Ukraine and Russia may go to war

[Gelion]

Yeah, you question was about everyone else but Russia. So, you awkwardly tried to use the ICCPR as a weapon without really understanding the context of it and suddenly backfired. As already established in previous posts Russia doesn't recognize the right of secession to its own republics to begin with,

Where? lol. Red_elk said the opposite.

Also what reference was made to the ICCPR? Red_elk literally quoted a wikipedia article which talked about the Charter of the United Nations.

 

[red_elk]

Yeah, you question was about everyone else but Russia.

Ethnic conflict and the war we were talking about was between Georgians and Ossetians and the issue of Ossetian separatism arised in Georgia, not Russia.
And you were constantly bringing Russia's question to deflect the argument. Like if Ossetians were similarly mistreated in Russia.

Feel free to post another "But Russia..." oneliner.
I'm beginning to understand people who gets annoyed by whataboutism.

 

[Sarin]

Where? lol. Red_elk said the opposite.

You know the jokes. In Soviet (or Putin's) Russia...

Because the post says that Republic of Alania, part of Russian Federation, does NOT have right to secede.

 

[Gelion]

You know the jokes. In Soviet (or Putin's) Russia...

Because the post says that Republic of Alania, part of Russian Federation, does NOT have right to secede.

Well:

If Russia would mistreat them same way as Georgians did though, I'd give them that right.

Unless I am mistaken somewhere.

 

[EnglishEdward]

But, but... Russian Federation doesn't allow Russian Republics to freely chose its sovereignty with no interference!

This may or may not be true.

But even if true it puts Russia in the same position as the United States, China, India, Spain and many other places.

 

[Sarin]

Well:

Unless I am mistaken somewhere.

I wasn't aware that red_elk is entire ruling body of Russian Federation. Otherwise, his opinion on that is irrelevant. The whole post, with actually relevant part bolded.

Ohh, all very junky dori. And have the right to secede from Russian Federation too?
Because you know it would be, lets say, extremely hypocrite, if they don't have such right in Russia...

No, they don't. If Russia would mistreat them same way as Georgians did though, I'd give them that right.
Give my best regards to Catalonians, btw.

 

[red_elk]

I wasn't aware that red_elk is entire ruling body of Russian Federation. Otherwise, his opinion on that is irrelevant. The whole post, with actually relevant part bolded.

I'm not a ruling body of Russian Federation. In the context of that discussion, actually Russian laws are quite irrelevant - we were discussing opinions about secession rights.

 

[Gelion]

I wasn't aware that red_elk is entire ruling body of Russian Federation. Otherwise, his opinion on that is irrelevant. The whole post, with actually relevant part bolded.

Thank you, yes, currently they don't have that right, but in the 90's some Republics had that right written in their regional constitutions. Which is a lot more than some other states are/were willing to offer. We also discussed personal positions in that part of the thread so I got confused with that.

Also there was a law about seceding from USSR. It states:

LAW On the procedure for resolving issues related to the exit union republic from the USSR

Article 2. The decision on the secession of a union republic from the USSR is taken by the free expression of the will of the peoples of the union republic by way of a referendum (popular vote). The decision to hold a referendum is taken by the Supreme Soviet of a union republic on its own initiative or at a request signed by one tenth of the citizens of the USSR permanently residing in the republic and entitled to vote in accordance with the legislation of the USSR.

Article 3. In a union republic that includes autonomous republics, autonomous regions and autonomous okrugs, a referendum is held separately for each autonomy. The peoples of the autonomous republics and autonomous formations retain the right to independently decide on the question of staying in the USSR or in the seceding Union republic, as well as to raise the question of their state and legal status.

And here's why South Ossetians deserve independence. Legally speaking.

 

[mitsho]

That's a lot of new pages in the past few days and weeks. The issue seems to motivate people, but I can't help to think this is all a big diversion - and I hate that. A big show, I'm sorry, I don't really care about the Ossetians, I'd much rather care about the many more people living in Moscow and all the other cities and communities of Russia, suffering from the economic disaster and political oppression Putin and his cronies oversee. I still believe in the march of history, the grand picture.

 

[Gelion]

"Everything is illusion, Mr. Garibaldi. Concepts of language, light, metaphor; nothing is real. Except this blindfold. Which you will put on now, otherwise we'll turn around."

 

[r16]

incredible , ain't it ? The West has thrown a bit of Kazakistan to Russia , as if it wasn't like theirs already , and the talk is still about how Ukraine must be delivered from the Soviets ? Would like it , if ı was like 30 years younger .

 

[red_elk]

A big show, I'm sorry, I don't really care about the Ossetians, I'd much rather care about the many more people living in Moscow and all the other cities and communities of Russia, suffering from the economic disaster and political oppression Putin and his cronies oversee.

If you truly care, you can send me money. I'm immensely suffering from atrocities of Putin's regime.
One thousand euro will save father of Russian democracy.

 

[Gelion]

One thousand euro will save father of Russian democracy.

OMG, you have to be an ex-Soviet to get this, but this made my entire day.

 

[Zardnaar]

Chechnya tied to leave Russia was crushed and no other great power really interfered in Russian efforts there. Hell iirc USA helped them.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yeah, you question was about everyone else but Russia. So, you awkwardly tried to use the ICCPR as a weapon without really understanding the context of it and suddenly backfired. As already established in previous posts Russia doesn't recognize the right of secession to its own republics to begin with, and then pretend Georgia to do it with its regions, same for Ukraine. So as it doesn't Russia invade. You are trying to justify something entirely unjustifiable, it is better Gelion's "de facto" way. What Putin is doing is wrong at any level, legal, moral and probably practical, since it will backfire sooner or later as your argument on the right to self-determination did...
Frankly, some years ago i thought Putin, being a ruthless criminal and all was the best possible leader Russia could get, now i think it will lead Russia to utter ruin once again.

Russia should really be a lot more prosperous than it is.

I think Putin's great fear is with places like the Baltic states more or less performing better than Russia in terms of freedom and economy people at home might start asking awkward questions.

Well they do already the youth seem to spend a good chunk of their time trying to avoid conscription.

All those roubles spent in Crimea could have been spent improving Russia internally.

Wars and expansion don't really pay for themselves these days.

 

[Gelion]

Chechnya tied to leave Russia was crushed and no other great power really interfered in Russian efforts there. Hell iirc USA helped them.

Chechnya had a plethora of foreign secret services working there. As for the "tried to leave":

Spoiler :

"On September 6, 1991, Dudayev announced the dissolution of republican state structures, accusing Russia of colonial politics. On the same day, Dudaev's supporters stormed the building of the Supreme Soviet of the Chechen-Ingush Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, the television center and the House of Radio. More than 40 deputies were beaten, and the chairman of the Grozny city council, Vitaly Kutsenko, was killed by throwing out of the window.
On October 7, 1991, presidential and parliamentary elections were held in the republic under the control of separatists, Dzhokhar Dudayev became the President of the republic. Dudayev's opponents announced the falsification of the election results.
After the collapse of the USSR, Dzhokhar Dudayev announced the final withdrawal of Chechnya from the Russian Federation. The separatists began to seize military warehouses. The withdrawal of Russian military units and units of the Ministry of Internal Affairs began from the republic, which was finally completed by June 1992.
Chechnya became de facto independent, but not legally recognized by any country, including Russia, as a state.
In fact, the state system of the CRI turned out to be extremely ineffective and in the period 1991-1994 it was rapidly criminalized. In 1992-1993, over 600 premeditated murders were committed on the territory of Chechnya.
In the spring of 1993, in the CRI, the contradictions between President Dudayev and the parliament sharply escalated.
Since the summer of 1994, hostilities have unfolded in Chechnya between the troops loyal to Dudayev and the opposition forces of the Provisional Council of the Chechen Republic."
Around the new year 1994-1995 Russian forces moved in to "restore constitutional order" and help the Provisional council.

EDIT:

I think Putin's great fear is with places like the Baltic states more or less performing better than Russia in terms of freedom and economy

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1016444/total-population-baltic-states-1950-2020/

 

[Zardnaar]

Chechnya had a plethora of foreign secret services working there. As for the "tried to leave":

Spoiler :

"On September 6, 1991, Dudayev announced the dissolution of republican state structures, accusing Russia of colonial politics. On the same day, Dudaev's supporters stormed the building of the Supreme Soviet of the Chechen-Ingush Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, the television center and the House of Radio. More than 40 deputies were beaten, and the chairman of the Grozny city council, Vitaly Kutsenko, was killed by throwing out of the window.
On October 7, 1991, presidential and parliamentary elections were held in the republic under the control of separatists, Dzhokhar Dudayev became the President of the republic. Dudayev's opponents announced the falsification of the election results.
After the collapse of the USSR, Dzhokhar Dudayev announced the final withdrawal of Chechnya from the Russian Federation. The separatists began to seize military warehouses. The withdrawal of Russian military units and units of the Ministry of Internal Affairs began from the republic, which was finally completed by June 1992.
Chechnya became de facto independent, but not legally recognized by any country, including Russia, as a state.
In fact, the state system of the CRI turned out to be extremely ineffective and in the period 1991-1994 it was rapidly criminalized. In 1992-1993, over 600 premeditated murders were committed on the territory of Chechnya.
In the spring of 1993, in the CRI, the contradictions between President Dudayev and the parliament sharply escalated.
Since the summer of 1994, hostilities have unfolded in Chechnya between the troops loyal to Dudayev and the opposition forces of the Provisional Council of the Chechen Republic."
Around the new year 1994-1995 Russian forces moved in to "restore constitutional order" and help the Provisional council.

EDIT:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1016444/total-population-baltic-states-1950-2020/

You're very funny. Your playbook very predictable and it's complete BS.

People want to leave Russia foreign agents. Russia intervenes it's always justified.

If various places Russia is propping up very crap leaders (Syria, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Chechnya most of the CSTO).

Even with authoritarian dictatorship, complete control of the press and heavy handed secret police they're struggling to keep a lid on it.

Main problem is the west exists. It's not perfect but it's not hard to look over the border and see how things work without getting screwed over.

Wages are essentially junk in a lot of these places. Lower cost of living only goes so far.

 

[Birdjaguar]

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1016444/total-population-baltic-states-1950-2020/

That is an interesting chart, but it doesn't explain either why the population peaked in 1990 or why all have been declining since then. This paper has lots of good info about why your graphs look they way they do. It is older data (2009) but the trends are well explained: emigration, low fertility; aging population. The short paper has a very nice set of charts at the end.

https://iussp2009.princeton.edu/papers/91919

 

[Snowygerry]

Like in Turkey? You're saying because they didn't vote their government out or rebelled they approve of their exploits?

Most Turks support their government in public yes, they're not unlike Russians in that regard, much propped up nationalism - criticism is often kept internal not shown publicly to foreigners for obvious reasons.

Of course Belgian Turks are somewhat different from Turkish Turks - we have a very prolific Turk on the forum here, maybe you should ask him.

 

[Snowygerry]

[...]
Well, considering what you just said, maybe these members want to invade others in full consort with their electorate under the protection of other NATO forces. It think its a great explanation based on what you just said.

In case of Georgia you may have point - they tried to use their potential NATO membership for 'offensive' purposes, Estonia clearly not.

Georgians have always been tricky bstds, they're an ancient people they pre-date the Russian nation state by centuries - wasn't Stalin from there also ?