Thorgalaeg
Deity
Or very generous from you. I am pretty sure if they are mistreated you will continue saying everything continues being marvellous there.
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Thorgalaeg
Deity
Well, then the right thing is to treat Russia as a defacto criminal state.
May be. I'll take your posts in the thread about separatism as example.
And thank you for being so friendly in this thread.
Thorgalaeg
Deity
It seems the concept of sovereignty is hard to crack for you, specially when it is about the sovereignty of others...
Gelion
Retired Captain
Based on your left foot?
To be more accurate, it became a language issue in the 1980's-1990's.
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So, the question stands - why Ossetians or Catalonians deserve to live in a separate state any less than Estonians?
Because Estonians had luxury to obtain sovereignty at some point of their history, but Ossetians and Catalonians didn't?
Snowygerry
Deity
Because the Estonians were lucky to able to join NATO at a time when Russia could not stop them ?
And sometimes THAT is all it takes
And sometimes THAT is all it takes
Thorgalaeg
Deity
And then come Russians, who deserve more sovereignty than anyone else.
Gelion
Retired Captain
Who said that?
I doubt thats the answer, but oh well.Because the Estonians were lucky to able to join NATO at a time when Russia could not stop them ?
And sometimes THAT is all it takes
Thorgalaeg
Deity
You and your colleague along all this thread.
Snowygerry
Deity
No NATO member has ever been invaded, I'm sure that's not gone unnoticed by the rest of Russia's neighbours...
Gelion
Retired Captain
Cite me. "Russians deserve more sovereignty than others". Cite me.
Although NATO members freely invade others. Which has not be unnoticed by other states
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Thorgalaeg
Deity
Well, you seem OK with the idea of eastern European countries having to limit its sovereignty so Russia doesn't feel its own sovereignty threatened, also you just said Russia has de facto more sovereignty than others Europeans countries. The clues are pretty obvious...
In the last page, you were blaming people about evading direct questions. At least be consistent and don't evade them yourself.
Snowygerry
Deity
(...)
Although NATO members freely invade others. Which has not be unnoticed by other states
I doubt Estonia has invaded anything - they don't even have an airforce...
They have a tank though - so don't underestimate them!
Thorgalaeg
Deity
Your question was already answered but you didn't notice it. Estonia "deserves" the same sovereignty as the Russian Ossetian Republic which dont have it, as the Catalan Autonomous Community, like the Russian Federation or like Spain. It is not a matter of deserving, it is a matter of law, you know the thing humanity invented to not exterminate itself in continuous wars and that Russia is happily breaking since a decade ago and apparently fell can continue doing so...
Gelion
Retired Captain
I said that de facto Russia has more sovereignty than Eastern European states. Answering your direct question. Not referring to anything else.Well, you seem OK with the idea of eastern European countries having to limit its sovereignty so Russia doesn't feel its own sovereignty threatened, also you just said Russia has de facto more sovereignty than others Europeans countries. The clues are pretty obvious...
The "idea of eastern European countries having to limit its sovereignty so Russia doesn't feel its own sovereignty threatened", I assume, refers to Russian opposition of NATO membership of some EE states. Which is a question of sovereignty. Which is fine. I do believe that neighbours should try not to pose as threats to one another, but in a world where your actions are completely unaccountable to your neighbours... which is what you are invoking, I believe Russia can live with the idea of Ukraine and others being a member of NATO. Provided that Cuba in their sovereign and independent way invites Russian nuclear missiles back to their island. It is their own sovereign and independent decision if they decide to do so. I think it will go down just fine.
No, but its not the only member of NATO isn't it?
Gelion
Retired Captain
You're bringing law into this debate. Which is wonderful. Laws about sovereignty and respecting the authority of the UNSC resolutions which the US broke by invading Iraq and forcing through the bombing of Libya. Laws about indivisibility of borders which the west broke when they accepted the independence of Kosovo. Laws such as the protection of minorities which they forgot about in post Soviet republics and ex-Yugoslavia. If you want to talk laws, start with your own commitments.
Snowygerry
Deity
Not all NATO members are created equal, some are more agressive than others, nor does NATO have any hold over its members, they can and do pursue their own interests...
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