Ukrainian Crisis thread 1.2

Its been noted that up till this point taxes has been payed to Kiev...

The only option left for many in the breakaway areas is to go to nearby towns under Kiev’s control and try to withdraw cash there. Many are trying to reissue their bank accounts in government-held areas

http://rt.com/news/209283-banks-cash-east-ukraine/

They can still get pension in Ukrainian controlled territory ?

Many older Ukrainians never paid one hryvnia to any pension fund. It isn't like the U.S. Now after the Soviet Union we have to pay a very small amount towards pensions, but is only based on the income you declare to the government

What is a hryvnia ?
Just googled its Ukrainian currency.

Ukraine’s government has begun cutting off payments and banking services to areas of the country under the control of pro-Russian rebels, in a further sign that Kiev has given up trying to control the territory.

The separatist authorities have a dilemma: they have declared independence from Ukraine, but unlike with the Crimea peninsula, Russia has shown little appetite for formally taking over the east.

Previously, the Donetsk authorities have proclaimed their territory an independent state and said they no longer wanted anything to do with Kiev. Ukraine has been setting up makeshift border posts along the line of control, a further sign that Kiev has realised it cannot win back the territory militarily.

Philip Breedlove, Nato’s top military commander, said on Wednesday that Russian forces were still operating in eastern Ukraine. Breedlove, on a visit to Kiev where he met Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko, said the Russian army was “training, equipping, giving backbone” to separatist forces.

Russia has repeatedly denied any militarily involvement in east Ukraine, despite mounting evidence to the contrary. Moscow has claimed any Russian soldiers in the east had either got lost or were on holiday.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/26/ukraine-banks-suspend-services-pro-russia-donetsk

So the Donbas has won their war of independence from Kiev.
Russia should throw of pretext and just annex Donbas region.
 
So the Donbas has won their war of independence from Kiev.
Russia should throw of pretext and just annex Donbas region.

It can't, as it recognized the 'independence' of the people's republics. But unlike Crimea, there have been no referanda to join Russia. Ukraine, on the other hand, along with most of the rest of the world, has not recognized any independence.

They should send some winter clothes to the NATO soldiers being sent there.

What, like in 2044?

I dont see why not.

That's because you don't understand someone repeating NATO statutes to you. Unlike Russia, NATO does not allow countries with an ongoing territorial conflict with another state to become a member, not does it hold military exercises in such countries.
 
It depends what you mean by a military exercise.

I think NATO's been holding a kind of military exercise in Afghanistan for quite some time. Yet I'm pretty sure Afghanistan isn't in NATO.

NATO, like many other organizations, does pretty much as it pleases, when push comes to shove.
 
Russia should throw of pretext and just annex Donbas region.
It can't, as it recognized the 'independence' of the people's republics. But unlike Crimea, there have been no referanda to join Russia. Ukraine, on the other hand, along with most of the rest of the world, has not recognized any independence.
Interesting. In a fantasy world of Western media, Russia has recognized the independence of people's republics? Didn't know that.
 
http://www.rbc.ru/rbcfreenews/547863b7cbb20f7b541df085 (in Russian)

"The Wall" project is well underway with 130 km of anti - tank trenches along the border completed.

"No one will grant us visa - free relationship with the EU if the border is not secured". - Ukrainian prime minister's speech on 3rd of September, according to several Ukrainian news sources.

http://gordonua.com/news/war/YAceny...lucheniya-bezvizovogo-rezhima-s-ES-46368.html (in Russian)

The latest news post (in English) on this i found dates back to November 5th.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukraine-hopes-to-wall-off-russia-370710.html

6PHWpqa.jpg
 
I doubt Russia will annex the territories outright. It wields all the power it needs to within them now and with them independent/contest, they can be used to stir up conflict with Ukraine whenever necessary.

See the breakaway regions from Georgia and Moldova.
 
Its been noted that up till this point taxes has been payed to Kiev...
What taxes and by whom? Possibly some companies with subsidiaries in Donetsk as well as in other parts of Ukraine have declared something, but otherwise I can't quite see this happening.
 
What taxes and by whom?

"Collecting taxes is arguably the most important step towards creating a functional government, since Kiev has stopped paying social benefits. Most local businesses are registered in both the Ukrainian and DPR tax systems, which “doesn’t allow enterprises to work effectively”, said Dmitry Neilo, a lawyer helping rebels draft a tax code.

Faced with the prospect of paying taxes twice on fees still owed to him by the Kiev government, the construction company owner Vitaly Grigoriyev is considering leaving Donetsk. “We’re waiting to see what model of government they will establish, and whether it will be realistic to run a business here,” he said."


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/06/ukraine-rebel-peoples-republic-states
 
I doubt Russia will annex the territories outright. It wields all the power it needs to within them now and with them independent/contest, they can be used to stir up conflict with Ukraine whenever necessary.

That would be another argument.

At any rate, the people's republics seem adamant about staying 'independent'. So it wouldn't be very wise for Russia at this point to start annexing territories they only recently recognized as being independent. There's also a practical argument: it's not quite certain these now well-armed independents will disarm just because Moscow wants them to.
 
In all honesty, with all the ethnic problems existing in Ukraine, how bad would a federalised Ukraine be? In comparison to the current situation?
 
In all honesty, with all the ethnic problems existing in Ukraine, how bad would a federalised Ukraine be? In comparison to the current situation?

It'd be good for Russia, because Ukraine wouldn't be able to join NATO or the EU.

I doubt there are really many ethnic problems in Ukraine, but I'm not sure what the exact effect of federalizing the country would be.
 
It's interesting to consider what the future of the Ukraine will be.

On the surface, the Ukraine without its pro-Russian regions in Crimea and Donetsk-Luhansk would be an easy target for the EU and NATO. However, legally Ukraine can't join either the European Union or NATO as long as these territorial disputes exist and it would be political suicide for any Ukrainian government to acknowledge the loss of territory in the Crimea and Donetsk-Luhansk regions.

It's a strange situation where Ukraine has to accept Russia's annexation of its territories in order to join EU/NATO.
 
"The Wall" project is well underway with 130 km of anti - tank trenches along the border completed.

25 years after Berlin Wall: Ukraine building barrier on Russian border ‘unacceptable’

The notorious "Wall" project is in full swing in Ukraine, with border guards burning the midnight oil digging anti-tank ditches and other fortifications along the Russian border.

"We have to date equipped 135.54 kilometers of antitank ditches and 86.42 kilometers of artificial barriers," Ukraine border guard chief Viktor Nazarenko told a press conference in Kiev on Friday.

The secretary general said earlier this week that construction of the wall along the border of Ukraine and Russia is ‘unacceptable.’

READ MORE: EU chief calls for decentralization and federalization of Ukraine

He added that the position of the Council of Europe is that the territorial integrity of Ukraine "must be upheld."

kha.jpg


http://www.voxeurop.eu/en/content/news-brief/4851728-europe-s-new-wall
http://rt.com/news/209779-ukraine-building-wall-border/

How Dare Ukraine build an antitank ditch on its own land ?
And its kinda crappy anti tank ditch at that.

I suppose Ukraine is rushing construction, its not exactly strong in terms of defense more like a border fence to stop Russians form vacationing inside Ukraine.
It will need millions of land mines to be of any real use.
 
Here's a nice summary of what Ukraine is up against:

PUTIN’S KLEPTOCRACY

Now in his third (nonconsecutive) presidential term, Vladimir Putin presents himself as the strong and virtuous leader who rescued Russia from the chaos, corruption, penury and weakness of the 1990s.

State-controlled news media and Kremlin spin doctors disseminate this message diligently — and to good effect, judging from Putin’s 80 percent approval rating. But with “Putin’s Kleptocracy,” Karen Dawisha, a respected scholar of Soviet and Russian politics at Miami University in Ohio, seeks to shred this carefully constructed narrative.

Her verdict is not merely that Putin’s boast of having built a potent, efficient state that fights for the little guy and against the venality of the powerful is bunk. Her bedrock claims are that the essential character of Putin’s system is colossal corruption and that he is a prime beneficiary. The thievery, she says, has made him fabulously rich, along with a coterie of trusted friends dating back to his days as a K.G.B. officer in Communist East Germany, then as first deputy mayor in 1990s St. Petersburg, then as head of the Federal Security Service.

In explaining the system’s workings, Dawisha enumerates the standard shenanigans of crooked regimes: bribetaking from domestic and foreign companies seeking business permits; kickbacks from inflated no-bid contracts for state projects; privatization deals rigged to enrich cronies who will later be cash cows for the Kremlin; illicit exports of raw materials purchased at state-subsidized prices and sold for a killing; “donations” from oligarchs eager to keep feeding at the government’s trough; real estate scams yielding mega-profits and palatial homes; money laundering; election-fixing; labyrinthine offshore accounts; lucrative partnerships with the mob; and the intimidation, even elimination, of would-be whistle-blowers.

To prosper, Russia’s superrich must demonstrate absolute loyalty to the president. As Mikhail Khodorkovsky and other tycoons have discovered, the punishment for defiance is severe.

Dawisha won’t disappoint readers seeking examples of industrial-size sleaze. She reckons Putin’s private wealth at $40 billion and lists among his prized possessions yachts, planes and palaces — along with a $700,000 wristwatch collection for good measure. As for the Friends of Vladimir, Dawisha writes that “more than half of the $50 billion spent on the Sochi Olympics simply disappeared into the pockets of Putin’s cronies.” The Rotenberg brothers, Putin’s childhood chums, alone garnered $2.5 billion of the outlay for the games.

Russia’s roster of 110 billionaires remains remarkably static, even as the wealthy in other countries rise and fall. What these plutocrats share are longstanding, close connections to Putin. And not a few are former K.G.B. operatives themselves.

Dawisha’s charges are not entirely new: Her copiously researched account relies on books, news reports, official documents, memoirs, WikiLeaks and witness testimonies collected by Russian and foreign journalists. The torrent of detail, some of it well known and peripheral to her kleptocracy theme, can drown readers who are untutored in Soviet and Russian politics. Still, “Putin’s Kleptocracy” is the most persuasive account we have of corruption in contemporary Russia. Dawisha won’t be getting a Russian visa anytime soon. Her indictment — even if it wouldn’t stand up in a court of law — hits Putin where it really hurts.

He may cop to being an authoritarian (he boasts of building a strong state), a nationalist (he wears a cross, preaches patriotism and praises the Orthodox Church) and an empire builder (he brags about retaking Crimea and is unapologetic about seeking a sphere of influence). But the accusation that he’s a common crook, or even an uncommon one, is different — and a charge he doesn’t treat lightly. That’s why Russian reporters avoid it, especially as political controls have tightened, and why Dawisha’s original publisher, Cambridge University Press, declined to print the book on the advice of its lawyers worried about the possibility of legal action.

The true tragedy is that corruption, state-sponsored, energy-driven and totaling hundreds of billions annually, has mortgaged Russia’s future. Freedom has withered. Money for the investments urgently needed to make Russia innovative and prosperous has been diverted to enrich a few.

Alas, that’s what kleptocracies do.

PUTIN’S KLEPTOCRACY

Who Owns Russia?

By Karen Dawisha

(From this weeks NYT Books Review: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/30/b...l?emc=edit_bk_20141126&nl=books&nlid=61820453)
 
While Ukrainian oligarchy government is laundering money through ''anti-tank'' ditches, shelling it's own children and leaving a part of the country to starve to death another convoy of help has been sent from the Russian Federation.

http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/764300
 
For its purpose (which is stealing taxpayers money)

I'm sure Russian taxpayers are much better off having their money stolen by Putin and friends...

While Ukrainian oligarchy government is laundering money through ''anti-tank'' ditches, shelling it's own children and leaving a part of the country to starve to death another convoy of help has been sent from the Russian Federation.

http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/764300

Well, seeing as the current crisis is in no small part due to Russia that only seems fair. I'm not sure I understand the bit about money laundering. That would imply taxes are illegal and need to be laundered? Is that a common practice in Russia?
 
I'm sure Russian taxpayers are much better off having their money stolen by Putin and friends...



Well, seeing as the current crisis is in no small part due to Russia that only seems fair. I'm not sure I understand the bit about money laundering. That would imply taxes are illegal and need to be laundered? Is that a common practice in Russia?

That's common practice everywhere, where taxpayer's money/foreign investment aid are involved: Ask for one billion to dig the ditch, hire 2.5 workers with one excavator to do the job, pay them 100 mil, collect 900 mil profit. Perhaps "laundering" is not the most suitable definition here.
 
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