UK faces the highest inequality levels for 40 years

The mistake you are making is that you are thinking in extremes. Full equal distribution of weath or the system you have today.

If you can show me where I am advocating absolute equal distribution of wealth, then you got me. Otherwise: meh!
 
Spoiler :
Actually, our society is one where hunger is still a problem. You left 390 extra people out of your rather bad example.

Our society (mine being the U.S., I've no idea where you live) is in fact one of relative abundance. But then, that's irrelevant. The issue is that X number of people have a lot more wealth and goodies than others; state and national boundaries are unimportant to the question. "How is it fair for people in Beverly Hills to be better off than people in Jersey City???" some people ask. "How is it fair for people in England to be better off than people in Cambodia???" others ask. Same question, different location.

The world as a whole is, in fact, a world of shortage. To which I remind everybody of this poll I posted in CFC a long, long time ago.
Imagine the world's wealth (as measured by GNP) was divided evenly amongst every human being alive on Earth. At the time I did the poll, that came out to $11,000 per person per year. That's $11,000 for ALL your needs. Food, housing, transportation, movie tickets, cool sunglasses, everything. For life. With no chance of a raise, ever.​
The overwhelming majority of CFC members (yes, YOU PEOPLE) found $11,000 unacceptable.

See? World of shortage.


Edit: Oh, and by the way--I voted "hell no" in that poll. Freedom means choosing your own profession. Choosing what you want to do with your life (the word for other people selecting your profession for you is "fascism"). Which means your paycheck is going to vary depending on how much the rest of the world values your work. If you're a lazy-ass and don't want to put in 40 hours a week, fine. Your choice.

The only thing you poll proved is that there is a shortage fulfill everyone's greed but not to fulfill everyone's needs
 
real UK debt levels are over £1trillion

another source

your figure was from 2003, that is very ou of date, look at ym first link to see how quickly UK debts grow.

http://comunities.gov.uk/index.asp?id=1156192

now consider that housing risen ~250% across the board.

But while UK average earnings only ...ales remains 12.5% below the average UK wage.

"But while UK average earnings only increased 4.1% in the same period the average wage in Wales remains 12.5% below the average UK wage."

Wage increases do not match the rise in house prices at all, see now that the average citizen in the UK cannot afford to buy a house?

And even a mortage wouldn't cover it, with interest rates going up, and the mortages having to be so big, there is no way a first time buyer can realistically get a house. The remember that US homes are lot bigger then UK homes.

uktaxes.png


So the majority of taxes here in the UK don't scale properly with income, or not at all ( like council tax has a relationship with income due to the type of housing ect.ect.)

Now can you see why people would like the proposed tax changes?
 
Maybe thumping your chests about how superior your health care services isn't really the proper action then...amongst other things...
 
I don't like the OP's title. The main problem with the ' examining the wealth gap' is that it causes people to no longer be satisfied with improving the quality of their lives but fosters jealousy. Negative emotions ruin people's lives more than any amount of poverty. People need to be happy if their lives are getting better.

Getting people out of poverty should be the goal, not whining about disproportionate luxuries
report said:
The 1990s saw the two poverty measures diverge, with the number of households identified as breadline poor continuing to rise, and the core poor falling from a peak of about 14% of households to around 11%. During this period, the personal wealth held by the richest 1% of the population grew as a proportion of national share, rising from 17% in 1991 to 24% in 2002.
Moving 3% of the population out of 'core poor' seems like a pretty impressive thing and it's nothing but good. Of course, it could be faster, but the fact that people are leaving 'core poor' means the system is working. Jealousy towards the rich won't help anything, figuring out what's working is what will help.

And the report is too vague, because it says the number of breadline poor is rising. It's sad, I'll admit, but I have no idea if it's rising faster or slower than the population growth rate. That would be a vital piece of information.

Then there's the state of the housing market here. There's a shortage of affordable housing. ... Fortunately, our new Prime Minister has pledged (note: "pledged") to build more homes, and he is also cajoling lenders into offering longer fixed rate mortgages.

It seems the solution, here, is to get into the construction business or invest in construction co-op opportunities. Shovelling your investment or talents into a field will result in that field improving. And I mean you, personally. I'm not even suggesting that you give savings to charity, merely make money by helping fix the problem
How does a rich person 'use' the military? Or the police for that matter.
Don't be silly. The rich disproportionally benefit (on an absolute scale) by having a stable and safe society: especially the upper-middle class. A safe society means that it's easier to collect and nurture your asset accumulation: the rich have more assets and luxuries to collect.
Your mind is very one track - and that track is work, work, work. Ever occur to you that there's more to life than earning money?;) Or whats more, that if you do earn money then perhaps it would be nice to enjoy it rather tnan have the costs swallowed up by living expenses?
This attitude is part of the problem. You're willing to be jealous of other people's wealth, and you think that you should be allowed to use your money for leisure. Oh, and you don't want to 'work, work, work'.

Guess what, money is made by working and investing. It's the only way it's actually MADE. You don't make money by drinking pints or smoking pot, no money is made when it's handed to you. You're complaining about the poverty in your nation: do something about it. Work hard at your job, spend your spare time learning trades and skills you need to know to advance, save your cash and invest it. These are what build wealth in a nation, by feedback loops. You want to pull people out of poverty? Do it.

You want a better world, make it! Get a haircut and real job, invest in projects you believe in, applying continued learning principals throughout your life. If you're not working, then you should be learning. That's what makes the world a better place.

Skadistic: you asked whether the poor should have easy access to the internet. I think they should, especially in any developed nation. The "One laptop per child" initiative is showing that quite handily. Everyone should be able to have access to the internet, and (I think) it should be freely available to those who are poor. More than anything else in society (except maybe public transport and early public education), the internet can be used as a tool for everyone to expand their knowledge base and skill set.

We're trying to get laptops and internet access to the poorest kids of the poorest nations, because it's such a legup in the world. Everyone should have access to it. Frankly I wouldn't mind a decent computer and cable internet being provided to every family in my country: some poor might not partake of the opportunity, but everyone seeking to improve themselves should have the opportunity.

And the internet should be at the people's homes. You can bring a textbook home from the library, but you can't spend hours watching lectures or doing sample exams at the library - or at least, it's not optimal.
 
This attitude is part of the problem. You're willing to be jealous of other people's wealth, and you think that you should be allowed to use your money for leisure. Oh, and you don't want to 'work, work, work'.

Guess what, money is made by working and investing. It's the only way it's actually MADE. You don't make money by drinking pints or smoking pot, no money is made when it's handed to you. You're complaining about the poverty in your nation: do something about it. Work hard at your job, spend your spare time learning trades and skills you need to know to advance, save your cash and invest it. These are what build wealth in a nation, by feedback loops. You want to pull people out of poverty? Do it.

You want a better world, make it! Get a haircut and real job, invest in projects you believe in, applying continued learning principals throughout your life. If you're not working, then you should be learning. That's what makes the world a better place.

And the internet should be at the people's homes. You can bring a textbook home from the library, but you can't spend hours watching lectures or doing sample exams at the library - or at least, it's not optimal.
I have no jealously of others wealth, I merly ask that they pay a fair tax rate and enable the society that gave them that wealth to keep growing.

See, the whole problem with your post is that it falls apart as soon as yous ay 'get a haircut and a real job'. This does not make feel posistive towards what your saying, in fact it makes feel like I wanna tell you to go shove it. The reason being is that I like how I am and I don't want to be forced to change it just to make some cash.

As for 'doing something about the povery in my nation' - well we are in a Democracy are we not? Isn't democracy about debate and winning the argument? Persuading people to your views? Isn't that what i'm doing by posting here and not being afraid to voice my opinion out in the real world? By casting a vote? Sure, there are other things I 'could' do, and we shall see what happens in the future. I'd like to think the fact that i'm more than willing to discuss and defend my views is a good start.

And whose to say i'm not learning when i'm not working? I wouldn't be so active in discussions of this nature on here if I wasn't willing to learn and invest time expanding my knowledge!
 
See, the whole problem with your post is that it falls apart as soon as yous ay 'get a haircut and a real job'. This does not make feel posistive towards what your saying, in fact it makes feel like I wanna tell you to go shove it. The reason being is that I like how I am and I don't want to be forced to change it just to make some cash.
Oh, I'm not encouraging you to get a haircut and a real job just so you can make some cash. No one says you have to sell out. If you're happy where you are, then be happy. Of course, it behooves you to not be bitter if you don't have more cash, because you know how to get it. But, no, don't change your lifestyle merely to get more cash: some people think it's worth it, but not all people are the same. I certainly don't work as hard as I do, just so I can have more cash.

However, I AM encouraging you to get a hair cut and a real job if you want to make the world a better place. It's the best tool you've got. The best way to make a difference is to focus your efforts and resources on creating tools to create solutions. The world is made better by people rolling up their sleeves and working.

One of your ideas is to enact change in the taxation legislation, that's great! Go get some academic credentials and a working model and become an expert in the field. You want people to listen to you, become an authority. It might take years, but it'll be worth it, because then people will listen.
And whose to say i'm not learning when i'm not working? I wouldn't be so active in discussions of this nature on here if I wasn't willing to learn and invest time expanding my knowledge!
Of course you're learning, but are you learning fast enough to change your life before you get caught in a trap similar to your parents? You need to improve yourself faster than society is changing, or you'll never have the resources to make a societal change. Devour books in the field you're working in (if it's a reasonable career) and devour textbooks on economics and taxation and investment.

You won't be able to convince people to change the system until you can convince them you know more about the topic than they ever will. Society is very judging, you can't change anyone's mind unless you're spot on.
 
Oh, I'm not encouraging you to get a haircut and a real job just so you can make some cash. No one says you have to sell out. If you're happy where you are, then be happy. Of course, it behooves you to not be bitter if you don't have more cash, because you know how to get it. But, no, don't change your lifestyle merely to get more cash: some people think it's worth it, but not all people are the same. I certainly don't work as hard as I do, just so I can have more cash.

However, I AM encouraging you to get a hair cut and a real job if you want to make the world a better place. It's the best tool you've got. The best way to make a difference is to focus your efforts and resources on creating tools to create solutions. The world is made better by people rolling up their sleeves and working.

One of your ideas is to enact change in the taxation legislation, that's great! Go get some academic credentials and a working model and become an expert in the field. You want people to listen to you, become an authority. It might take years, but it'll be worth it, because then people will listen.
There are many ways to change the world without 'getting a hair cut and a real job'. We shall see what oppurtunities present themselves. Maybe it doesn't occur to you that i'm already doing things which I feel are worthwhile?;) As for others in the future, well I like to be sure i'm happy with soemthing before I commit too much, and i'm waiting tosee what oppurtunities present themselves.

Of course you're learning, but are you learning fast enough to change your life before you get caught in a trap similar to your parents? You need to improve yourself faster than society is changing, or you'll never have the resources to make a societal change. Devour books in the field you're working in (if it's a reasonable career) and devour textbooks on economics and taxation and investment.

You won't be able to convince people to change the system until you can convince them you know more about the topic than they ever will. Society is very judging, you can't change anyone's mind unless you're spot on.
Your thinkign very accedemically...I prefer to look into other methods.
 
I can only suggest that 'trying to change the system' without knowing in what way it's broken can really make things worse for a lot of people: especially if your system involves trying to sway the masses (instead of just making things better in your own small way)

Given that your opinion partially includes "the rich are getting richer off of the backs of the workers", I can only suggest that you should put more effort into academic study of this topic.
 
Sure, eat work, ****. That's all someone needs right? As long as your garbage bags magically disapear, it's all good.

But I figure you'd call them luxuriously challenged as well, instead of poor right? :p

No, I'd call them getting by. I've been there myself and I sure didn't expect the government to pay for cable TV, cell phones, computers, or tickets to the latest Harry Potter movie. If you cannot afford the luxuries, go without.
 
No, I'd call them getting by.
What's the big deal with labeling poor people poor? It seems you don't give a crap about poor people anyway (forgot if you are one of the: they are poor because they are lazy-types, if you aren't I imediatly apologize for that remark) so why avoid calling them that way?
I've been there myself and I sure didn't expect the government to pay for cable TV, cell phones, computers, or tickets to the latest Harry Potter movie. If you cannot afford the luxuries, go without.
And of the examples you named, I'd only argue for computers, because I agree with the reasons El Machinae stated:
you asked whether the poor should have easy access to the internet. I think they should, especially in any developed nation. The "One laptop per child" initiative is showing that quite handily. Everyone should be able to have access to the internet, and (I think) it should be freely available to those who are poor. More than anything else in society (except maybe public transport and early public education), the internet can be used as a tool for everyone to expand their knowledge base and skill set.

We're trying to get laptops and internet access to the poorest kids of the poorest nations, because it's such a legup in the world. Everyone should have access to it. Frankly I wouldn't mind a decent computer and cable internet being provided to every family in my country: some poor might not partake of the opportunity, but everyone seeking to improve themselves should have the opportunity.

And the internet should be at the people's homes. You can bring a textbook home from the library, but you can't spend hours watching lectures or doing sample exams at the library - or at least, it's not optimal.
I don't regard this charity, but investing. If more people of my country know their way around computers and are privy to information on the internet they would otherwise not have, the intelligence in my country goes up. Which means education will have better results.

Cable TV, cell phones or tickets to the latest Harry Potter movie, do not have that advantage.
 
Which is why I said and say that education and housing are to be addressed. In short, opportunities.

We presently have this new and quite atrocious 'postcode lottery' in effect with schooling. This means your location (along with siblings and special needs) dictates the school your kid goes to. Bear that in mind while reading the next bit.
OK I understand. I think there's a lot we can all learn from experiences in this regard. As much as I loathe the Chicago school system as a tool of power there have been some good things they've done with what they call the "magnet system". What they try to do is get the students in schools that specialize in areas of the students aptitude. Personally, it should be expanded further. Two of the best magnets were the only schools in the Chicagoland area that were ranked amongst the top 100 in the country and even with a greater tax base there were no suburban schools.
Rambuchan said:
Then there's the state of the housing market here. There's a shortage of affordable housing. The market is swamped and inflated by wealthy buy-to-letters, and stupidly wealthy foreign buyers, who purchase for the same reasons and simply as investments and holiday homes. And there aren't enough homes being built to meet both their demand and that of those seeking to get on. This means those attempting to climb up the social ladder are simply priced out.

Put the two together and - Cue the ghettos and social exclusion, which the report refers to.

Fortunately, our new Prime Minister has pledged (note: "pledged") to build more homes, and he is also cajoling lenders into offering longer fixed rate mortgages. It remains to be seen whether the home building volume will be enough and whether the lenders will bite (whilst the Bank of England keeps raising interest rates).

Funky situation no?

(There's also the fact that Britain has cheerfully thrown its doors open to plenty of immigrant labour, which I'm sure is skewing the figures too.)

I hope to get back to these, pushed for time and attention. :)
Well again hopefully the UK will learn some punishing lessons from Chicago. We're tearing down high rise public housing which evolved into a massive gang culture. The city is attempting to place these people in scattered housing which will hopefully put some of these kids in situations where that becomes less prevalent. One model I've always wondered why governments don't adopt is "Habitat for Humanity's model" which has the person actually commit to helping build their own home.

Uh? the answer for what?

Even if you redistribute, the average or earnings is gonna be the same, so the number of poor people won't change with redistribution. The poor will have more acquisitive power, but they still will be called poor.
Nope that's not what I'm suggesting. I think when people see this the initial reaction is to redistribute which will never solve the problem. I think Ram's suggestion on education, in particular, and affordable housing.
 
I can only suggest that 'trying to change the system' without knowing in what way it's broken can really make things worse for a lot of people: especially if your system involves trying to sway the masses (instead of just making things better in your own small way)

Given that your opinion partially includes "the rich are getting richer off of the backs of the workers", I can only suggest that you should put more effort into academic study of this topic.
The comments i've made in this thread are all connected with the ones i've made in my latest Lib Dem thread.

I think it's a bit silly of you to pick up on that one quote as it was made in a certain context.

I know (to use your words) 'how the system is broken' and if you read through those 2 threads your'll see i've stated it....i.e that high earners in the UK pay too little tax and low/middle eaners pay too much. As for the remdy, the Lib Dem thread I posted shows me giving support to their ideas/policies concerning changign the tax system. Given that the Lib Dems are a decent sized political party here in the UK, it is in my intrest to thus debate and persuade people to vote for them to see these policies enacted! Whats more, the more support the LibDems get, the more likely their policies will be canabalised by Labour and the Tories to some extent....and some movement towards the ideas is better than no movement.
 
The internet and computers are luxuries just like books. Guess where you can find all of those?
 
The internet and computers are luxuries just like books. Guess where you can find all of those?

I wouldn't describe them as luxuries, unless you're partaking of games or fiction. Both the internet and books are awesomely powerful tools for self-improvement. If someone wants to get out of poverty, the best thing they can have is access to books and the internet.

I understand that you're alluding to libraries, but I believe that a big difference is that you can take the library books home, to read at whatever time is best for you. The computers at the library can only be used during library hours.

If a person is working nights, they won't have access to the computer as much as would benefit them. And given the awesome educational power of the internet, I can barely think of it as a luxury. Or at least, it's value as an investment is so much higher that I'd call it an investment.

Though the idea of 'take home' computers that have access to the Web might be a neat resource to have in the libraries. Again, I'll mention the "One Laptop per Child" initiative, and how it's helping kids get a modern education.
 
There's a lot of separate debates going on in this thread, and a lot of my views have already been reflected in a number of posts from a number of different posters. So forgive me if I'm repeating stuff.

1. Class mobility

Or, rather, income mobility. The complex system of incentives and disincentives w.r.t. unemployment have made getting on the career ladder, and staying on it, very straightforward. I've said it before, but Job Centres in the UK are an excellent way of getting people into work, and, coupled with said incentives, have done remarkably well in matching people up with jobs and reducing unemployment.

The problem then becomes moving from an unskilled job to a skilled job. Gordon Brown has set up public bodies that will, in time, address the issue of adult education, which will hopefully allow more unskilled labourers to develop skills and move up the career ladder. I'm VERY excited about the prospect of seeing Gordon Brown's plans go to work. The beauty of his thinking is that it aims to address the systematic failures in the job market through direct action, rather than passively encouraging people to get training. It's the same kind of thinking behind the Job Centres, and it's one reason that I'll probably be voting Labour next election.

2. Baby Boomers

See this article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6526817.stm

"The baby boomers find themselves in a unique position - they've worked through periods of relative economic prosperity and have experienced rocketing house prices which means many of them now have money to spare," said Friends Provident spokesman Jeremy Ward.

The over-50s control 80% of the UK's wealth.

And, to top it all off, they've been blessed with VERY generous Final Year Salary Pension schemes. So they'll be rich well into retirement.

Rambuchan said all I have to say about house prices, so I'll leave it at that.

The problem, therefore, is how we can help the 20- and 30-somethings, without unfairly punishing those over 50's who have, quite legitimately and through no underhand or "immoral" means, amassed enormous wealth.
 
El_Machinae said:
It seems the solution, here, is to get into the construction business or invest in construction co-op opportunities. Shovelling your investment or talents into a field will result in that field improving. And I mean you, personally. I'm not even suggesting that you give savings to charity, merely make money by helping fix the problem
The problem is that those who have made massive gains on the breakneck growth in property prices are have the exact opposite effect. They're borrowing off the equity in their houses at historically low interest rates to buy properties with the sole aim of letting them out. The increased demand from this activity is a self fulfilling prophecy, in that it increases house prices, which leads to first time buyers not being able to afford a house. This, of course, means that they have to rent...... from the people who drove the prices up in the first place!

Obviously there is nothing illegal about this. But it certainly exacerbates the problem of income inequality.
 
Look, you can almost describe anything as luxuries. People can survive on bread and water, they won't be as healthy, but hey, that's their own fault right? At least they will survive to walk to their work. Veggies? Luxury! A piece of meat now and again? Luxury! Clothing? Luxury! Living in a pond? Luxury! People don't even need housing. Just stick em in a designated area with a lake, throw them a loaf of bread, and they'll survive right?
 
Look, you can almost describe anything as luxuries. People can survive on bread and water, they won't be as healthy, but hey, that's their own fault right? At least they will survive to walk to their work. Veggies? Luxury! A piece of meat now and again? Luxury! Clothing? Luxury! Living in a pond? Luxury! People don't even need housing. Just stick em in a designated area with a lake, throw them a loaf of bread, and they'll survive right?

Actually you can live with out a house, I've done it. Food is not a luxury unless its more then you need, like king crab, health eating is a necessity. Clothes aren't a luxury unless its more then you need, like designer labels, protection from the elements is a necessity. Anything above and beyond what you need to live is a luxury. No one needs a car or TV or computer or internet to survive. These are all luxuries. If you have any of those you are not poor. If you don't have them and want them you have to buy them with money made from working.
 
Yeah, I heard you the first 3 times. If you have a TV you're not poor. At least, accoording to you.

To me it's sounds like BS, but there you go :)
 
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