Turkey in the EU

[dh_epic]

Abu Graib, the WMD fiasco and Gitmo all have one thing in common: they belong to the US (and tony blair, so pretty much again the US ).

Unfortunately, these things are in broad strokes. There is a battle going on WITHIN Islamic nations: reform, or revert to fundamentalism -- with a lot of people not really sure which is better. Every thing that a "modern" nation does to hurt Muslims will be an argument against reform, and an argument for fundamentalism. Everything that a "modern" nation does to help otherwise Muslim countries will be an argument against fundamentalism, and for reform.

A reform movement has always existed in Muslim countries, but it is constantly stunted by one thing or another.

You're probably right, though -- it's too soon to let Turkey into the EU. There's enough crap going on with the EU as is. That said, even if there wasn't, I don't think Turkey has "earned" it yet. But they should dangle the EU as a carrot.

 

[Cuivienen]

I do not see what this (even if it was true, which i highly doubt) has to do with the EU accepting a member. Surely internal unity and maintenance of the capacity to become more of a signle country in the future is more important than an absurd symbolic gesture to a fragmented muslim world.

I still fail to understand why many people seem to argue that simply increasing exposure to Europe would not make Turkey "more European". The key to modernizing Turkey is not to demand that it reform before being admitted; that just makes reactionary elements in Turkish society able to say, "We told you so, the Europeans hate us." Rather, they key is to admit Turkey to the EU and expose it further and further to the benefits of modernization, which will happen on its own and rapidly. Reactionary elements quickly become marginalized when there is nothing to react against, or when they dwindle to a tiny minority.

 

[Stapel]

EU is a cultural union, among other things. But the EU is not trying to melt national cultures into one grey "European superculture". European culture, this term's meaning, is a sum of the national cultures which are naturally related and EU is actually spending Euros to preserve and promote them.

I fail to see what's wrong with that.

Everything! It is quite dubious anyway when governments spend tax-money on cultural stuff. But I admit that's just my liberal/libertarian mindset.
But when it comes to the EU, it is impossible to define the European culture (as you pinted out yourself, iirc). Is the European culture, as the sum of the national cultures that are allegedly naturally related (I doubt that in the first place), worth spending euros on? No way. A total waste!

Anyway, I also thing EU should trade with Turkey, but that can be done without letting it in as a member. Such a move would completely destroy the fragile "culture of compromises", that allows us to move forward. Just look at Poland and its stubborness. Now multiply that by 10 and add different interests and mindset. You get Turkey in the EU.

A very valid point.
However, the EU structure (and I am still thinking of a more economical than a politcal structure here), should really drop the individual member's veto rights on certain matters.

But, as you say, another solution is to allow Turkey to sign the economical and trade treaties only. More or less like Norway does.

 

[Winner]

We need to send a powerful message that can counter the propaganda that the West is out to destroy all Muslims. Symbolism matters. Abu Gharib, the lack of WMDs, Guantanamo Bay -- those are all powerful symbols. And they're not helping the fact that things are moving in the wrong direction, and it seems like more and more Muslims think there is very little to gain by cooperating with the West.

Ah, so because Americans screw up when it comes to Public Relations, Europe has to sacrifice its future as an unified continent in a desperate attempt to appease the Muslim anger by accepting Turkey.

Jesus this is the stupidest thing I've heard this week. If they want to improve relations with the Islamic world this way, they can accept Turkey as the 51st state of their Union.

Offering Turkey a EU membership isn't the only thing we can do to try to reverse that. But it's one of the few legitimate ideas on the table right now. And even as an idea, it will involve a lot more work than just letting them in.

Turkey must finds it's own way. Expanding EU into non-European areas would not help anything, in fact, it would just destabilize the whole region. World has enough of dysfunctional international organizations already.

 

[Winner]

Everything! It is quite dubious anyway when governments spend tax-money on cultural stuff. But I admit that's just my liberal/libertarian mindset.
But when it comes to the EU, it is impossible to define the European culture (as you pinted out yourself, iirc). Is the European culture, as the sum of the national cultures that are allegedly naturally related (I doubt that in the first place), worth spending euros on? No way. A total waste!

Ah, the libertarian virus Well, others do that to. Every state fosters its national culture, it's an important part of its image.

A very valid point.
However, the EU structure (and I am still thinking of a more economical than a politcal structure here), should really drop the individual member's veto rights on certain matters.

But, as you say, another solution is to allow Turkey to sign the economical and trade treaties only. More or less like Norway does.

Yeah, that's what I mean. Trade, close partnership, but not membership. Turkey should be a respected neighbour, not a member. EU has its natural borders and we've almost reached them.

 

[Kyriakos]

Perhaps pledge to accept European Turkey if it becomes independant

See, the double-crossing west would have prevented all this mess if it actually had helped Greece in 1920-22 instead of its ussual backstabbing

 

[dh_epic]

Ah, so because Americans screw up when it comes to Public Relations, Europe has to sacrifice its future as an unified continent in a desperate attempt to appease the Muslim anger by accepting Turkey.

Jesus this is the stupidest thing I've heard this week. If they want to improve relations with the Islamic world this way, they can accept Turkey as the 51st state of their Union.

Turkey must finds it's own way. Expanding EU into non-European areas would not help anything, in fact, it would just destabilize the whole region. World has enough of dysfunctional international organizations already.

I'm not saying Europe has to sacrifice anything. But they should. Fundamentalist Islam is everybody's problem, and every country should be thinking about how to help moderates in their own countries. You're right, America did screw up, and it hasn't helped Europe either. But finger pointing and "it's your mess, you clean it up" isn't going to help anybody.

 

[Rossiya]

Perhaps pledge to accept European Turkey if it becomes independant

See, the double-crossing west would have prevented all this mess if it actually had helped Greece in 1920-22 instead of its ussual backstabbing

If you wanted Thrace that much, you could always go and get it.

 

[Sofista]

I have an idea of what European culture is; unfortunately I have a hard time outlining it clearly.

Ah, but what I can do is say: EU is meant to be the home of Europeans, which are far easier to define. The Turks, however you look at them, are not Europeans.

 

[Japanrocks12]

I still fail to understand why many people seem to argue that simply increasing exposure to Europe would not make Turkey "more European". The key to modernizing Turkey is not to demand that it reform before being admitted; that just makes reactionary elements in Turkish society able to say, "We told you so, the Europeans hate us." Rather, they key is to admit Turkey to the EU and expose it further and further to the benefits of modernization, which will happen on its own and rapidly. Reactionary elements quickly become marginalized when there is nothing to react against, or when they dwindle to a tiny minority.

agree completely with this. more modernization will limit the influence of the reactionaries while forced reform breeds resentment. either way, the milestone that I'm setting is if Turkey apologizes for its past atrocities which now it so vehemently denies. THAT would be a good first step towards admission into the EU.

 

[Winner]

I'm not saying Europe has to sacrifice anything. But they should. Fundamentalist Islam is everybody's problem, and every country should be thinking about how to help moderates in their own countries. You're right, America did screw up, and it hasn't helped Europe either. But finger pointing and "it's your mess, you clean it up" isn't going to help anybody.

Even if it COULD help combat Islamic Fundamentalism, which is not based ony anything but wishful thinking, it still wouldn't be worth sacrificing Europe's future.

It is obvious that Turkish membership would kill any hopes that the EU will develop in something more than an economic union.

 

[Verbose]

I still fail to understand why many people seem to argue that simply increasing exposure to Europe would not make Turkey "more European". The key to modernizing Turkey is not to demand that it reform before being admitted; that just makes reactionary elements in Turkish society able to say, "We told you so, the Europeans hate us." Rather, they key is to admit Turkey to the EU and expose it further and further to the benefits of modernization, which will happen on its own and rapidly. Reactionary elements quickly become marginalized when there is nothing to react against, or when they dwindle to a tiny minority.

What makes this tricky is that in Turkey it's the reactionaries who are the modernists — i.e. they want Turkey to stick it out alone in accordance with Kemal Atatürks somewhat heavy-handed conception of modernity, which is also rather Turkish-nationalist.

The political force hoping and praying for EU membership is their homegrown variety of "Muslim democrats", just like there are parties of "Christian democrats" in the politics of Germany and other EU nations.

Turkey isn't lacking in modernity. What's at stake is what kind of modernity Turkey will adopt.

 

[Winner]

agree completely with this. more modernization will limit the influence of the reactionaries while forced reform breeds resentment. either way, the milestone that I'm setting is if Turkey apologizes for its past atrocities which now it so vehemently denies. THAT would be a good first step towards admission into the EU.

Modernization can't be done from outside. EU membership would be of no consequence.

Again, hopes that the membership itself could somehow transform Turkey into a Western, European country, are vain. British (or should I say English?) are members for 30 years and they're still the stubborn eurosceptics. The only thing that mitigates this attitude is the sense of closeness to Europe. It sounds stupid at first, but it's true - British are in the EU because they don't want to separate themselves from the rest of the continent, even if it means they have to compromise. This wouldn't be possible if they didn't feel Europen. And vice versa, Europeans suffer this British troublemaker reputation because they see them as a natural part of Europe.

Turks don't think they are European and Europeans don't think Turkey is European either.

This could NEVER work, get over it.

 

[Winner]

Turkey isn't lacking in modernity. What's at stake is what kind of modernity Turkey will adopt.

Touché. I just think it has already chosen its path, and it won't lead to Europe.

 

[Japanrocks12]

Modernization can't be done from outside. EU membership would be of no consequence.

Again, hopes that the membership itself could somehow transform Turkey into a Western, European country, are vain. British (or should I say English?) are members for 30 years and they're still the stubborn eurosceptics. The only thing that mitigates this attitude is the sense of closeness to Europe. It sounds stupid at first, but it's true - British are in the EU because they don't want to separate themselves from the rest of the continent, even if it means they have to compromise. This would be possible if they didn't feel Europen. And vice versa, Europeans suffer this British troublemaker reputation because they see them as natural part of Europe.

Turks doesn't think it's European and Europeans don't think Turkey is European either.

This could NEVER work, get over it.

but why can't Turkey achieve "Westernization" prior to EU membership. It's obvious that membership alone won't do anything.

 

[Winner]

but why can't Turkey achieve "Westernization" prior to EU membership. It's obvious that membership alone won't do anything.

Westernization of a country of this size, which has a distinct culture and strong sense of patriotism is utterly impossible.

It would also be rather arrogant from us to ask them to Westernize - we know it can't be done, such a process, even if it was volutary, planned and deliberate, would take centuries. They'd have to give up one their own culture and traditions, which is even worse.

Let them be Turkish.

 

[warpus]

Turks don't think they are European and Europeans don't think Turkey is European either.

Some do, some don't, that's what this whole debate is about.

 

[Winner]

Some do, some don't, that's what this whole debate is about.

That's why this debate is pointless

 

[Verbose]

Touché. I just think it has already chosen its path, and it won't lead to Europe.

Well, they voted for the APK, which absolutely wants to get Turkey into the EU.

 

[dh_epic]

"Westernize" might be a lot to expect. But to reward secular government, respect for science, and respect for the rights of women and minorities... that's not a lot to expect. I think those are values that ought to be universal, and are within reach to be considered natural in Turkey.

Dangling the EU membership might actually do a lot to help moderates in the Islamic world. But it's a relatively small piece compared to what else could and should be done.