UK politics - continuing into 2021

[Aiken_Drumn]

David is quite a nice chap. I share my hometown with him (Bridlington) and random paths in life had my father have quite a few antique dealings with him. The oddest ever interaction however was a holiday.

My parents and I were in Sicily, going to the opera. It was in the Teatro Massimo. Operatic guff that made no sense to us, but my mum wanted to pretend to be posh. During the first break, who do we spot but Hockney! We have a quick chat with him and share an ice cream. We go back into the theatre and the stage hands go on strike! The performance is cancelled. We spot Hockney again as we leave, but bottle suggest continuing the evening together. Sadly my father is too proud to suck up to someone, even as famous as Hockney, but perhaps that is why he trusted my father?

His art has never been about how realistic it is. An that is no way to measure an artist. Still, I wish my dad had asked for a doodle and a signature rather than cash for the things he sold!

 

[sherbz]

Nope. Dont see it. I reckon an A level art student could do better. Also, i think you can rate in on the basis that it doesnt look like him. Unless its some sort of abstract. And he was specifically drawing Tom Daley. Not anyone else. And it was a "portrait".

 

[EnglishEdward]

David Hockney is good albeit IMO overrated and has produced some nice abstracts,
but that kind of trainee art school like quick sketch does not really show his talent.

 

[sherbz]

Looked at more broadly, this is why i have a very disparaging view of modern art. That is nearly always about who the artist is and not what they have actually created. Like this effort from Damien Hirst. Priced at £1,750. What a load of rubbish.

 

[Samson]

Looked at more broadly, this is why i have a very disparaging view of modern art. That is nearly always about who the artist is and not what they have actually created. Like this effort from Damien Hirst. Priced at £1,750. What a load of rubbish.

I see you that and raise you Composition No. 10 at $50.6m

 

[Gorbles]

Nope. Dont see it. I reckon an A level art student could do better. Also, i think you can rate in on the basis that it doesnt look like him. Unless its some sort of abstract. And he was specifically drawing Tom Daley. Not anyone else. And it was a "portrait".

Like I said, it could easily be Tom Daley. I described the things that stood out for me as being accurate, though of course you're free to have a different opinion.

The problem is things like you "reckon an A-level art student could do better". I managed to find the original piece (the Evening Standard), and it's definitely a diver's body all right. If I wanted Google to go a bit mad I'd search for "Tom Daley topless" but I'm on work hours, so maybe not.

An individual's talent at high school varies immensely, anecdotally, as someone who once had some small amount of skill in art. I know people who did it for a laugh, people who did it even though their skill was still developing, and people who were just incredibly skilled even at that age. The problem is time. A good piece, usually, takes time. Any amount of time. But what sets skill and experience apart is the impact on time taken. It trends downwards, generally. Pieces stop becoming flukes, and starts becoming reliable, regular output.

So sure, someone at around A-level standard could produce something akin to that. But I doubt they could do it as quickly at Hockney could, nor could they reliably imitate his style - they'd have to imitate the piece in particular (which is one of 81 or 82 other pieces, according to the article). And even then, honestly, I doubt they could. Musculature is very hard work in art - and detail in musculature and body form is what sets apart good, from great, from excellent. The shadow work, too.

You don't have to like it, but I've never been a fan of people trying to justify their dislike by degrading the effort or expertise inherent in creating it. Especially if you are, by your own admittance, not that hot at it

 

[Senethro]

Guys we got cameras for photorealism. We have techologized image creation, we have industrialized reproduction, and commodified it for distribution and mass selling.

And you want to measure artists on the basis of simply "looking like" a thing?

 

[Samson]

I do not actually see the problem. The main effect is the transfer of money from the super rich to artists, which is probably a good even if the art is not. Is this any worse because of who produced it?

Spoiler Who produced it :

It is created by an AI, and is different every time (try refreshing the page). Their store is here if you want more info or to buy it as an NFT.

 

[Hrothbern]

Not really politics. But most certainly UK based. I was listening to the radio on the weekend and there was a lengthy interview with Tom Daley on the Today programme, where he was discussing various things including life, love, fatherhood and also a sketch that was made of him by a very famous artist David Hockney. Now im not into art at all, so had never even heard of this guy. But by many accounts he is a legend in the field. So after i finished listening, i went online to find this great work of art. And here it is:

Now its much better than i could do. But im just a few rungs higher than stick men. But i think its terrible. And really does demonstrate that art has almost nothing to do with artistic merit and everything to do with who you are - not how good you are. Looks more like Dr Spock from Star Trek if you ask me.

It is before the Renaissance (in Western culture) that "Art" was primarily seen as functional for the customer.
It is in the Renaissance that "Art" was seen, judged and valued as how good a craftsman you were (but still 90% functional as well for the customer).
It is with the Romantic period of the 19th century that "Art" was judged more on "originality" and the Artist became more and more important because he was the origin. (Not "what is" but "what seen" by the Artist and "what caused" to the viewer)
It is in the post-WW2 period that "Art" becomes more and more the self-expression of the "Artist", as "originality"-squared and moving to identity expression of the Artist and experience impression to the viewer.

You are in the Renaissance attitude

 

[sherbz]

It is before the Renaissance (in Western culture) that "Art" was primarily seen as functional for the customer.
It is in the Renaissance that "Art" was seen, judged and valued as how good a craftsman you were (but still 90% functional as well for the customer).
It is with the Romantic period of the 19th century that "Art" was judged more on "originality" and the Artist became more and more important because he was the origin. (Not "what is" but "what seen" by the Artist and "what caused" to the viewer)
It is in the post-WW2 period that "Art" becomes more and more the self-expression of the "Artist", as "originality"-squared and moving to identity expression of the Artist and experience impression to the viewer.

You are in the Renaissance attitude

Ive always fancied myself as a renaissance critic

 

[sherbz]

I do not actually see the problem. The main effect is the transfer of money from the super rich to artists, which is probably a good even if the art is not. Is this any worse because of who produced it?

Spoiler Who produced it :

It is created by an AI, and is different every time (try refreshing the page). Their store is here if you want more info or to buy it as an NFT.

This is 10 times better than that square monstrosity

 

[Aiken_Drumn]

I do not actually see the problem. The main effect is the transfer of money from the super rich to artists, which is probably a good even if the art is not. Is this any worse because of who produced it?

Spoiler Who produced it :

It is created by an AI, and is different every time (try refreshing the page). Their store is here if you want more info or to buy it as an NFT.

This is amazing!

 

[AmazonQueen]

I don't think you can judge an artist based on a single work but the YBA, Hirst and Emin were a scam, albeit not one committed by the artists although they benefited.
Their early works were mainly bought by Charles Saatchi driving the price up. Later on he sold almost all of them.

 

[Aiken_Drumn]

Are those pieces of art now worth more or less than Saatchi paid for them?

 

[sherbz]

I don't think you can judge an artist based on a single work but the YBA, Hirst and Emin were a scam, albeit not one committed by the artists although they benefited.
Their early works were mainly bought by Charles Saatchi driving the price up. Later on he sold almost all of them.

This is a double problem for me. Much of whats considered art is based not on the quality of the art but who produced it. And the value of such art is driven largely by how many famous people have bought it. Neither of which get me any closer to seeing how "good" something is.

I get its all subjective. Im just left with the lingering feeling that many who claim to be art aficionados are really just people who value image over substance.

 

[Samson]

This is a double problem for me. Much of whats considered art is based not on the quality of the art but who produced it. And the value of such art is driven largely by how many famous people have bought it. Neither of which get me any closer to seeing how "good" something is.

I get its all subjective. Im just left with the lingering feeling that many who claim to be art aficionados are really just people who value image over substance.

I would love it if there was a good scientific trial to see if "art aficionados" can tell the difference between real human produced art and AI generated stuff.

 

[Aiken_Drumn]

Same with fancy wines, on a blind test usually no one can tell which is which.

 

[Samson]

Same with fancy wines, on a blind test usually no one can tell which is which.

Oh yeah:

An analysis of the number of Gold medals received in multiple competitions indicates that the probability of winning a Gold medal at one competition is stochastically independent of the probability of receiving a Gold at another competition, indicating that winning a Gold medal is greatly influenced by chance alone.​

 

[Aiken_Drumn]

Sounds like the Gold Medal Ceremonies is a racket? Let me guess.. it costs to enter a wine?

 

[Hrothbern]

I would love it if there was a good scientific trial to see if "art aficionados" can tell the difference between real human produced art and AI generated stuff.

Just walk through a museum and talk half loud to someone with you per piece of art of for example the more renaissance art, at least the period before WW2, where the artist messed up for example part of a painting.
The reactions are like when you curse in a church.

It is taboo to be frank and candid