsinger's Hall of Fame games at that level?

Yes I have, these were fantastics games. But we're not playing for the HOF here, nor are we we playing Sid (yet). What's the point of your question, actually?