Ukrainian Crisis thread 1.2

[red_elk]

It's that they were guided by an insane ideology, which attracted psychopathic leaders and henchmen

Such "scientific" description of communism only indicates your emotional involvement and inability of impartial judgement on the subject
I guess there's no point in discussion of Soviet policies with the person who consider Soviet leaders no less than impersonation of Evil.

 

[Tahuti]

Such "scientific" description of communism only indicates your emotional involvement and inability of impartial judgement on the subject
I guess there's no point in discussion of Soviet policies with the person who consider Soviet leaders no less than impersonation of Evil.

Why are you so insistent on considering the Soviet Union an incarnation of Russia? Is it not a thing in Russia to view the USSR as essentially a different kind of nation that subjugated Russia, among other countries, rather being Russia?

For the record, I'm still Pro-Russia on the Donbass thing, though I never understood the nostalgia for the USSR.

 

[luiz]

Such "scientific" description of communism only indicates your emotional involvement and inability of impartial judgement on the subject
I guess there's no point in discussion of Soviet policies with the person who consider Soviet leaders no less than impersonation of Evil.

You're misinterpreting what I said on purpose. Only two Soviet leaders were psychopaths - Lenin and Stalin. Any objective analysis of their actions will show their complete disregard for human life and their absolute coldness and lack of empathy in having thousands killed - and in accepting even millions of deaths as a tolerable cost for their policies. After Stalin the USSR was a pretty average dictatorship.

And Lenin and Stalin are not alone in the 20th Century in the tradition of psychopathic leaders willing to kill millions to achieve their goals. Hitler, Mao and Pol-Pot were made from the some cloth, just to name a few. So I don't view them as incarnations of evil, but as two in an unfortunately larger and multinational group.

 

[red_elk]

You're misinterpreting what I said on purpose. Only two Soviet leaders were psychopaths - Lenin and Stalin.

I didn't say anything, and actually don't care about exact number of Soviet leaders you consider psychopaths. I said about your ability of maintaining reasonable discussion about them.

Why are you so insistent on considering the Soviet Union an incarnation of Russia?

I think it was. Though I'm not particularly insistent about it. USSR had its obvious downsides which I never denied.

Is it not a thing in Russia to view the USSR as essentially a different kind of nation that subjugated Russia, among other countries, rather being Russia?

About a few percents of people in Russia would agree with this.

 

[luiz]

I didn't say anything, and actually don't care about exact number of Soviet leaders you consider psychopaths. I said about your ability of maintaining reasonable discussion about them.

What is a psychopath? What is a person who orders the murder of thousands? What is a person who doesn't care about causing the death of millions?

I'm not the one unable to have a discussion about them. When confronted with uncomfortable facts about those two individuals you freak out.

 

[red_elk]

I'm not the one unable to have a discussion about them.

You are the one who is unable to stop your frenzy, when discussing them.

 

[LamaGT]

I dunno. It's more like.. a remembrance. Never to do that again. You don't see Germans blowing up their concentration camps. It serves as a reminder. You don't just blow up history because it doesn't agree to the current party. Once you start demolishing history, you become the ones you're trying to forget.

Unless all this post is sarcasm. If it is, disregard all the above.

Yes it was sarcasm. Since the Lenins started to fall, the country has descended into civil war, in no small part due to the people bringing down those damned statues.

Why are you so insistent on considering the Soviet Union an incarnation of Russia? Is it not a thing in Russia to view the USSR as essentially a different kind of nation that subjugated Russia, among other countries, rather being Russia?

For the record, I'm still Pro-Russia on the Donbass thing, though I never understood the nostalgia for the USSR.

My personal view is that the Soviet Union was a union (duh) and as such Ukraine and Belarus are also heirs of the USSR. I can't say that for the non-Slavic republics though, those had much less internal influence.
I wouldn't say it was an utter failure. While the negative aspects were many, and at times huge, it also had some tremendous successes, many of which were undone by its fall.

 

[Darza]

If you mean they did not complete it, then I agree. But generally, killing ~5 millions of civilians and reducing for example, Kiev population by about 60% were quite impressive results for ~2 years of occupation. They probably were ahead of Generalplan Ost timeline.

They are not completed it, obviously, and they was stopped at the point making it indistinguishably between starting to fulfill the goal from the most potentially disruptive from them persons, planning to add the loyal ones later there; or simply by removing the ones who's being disruptive with all above that being a propaganda for their internal usage. Problem here is generalization again, as either we would have to do a guess about future plans to complete a cleansing of loyal Slavic Fascist regimes too, despite of them being a fierce Nazi allies (and we simply cannot know about it unless we would able to do some time-travelling fix of WW2), or what the whole story is somewhat hyped. As we know, Nazis was pretty good in hunting and exterminating Jews, unlike Slavs (maybe only due to a large difference in their population, thought). But the facts about Slavic collaborators regimes doing well in Europe, up to some of them being recognized as a self-ruling states by a Reich (that should be busy exterminating them instead) looks as some contradiction there.

As I said, I'm not trying to excuse failures on Soviet government part. But the absense of intention to kill people and presence of other reasons such as drought, must be taken into account, discussing the reasons of famine. To put it in simple terms, we are comparing accidental killing due to negligence, with deliberate murder.

Originally it was essentially about "the planned policy of extermination", not about deliberate murder. In simply terms we are comparing accidental killing due to negligence (on a higher level), with a death treats. Otherwise you would need to verify what the named victims was killed essentially in performing the ethnic cleansing plan, and not due to them being communist supporters, for example, and also explain why most European Slavic population in general suffered much lesser relative causalities during the occupation there. They was more, or instead, less special Slavs? Or the deal was not in their nation?

This argument would sound much more convincing, if you add a few quotes of me trying to speak for all Ukrainians or Russians.

Looks like i had got indeed not only bruises, but some sort of concussion aswell, now im clearly see what i mixed you with Snorrius here, and you do so only as a means of sarcasm (if i got you right). My very bad here, really sorry, looks like there is not much so damaging one's health as vacationing.

Thought i would say what the initial statement

I also recall reports that Ukrainians greeted the Germans as liberators: Of course Germany did not turn out to be no such thing.

is on the par with

Interesting. For the Russians it has always been a very popular place to go for vacation. For the last 50 years or so.

with both sentences requiring some labour for a claiming them being about "all", with Terxpahseyton clearly talking about some reported incidents, nothing more (not even using the word "most", what you're using as staple instead of proposed "some"). Luiz's statement is some other story indeed, agree here.

 

[Domen]

Interesting account concerning modern Ukraine's national heroes - Bandera's men:

http://www.polacynawschodzie.pl/index.php?page=tematy&id=48&lang=en

[Drohobych, the 1940s] The Ukrainians killed even their own people. In 1946 or 1947, a man came and said he had three kids. He asked if I’d give him anything to get them dressed. I asked what about his wife, and he replied: Our bandits hanged her. I say: How come? Your own people hanged one of yours? — Yes. It was already evening and she told our neighbour that she was going to the town to sell a pig to be able to buy shoes for the kids for school. They came at night and told her not to sell the pig, because they would come and take it away. The Bandera men, the ones who lived in the forest. The following night she took that pig to the town. Then, they came at night, she got up and said she was dead. The husband said he would go. They pushed him away, pulled her out in her nightgown and hanged her on a tree in the yard. A Ukrainian woman who worked with me said once that she wouldn’t stand it any longer. I asked what had happened and she said they were coming at night, taking everything away, leaving even nothing to eat. I told her not to let them in, after all they were one of yours, your Ukrainians. She said they were slaughtering their own people and beating them just as others. If you don’t give them, it means you are against Ukraine.
Wiktoria Kisiel

 

[red_elk]

Originally it was essentially about "the planned policy of extermination", not about deliberate murder. In simply terms we are comparing accidental killing due to negligence (on a higher level), with a death treats. Otherwise you would need to verify what the named victims was killed essentially in performing the ethnic cleansing plan, and not due to them being communist supporters, for example, and also explain why most European Slavic population in general suffered much lesser relative causalities during the occupation there. They was more, or instead, less special Slavs? Or the deal was not in their nation?

Obviously, the damage to civilian population depended also on other factors. The extent of fighting, guerilla activity, etc. I would say Eastern Slavs suffered very hard not only in ex-USSR, but also in other places, such as Poland.

Looks like i had got indeed not only bruises, but some sort of concussion aswell, now im clearly see what i mixed you with Snorrius here, and you do so only as a means of sarcasm (if i got you right). My very bad here, really sorry, looks like there is not much so damaging one's health as vacationing.

No problem. Generally, I'm trying to avoid excessive generalization in my statements, though I guess it may occasionally happen because of mistake or bad wording.

Thought i would say what the initial statement ... is on the par with ...

Well, of course I didn't mean all Russians go to Crimea all the time
The statement "For the Russians it has always been a very popular place to go for vacation" means that Crimea was in the top list of popular tourist places, where Russian (more precisely, Soviet) people go for vacation. According to statistics, collected for all Soviet people, but not provided here by me
The statement don't even assume that Crimea was the most popular place among others - I don't have that information.

 

[Domen]

The statement "For the Russians it has always been a very popular place to go for vacation" means that Crimea was in the top list of popular tourist places, where Russian (more precisely, Soviet) people go for vacation. According to statistics, collected for all Soviet people, but not provided here by me
The statement don't even assume that Crimea was the most popular place among others - I don't have that information.

So Crimea has been Russian Zaleszczyki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zalischyky#History

In the Second Polish Republic, Zaleszczyki, located in extreme southeast corner of the country, was a very popular spa, called Polish Merano, with sandy beaches located along the Dniester. The town was regarded as the warmest town in Poland and Polish capital of grapevine, with annual Grape Festival, taking place here every summer. Zaleszczyki had a direct rail connection with Warsaw and Gdynia (the distance of 1,314 kilometres (816 miles), the longest route in the Second Polish Republic). Furthermore, a luxtorpeda fast train connected Zaleszczyki with Tarnopol.

In 1939, after Soviet capture and occupation of Zaleszczyki (as it was then spelt in Polish), the beaches and orchards were destroyed. The Baroque town hall was demolished, and a monument of Lenin was erected in its spot. The Roman Catholic church of St. Stanislaus was devastated, and turned into a fertilizer storage. The evacuation of all the Polish government and military officials to Romania, following the Invasion of Poland in 1939, did not take place only over the two border bridges in Zaleszczyki (one of which only carried rail traffic, the other only a roadway) but also over a dual (road / rail) bridge near Kuty built in 1930.

Luxtorpeda fast train: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxtorpeda

More on Zaleszczyki:

http://www.polacynawschodzie.pl/index.php?page=miejsca&id=2056&lang=en

Zalischyky (Polish: Zaleszczyki) is one of the most beautifully located towns in Podolia (Ukraine). In the interwar period it was a very fashionable summer health resort. (...) Following the First Partition of Poland the town was incorporated into the Austrian Empire. Zalischyky’s heyday was in the interwar period when the town was not only a major tourist centre but also a centre of commerce and a road and rail hub. Dniester in turn was a major timber floating route from as far as Sambir. In the Second Polish Republic the town enjoyed the reputation of a highly-regarded and modern health resort, owing to its exceptionally mild climate also conducive to wine, apricot and peach growing. In the interwar period many holidaymakers rested in the local villas and on the beaches called the “Shady” and “Sunny” ones.

http://www.polacynawschodzie.pl/index.php?page=tematy&id=5&lang=en

[Zaleszczyki] Before the war there were many summer holidaymakers in Zaleszczyki, they came from abroad. There were many boarding houses in Zaleszczyki. “Bajka” on the street I used to go to my cousin. “Świt” at the Drozdowskis’, Villa “Róża”. Usually rich holidaymakers came. And it was so hot there! Sixty degrees centigrade in the sun. On a shaded beach you could boil eggs in the sand. Piłsudski came to us in 1932. He was greeted ceremonially. He was an old grey man… It looked very ceremonially. A torchlight procession in the evening, a parade during the day. He took the salute. He came by train. He was taking the salute from us, from the kids, from our school. Summer holidaymakers usually came by train. There were not as many cars as there are now. But the smell of petrol was so nice that we were running after those machines, the cars, and sniffed it like narcotics. It smelled nice. There were cabs. There were many cabmen, horse-drawn cabs. Zaleszczyki ranked second in the world among summer resorts, they said it was Polish Meran.
Barbara Medyńska-Michajłow

Barbara Medyńska-Michajłow is from a mixed Roman Catholic - Greek Catholic family from Zaleszczyki:

My father was a Greek Catholic. And my mother was Polish, Roman Catholic. My father’s name was Iwan, but they called him Janek, nobody called him Iwan. He was always called Janek. We went to the Greek Catholic Church. But we also went to the Roman Catholic Church. Father Urbański was a religion teacher and father Kasperowski was a parish priest. There was such a struggle of sorts. One Sunday they took me to the Roman Catholic Church, the other to the Uniate Church. But I do not care, there is one God in the world, there are no ten gods. In my class at school there were three Ukrainians, three Polish girls and 26 Jewish girls. I was the oldest sibling, with five brothers behind. In 1940, my mother went to hospital to give birth to another child, and I said: — Mum, if it is a boy, don’t come back home! I delivered an ultimatum. I took care of those kids. With nappies, and I was making all their clothes. They said you had to have seven professions under communism — I probably have more than seven.
Barbara Medyńska-Michajłow

 

[Darza]

Obviously, the damage to civilian population depended also on other factors. The extent of fighting, guerilla activity, etc. I would say Eastern Slavs suffered very hard not only in ex-USSR, but also in other places, such as Poland.

Exactly, i just have to remind what it was about claims of planned extermination here initially, what you saw impossible to even compare to, not the actions. Japs killed quite many Chinese and Korean people during occupation, but there is no recurring theme about "and they planned to kill them all". While Germans did some claim in their inner propaganda, so its often is trying to make it match the claimed, despite all odds. Propaganda for inner consumption is one thing, events happening at the same time is not necessary match them at all.

No problem. Generally, I'm trying to avoid excessive generalization in my statements, though I guess it may occasionally happen because of mistake or bad wording.

Appreciated. You're indeed doing it, and "most" it not the same as "all" for sure (thought initial idea about "some" looks more safe tbh, as "most" is about statistic already, and then about source reliability stuff, usually).

Well, of course I didn't mean all Russians go to Crimea all the time The statement "For the Russians it has always been a very popular place to go for vacation" means that Crimea was in the top list of popular tourist places, where Russian (more precisely, Soviet) people go for vacation. According to statistics, collected for all Soviet people, but not provided here by me
The statement don't even assume that Crimea was the most popular place among others - I don't have that information.

Of course you're did not, so i said it would need a hard labour to get your message such way aswell. I just skipped the explanation about (it would be quite similar to what you had wrote) as i thought it was blatantly obvious. Neither your or his message was about "all", both was about "some", despite not using the certain word. But taking the bad omens about recurring misunderstandings arise from my words, and fact what im even simply mixing one guy with another, i guess ill try to meet a physician if it wouldnt improve in a few days.

 

[red_elk]

Exactly, i just have to remind what it was about claims of planned extermination here initially, what you saw impossible to even compare to, not the actions. Japs killed quite many Chinese and Korean people during occupation, but there is no recurring theme about "and they planned to kill them all". While Germans did some claim in their inner propaganda, so its often is trying to make it match the claimed, despite all odds. Propaganda for inner consumption is one thing, events happening at the same time is not necessary match them at all.

Talking about planned extermination - I rather meant evidences such as massacre in Babiy Yar, which sort of confirm that Nazis were pursuing the goals of extermination and plan "Ost" at least to some extent. Treatment of Soviet POWs in Nazi captivity also comes to mind. It wasn't only written in their ideology and claimed in propaganda, there were actual examples of extermination, which happened in reality. Though, of course not all victims in Ukraine died because of this policy - war also took its toll.
By the way, plan Ost didn't imply extermination of all Slavs, if I remember correctly - just a significant part of them and expelling millions of them in Siberia.

Neither your or his message was about "all", both was about "some", despite not using the certain word.

His message about "greeting" can be interpreted both ways.
But next sentence about PM, I think, contains generalization about most of Ukrainians who allegedly didn't want to reintegrate into USSR.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13637425&postcount=499
If I misunderstood it and he meant that just some of Ukrainians opposed reintegration, then I would agree.

But taking the bad omens about recurring misunderstandings arise from my words, and fact what im even simply mixing one guy with another, i guess ill try to meet a physician if it wouldnt improve in a few days.

Take care! (Выздоравливай!)

 

[red_elk]

Looks like there is a substantial intensification of fights.
In addition to Donetsk airport, rebel forces attempting to advance near Slavyanoserbsk.
Artillery shell hit civilian bus near Volnovakha - 10 people killed. Both sides blame each other.

 

[Darza]

Talking about planned extermination - I rather meant evidences such as massacre in Babiy Yar, which sort of confirm that Nazis were pursuing the goals of extermination and plan "Ost" at least to some extent. Treatment of Soviet POWs in Nazi captivity also comes to mind. It wasn't only written in their ideology and claimed in propaganda, there were actual examples of extermination, which happened in reality. Though, of course not all victims in Ukraine died because of this policy - war also took its toll.
By the way, plan Ost didn't imply extermination of all Slavs, if I remember correctly - just a significant part of them and expelling millions of them in Siberia.

As far i can recall Baby Yar is a pretty much contradicting the idea of some special purge of Slavic population, as it was targeted mainly on a people, who was being killed due to their belonging to a same nationalities as in other occupied zones - Jews and Gypsies, while other victims suffered it as a POW, or as "personally unwanted and potentially dangerous" by the occupants (communists, potential resistance activists etc).

Mistreating of Soviet POWs was largely due to a fact what USSR refused to sign a Geneva Treaty protecting them. While we cannot be absolutely sure what it would change things, we still have an evidence, what POWs from a "Judeoplutocracies" signors was indeed treated much better in the captivity. Non-signing it resulted in throwing a Soviet POWs simply into Nazi's mercy, without any obligation required from them, and well, Nazi's mercy was not a good thing to rely upon.

If we would change "If national-wide hunger is the same for you as the planned policy of extermination" into "If national-wide hunger is the same for you as the planned policy of exterminating of a significant part of them and expelling millions of them in Siberia." it would become even more close things, thus quite comparable. Actually it would even start to looks as some "ineffective management" of a human resources in some country, pretty similar to an already common practice happening in USSR those time instead of "intentional genocide" or so, and still keep the question about "what was the future of the population of the Only Jew-Free City in a Europe, being mainly Slavs was supposed to be" open, for example.

His message about "greeting" can be interpreted both ways.
But next sentence about PM, I think, contains generalization about most of Ukrainians who allegedly didn't want to reintegrate into USSR.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13637425&postcount=499
If I misunderstood it and he meant that just some of Ukrainians opposed reintegration, then I would agree.

Well, i cannot see any generalization there after some reads. "Recall reports", thats it. For example, I can easily recall many reports of people drink and drive in various countries, and i would be surprized if somebody would understand me as if i do claims what all drivers are DUI in those countries. But as i have some breach in my English last time, maybe its my fault there, and caused by a language barrier.

"But I think the PM is right in assuming" - i hardly can see a personal opinion as something equalling "speaking for all", usually its qualified as very distant to it, opposedly. "I think what 100% of Panameans are dreaming 24\7 about exterminating of the Tibetans, via bombardment them with a colibri's eggs, and already building an ionic catapult for a last 200 years to achieve it": one can decide what my opinion on a certain subject is not worthy noticing, or could write me off entirely in result, but claiming what i pretend to speak for all Panameans there (especially not being one) would be wery weird assuming. To achieve that i would need to use "We, Panameans, are etc", or smth, at least not clearly stating what its my own opinion only (what is quite different level of statement on its own).

Take care! (Выздоравливай!)

Thank you, for sure, but id wish Mikie Sh. did so, as im definitely ok, compared to him. Skis are bad for your health, eh.

 

[Yeekim]

To put it in simple terms, we are comparing accidental killing due to negligence, with deliberate murder.

Even if, for sake of the argument, we accept for the moment that death of millions of people can be attributed to simple negligence/incompetence of the Soviets, I'm sure you can see how the affected population might want to get rid of the government who mismanaged them - to the point of taking a chance to pick up arms against them.

Especially since you've been rather sympathetic to the people who have picked up arms against the current Kievan government. Whatever grievances could be brought against them, seem rather ... irrelevant in comparison, right?

 

[red_elk]

Mistreating of Soviet POWs was largely due to a fact what USSR refused to sign a Geneva Treaty protecting them.

Geneva treaty protected POWs in general - not specifying that they must be from a signatory country. The reason of mistreatment was that Germans considered Slavs as subhumans, while giving French and British POWs preferential treatment.
Also, I didn't refer to Slavs only, talking about extermination policies. It doesn't matter much, were people executed in Babiy Yar Jews or Slavs, it was still a purposeful murder.

If we would change "If national-wide hunger is the same for you as the planned policy of extermination" into "If national-wide hunger is the same for you as the planned policy of exterminating of a significant part of them and expelling millions of them in Siberia." it would become even more close things, thus quite comparable.

It wouldn't. Otherwise, a few emperors of Russian Empire would be comparable to Hitler, just because they failed to prevent mass famine and starvation in their country. Quite a lot of people starved during Great Depression in USA - nobody trying to equalize their deaths with intentional murder.

 

[red_elk]

Even if, for sake of the argument, we accept for the moment that death of millions of people can be attributed to simple negligence/incompetence of the Soviets

That's not what I said. There were several other reasons.

I'm sure you can see how the affected population might want to get rid of the government who mismanaged them - to the point of taking a chance to pick up arms against them.

I can understand people who took arms against the government due to mistreatment.
But I have zero sympathies to the people who did this out of nationalism/collaboration with Nazis. For some reason the most significant resistance against Soviet rule was in Western Ukraine areas (Galicia-Volhynia) - which weren't even part of the USSR in 1932-1933.

Just as now, the biggest concentration of anti-Russian population is in Western regions of Ukraine - which didn't suffered from Holodomor. Though IIRC some people starved in Polish-controlled areas too, but I think it would be really difficult to blame Stalin for their deaths.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Destiny itself seems to wish to point out the way for us here. In
delivering Russia over to Bolshevism, Fate robbed the Russian people of
that intellectual class which had once created the Russian State and
were the guarantee of its existence. For the Russian State was not
organized by the constructive political talent of the Slav element in
Russia, but was much more a marvellous exemplification of the capacity
for State-building possessed by the Germanic element in a race of
inferior worth. Thus were many powerful Empires created all over the
earth. More often than once inferior races with Germanic organizers and
rulers as their leaders became formidable States and continued to exist
as long as the racial nucleus remained which had originally created each
respective State. For centuries Russia owed the source of its livelihood
as a State to the Germanic nucleus of its governing class.

– Hitler

The Russians throughout their history have always shown a particularly stubborn and tough manner of defense, while never being particularly gifted at offense. Their national character has a defensive nature. They are stolid and animalistic. They are accustomed to a hard and impoverished existence, and therefore do not hold on to life all that strongly. The average person has less worth than a bicycle. A rapid birthrate quickly replaces any losses. They have a type of primitive toughness that one cannot call bravery. It is entirely different. Bravery is a kind of spiritual courage. The toughness with which the Bolshevists defended their bunkers in Sevastapol was more a bestial drive, and nothing could be more mistaken than to assume that it was the result of Bolshevist views or education. The Russians were always like that, and will likely always remain so. It is also easier to throw a life away when there is no promise to it than when, even at the moment of danger, a distant paradise still seems to beckon.

One does not need to speak of the enormous danger that the armed uprising of such stolid millions is for Germany and all of Europe. For attacking soldiers, the motive of the defenders is not particularly relevant. The methods the Bolshevist commissars use to drive their troops to the last measure of resistance are not really all that important for the course of battle. It is however important to know it to prevent false impressions. Bolshevism is a master at exploiting the Slavic national soul. Only in Russia was this dreadful experiment possible. It required the primitive and bestial dullness of the peoples forming the Soviet Union, as well as their limited social and economic expectations. Its methods were then implemented with a consistency that amazed the observer.

– Goebbels.

The most harmless Nazi quotes considering Russians/Slavs.

Even if, for sake of the argument, we accept for the moment that death of millions of people can be attributed to simple negligence/incompetence of the Soviets, I'm sure you can see how the affected population might want to get rid of the government who mismanaged them - to the point of taking a chance to pick up arms against them.

Ja, dose Soviets are all Jews! Let Aryans govern der animalistic Russisch race!

 

[FriendlyFire]

On their own, of course. Soviet government which spent 300 mln. rubles in 1926-1933 on farm machinery imports, has nothing to do with it.

I thought in Soviet Russia the government did the reverse ????
They took all the "food" and sold it to buy industrial machinery to modernize leaving millions to starve to death.
Just like Stalin selling war material to Hitler and signing a non aggression pact for industrial machinery to modernize leading to ww2 and millions dying most of them Russians.
WAIT Iam starting to see a patten here.

Holocaust by hunger: The truth behind Stalin's Great Famine

Millions starved as Soviet troops and secret policemen raided their villages, stole the harvest and all the food in villagers' homes.

He knew Soviet power was suddenly precarious, yet Stalin kept selling the grain abroad while a shortage turned into a famine.

On June 6, 1932, Stalin and Molotov ordered 'no deviation regarding amounts or deadlines of grain deliveries are to be permitted'.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1038774/Holocaust-hunger-The-truth-Stalins-Great-Famine.html