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Turkey in the EU

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Pannonius, Aug 19, 2007.

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Should Turkey be admitted into the EU?

  1. Yes, Turkey should be admitted into EU wright away

    17 vote(s)
    13.9%
  2. Yes, it should be admitted after some reforms

    32 vote(s)
    26.2%
  3. Yes, but only after serious reforms and some probation time

    36 vote(s)
    29.5%
  4. No, Turkey should not be a member state of the EU

    37 vote(s)
    30.3%
  1. dh_epic

    dh_epic Cold War Veteran

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    Unfortunately, these things are in broad strokes. There is a battle going on WITHIN Islamic nations: reform, or revert to fundamentalism -- with a lot of people not really sure which is better. Every thing that a "modern" nation does to hurt Muslims will be an argument against reform, and an argument for fundamentalism. Everything that a "modern" nation does to help otherwise Muslim countries will be an argument against fundamentalism, and for reform.

    A reform movement has always existed in Muslim countries, but it is constantly stunted by one thing or another.

    You're probably right, though -- it's too soon to let Turkey into the EU. There's enough crap going on with the EU as is. That said, even if there wasn't, I don't think Turkey has "earned" it yet. But they should dangle the EU as a carrot.
     
  2. Cuivienen

    Cuivienen Deity

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    I still fail to understand why many people seem to argue that simply increasing exposure to Europe would not make Turkey "more European". The key to modernizing Turkey is not to demand that it reform before being admitted; that just makes reactionary elements in Turkish society able to say, "We told you so, the Europeans hate us." Rather, they key is to admit Turkey to the EU and expose it further and further to the benefits of modernization, which will happen on its own and rapidly. Reactionary elements quickly become marginalized when there is nothing to react against, or when they dwindle to a tiny minority.
     
  3. Stapel

    Stapel FIAT 850 coupé

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    Everything! It is quite dubious anyway when governments spend tax-money on cultural stuff. But I admit that's just my liberal/libertarian mindset.
    But when it comes to the EU, it is impossible to define the European culture (as you pinted out yourself, iirc). Is the European culture, as the sum of the national cultures that are allegedly naturally related (I doubt that in the first place), worth spending euros on? No way. A total waste!

    A very valid point.
    However, the EU structure (and I am still thinking of a more economical than a politcal structure here), should really drop the individual member's veto rights on certain matters.

    But, as you say, another solution is to allow Turkey to sign the economical and trade treaties only. More or less like Norway does.
     
  4. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    Ah, so because Americans screw up when it comes to Public Relations, Europe has to sacrifice its future as an unified continent in a desperate attempt to appease the Muslim anger by accepting Turkey.

    Jesus this is the stupidest thing I've heard this week. If they want to improve relations with the Islamic world this way, they can accept Turkey as the 51st state of their Union.

    Turkey must finds it's own way. Expanding EU into non-European areas would not help anything, in fact, it would just destabilize the whole region. World has enough of dysfunctional international organizations already.
     
  5. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    Ah, the libertarian virus ;) Well, others do that to. Every state fosters its national culture, it's an important part of its image.

    Yeah, that's what I mean. Trade, close partnership, but not membership. Turkey should be a respected neighbour, not a member. EU has its natural borders and we've almost reached them.
     
  6. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Perhaps pledge to accept European Turkey if it becomes independant :lol:

    See, the double-crossing west would have prevented all this mess if it actually had helped Greece in 1920-22 instead of its ussual backstabbing :rolleyes:
     
  7. dh_epic

    dh_epic Cold War Veteran

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    I'm not saying Europe has to sacrifice anything. But they should. Fundamentalist Islam is everybody's problem, and every country should be thinking about how to help moderates in their own countries. You're right, America did screw up, and it hasn't helped Europe either. But finger pointing and "it's your mess, you clean it up" isn't going to help anybody.
     
  8. Rossiya

    Rossiya Fridge Magnet Porn

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    If you wanted Thrace that much, you could always go and get it.
     
  9. Sofista

    Sofista card-carrying

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    I have an idea of what European culture is; unfortunately I have a hard time outlining it clearly.

    Ah, but what I can do is say: EU is meant to be the home of Europeans, which are far easier to define. The Turks, however you look at them, are not Europeans.
     
  10. Japanrocks12

    Japanrocks12 tired of being a man

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    agree completely with this. more modernization will limit the influence of the reactionaries while forced reform breeds resentment. either way, the milestone that I'm setting is if Turkey apologizes for its past atrocities which now it so vehemently denies. THAT would be a good first step towards admission into the EU.
     
  11. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    Even if it COULD help combat Islamic Fundamentalism, which is not based ony anything but wishful thinking, it still wouldn't be worth sacrificing Europe's future.

    It is obvious that Turkish membership would kill any hopes that the EU will develop in something more than an economic union.
     
  12. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    What makes this tricky is that in Turkey it's the reactionaries who are the modernists — i.e. they want Turkey to stick it out alone in accordance with Kemal Atatürks somewhat heavy-handed conception of modernity, which is also rather Turkish-nationalist.

    The political force hoping and praying for EU membership is their homegrown variety of "Muslim democrats", just like there are parties of "Christian democrats" in the politics of Germany and other EU nations.

    Turkey isn't lacking in modernity. What's at stake is what kind of modernity Turkey will adopt.
     
  13. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    Modernization can't be done from outside. EU membership would be of no consequence.

    Again, hopes that the membership itself could somehow transform Turkey into a Western, European country, are vain. British (or should I say English?) are members for 30 years and they're still the stubborn eurosceptics. The only thing that mitigates this attitude is the sense of closeness to Europe. It sounds stupid at first, but it's true - British are in the EU because they don't want to separate themselves from the rest of the continent, even if it means they have to compromise. This wouldn't be possible if they didn't feel Europen. And vice versa, Europeans suffer this British troublemaker reputation because they see them as a natural part of Europe.

    Turks don't think they are European and Europeans don't think Turkey is European either.

    This could NEVER work, get over it.
     
  14. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    Touché. I just think it has already chosen its path, and it won't lead to Europe.
     
  15. Japanrocks12

    Japanrocks12 tired of being a man

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    but why can't Turkey achieve "Westernization" prior to EU membership. It's obvious that membership alone won't do anything.
     
  16. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    Westernization of a country of this size, which has a distinct culture and strong sense of patriotism is utterly impossible.

    It would also be rather arrogant from us to ask them to Westernize - we know it can't be done, such a process, even if it was volutary, planned and deliberate, would take centuries. They'd have to give up one their own culture and traditions, which is even worse.

    Let them be Turkish.
     
  17. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    Some do, some don't, that's what this whole debate is about.
     
  18. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    That's why this debate is pointless ;)
     
  19. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    Well, they voted for the APK, which absolutely wants to get Turkey into the EU.
     
  20. dh_epic

    dh_epic Cold War Veteran

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    "Westernize" might be a lot to expect. But to reward secular government, respect for science, and respect for the rights of women and minorities... that's not a lot to expect. I think those are values that ought to be universal, and are within reach to be considered natural in Turkey.

    Dangling the EU membership might actually do a lot to help moderates in the Islamic world. But it's a relatively small piece compared to what else could and should be done.
     

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