UN apologists: respond to this.

I'm a bit confused about such things as "UN apologists"

People who take the UN at all seriously. Typically globalists and proponents of ideas like "international law."

and how easy people seem to confuse UNESCO and the UN.

UNESCO is a branch of the UN and its resolutions seem to be passed in a similar manner to General Assembly resolutions (a vote by sovereign states).
 
People who take the UN at all seriously. Typically globalists and proponents of ideas like "international law."

So the US, Russia, China, the UK, France.... and basically any UN member. Including... Israel.

UNESCO is a branch of the UN and its resolutions seem to be passed in a similar manner to General Assembly resolutions (a vote by sovereign states).

It's also much smaller than the UN. As you might have deduced from the number of votes cast in that bit you quoted. (I know, it's easy to overlook such details.)
 
So the US, Russia, China, the UK, France.... and basically any UN member. Including... Israel.

No. I don't blame countries for wanting the PR value of being part of the UN. None of them would actually comply with it if it meant harming their national interests, of course.

It's also much smaller than the UN. As you might have deduced from the number of votes cast in that bit you quoted.

UNESCO is a branch of the UN and is therefore part of the UN.
 
No. I don't blame countries for wanting the PR value of being part of the UN. None of them would actually comply with it if it meant harming their national interests, of course.

UNESCO is a branch of the UN and is therefore part of the UN.

Obviously.

Then get off Israel's case about creating a Palestinian state, because one already exists.

Well, if you can call an Authority criss-crossed by Israeli military checkpoints a state.

Governments don't make mistakes about basic issues, though (or if they do, they are termed "failed states"). Bad policies might damage the economy or start a war with another nation, but I have never heard of a functioning government forgetting to collect taxes in an entire province, or not calling up the army when tanks start rolling across their border. UNESCO is an organization whose goal is to preserve the world's cultural and historic sites.

Not really.

But I don't think that it should have any. The UN's voting system represents everything bad about democracy, and nothing good.

I think it makes perfect sense: the UN is a PR machine, and sites with great historical or religious significance are PR goldmines.

We seem to be rambling a bit.

Zionism is losing legitimacy. All Jews, globally, are losing their legitimacy.

Seeing as the goal of Zionism was a state of Israel, that seems a somewhat redundant statement. I'm not sure how 'Jews, globally' could be losing their legitimacy?

The Security Council can be almost as big a circus as the General Assembly.

I've never noticed either, actually.

Anywho, I don't see much to worry:

Netanyahu mocks UNESCO motion on Temple Mount: Like denying bond between Batman and Robin
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© Ammar Awad / Reuters

Tel Aviv lashed out at UNESCO after they failed to recognize Israel’s historic connection to the Temple Mount and the Western Wall, the holiest of holy sites for Jewish people. PM Netanyahu also joined the chorus of ridicule.
 
Well the state of Israel is losing the PR war, since it's very hard to appear fair and just when you're bombing tunnel rats with the most advanced munitions known to man. This frustrates international support in economic/political deals of Israel, but luckily the world has too many other problems and Jews are well connected, financially solid and smart enough to deal with it.
 
How to make an argument: use fragments of your opponents perceived position and put random words in quotes.
 
Not really.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Heritage_Site

Seeing as the goal of Zionism was a state of Israel, that seems a somewhat redundant statement.

The goal of Zionism was a Jewish state in the land of Israel. Finland could change its name to Israel, but that wouldn't make it Zionist.

I'm not sure how 'Jews, globally' could be losing their legitimacy?

Pre-Rabbinic Judaism was centered around the Temple and Jerusalem. Suggesting that that wasn't true doesn't only denigrate Judaism as a whole, it also adds fuel to antisemitic theories like the Khazar Myth.

Well the state of Israel is losing the PR war, since it's very hard to appear fair and just when you're bombing tunnel rats with the most advanced munitions known to man. This frustrates international support in economic/political deals of Israel, but luckily the world has too many other problems and Jews are well connected, financially solid and smart enough to deal with it.

It's more because the Arab states wield something like two dozen votes in the UN, the Muslim world as a whole has a dozen more, but Israel has one. Apparently, what we need are some Jewish tribal chieftains to seize land from the state and get recognized by the UN- that would give us some more clout.

Anyway, what the heck do Israeli military operations have to do with the Temple Mount having Jewish history?

How to make an argument: use fragments of your opponents perceived position and put random words in quotes.

I assume that you're referring to Agent327 here.
 
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It's hard to explain what I mean when I say "what is Israel losing?". But it's the root of my question. Are they losing sole access to something? Are they losing jurisdiction? Are they losing access? I don't get what the ramifications (if the resolution is followed) would be
 
Israel's just being self-entitled, spoiled adopted kids, trying to convince the world how poor and abused they are because their parents didn't give them candy. Never mind that they owe their entire existence of their Jewish homeland to the UN. Instead they cry, "Look, U.S.! The UN didn't give us our UNESCO site. They're denying our Jewish heritage! They hate us! The UN is so bad to us!"
 
It's hard to explain what I mean when I say "what is Israel losing?". But it's the root of my question. Are they losing sole access to something? Are they losing jurisdiction? Are they losing access? I don't get what the ramifications (if the resolution is followed) would be

These are recommendations. UNESCO doesn't have any power, legal or otherwise. I'm just using this to demonstrate why it (and the rest of the UN) shouldn't be taken seriously.
 

If you'd bothered to go one link further, you might have noticed that's just one of the things UNESCO does: http://en.unesco.org

The goal of Zionism was a Jewish state in the land of Israel. Finland could change its name to Israel, but that wouldn't make it Zionist.

Actually, it would. You see, Israel wasn't even the original goal for a Zionist state. But after a helpful suggestion from British Christians, Zionism adopted the goal of a Zionist state in Palestine.

Pre-Rabbinic Judaism was centered around the Temple and Jerusalem. Suggesting that that wasn't true doesn't only denigrate Judaism as a whole, it also adds fuel to antisemitic theories like the Khazar Myth.

I have some trouble following that reasoning. In part, because your original premise - Pre-Rabbinic Judaism was centered around the Temple and Jerusalem - is just plain wrong. See Schimon Schama's The Story of the Jews, chapter 1.

How to make an argument: use fragments of your opponents perceived position and put random words in quotes.

Sounds like bad advice. It's an excellent method to point out illogicalities though.
 
If you'd bothered to go one link further, you might have noticed that's just one of the things UNESCO does: http://en.unesco.org

How does this negate my criticism? Preserving cultural sites is one of UNESCO's most important functions. If it can't do that, then there's no reason to assume it's capable of doing much else.

Actually, it would.

You are the only forumer that I have ever considered might literally be a chatterbot. This assertion doesn't just not make a whit of sense, your statement below directly contradicts it.

You see, Israel wasn't even the original goal for a Zionist state. But after a helpful suggestion from British Christians, Zionism adopted the goal of a Zionist state in Palestine.

Assuming this is in any way true, it's hard to believe that the Zionists wouldn't have stumbled onto the idea at some point. Nationalism was kind of a big deal right then, y'know.

I have some trouble following that reasoning. In part, because your original premise - Pre-Rabbinic Judaism was centered around the Temple and Jerusalem - is just plain wrong. See Schimon Schama's The Story of the Jews, chapter 1.

Sorry, pre-exile Judaism is more accurate. Regardless, modern Judaism is directly descended from the cult of the ancient Judeans (which was indeed centered around the Temple).
 
These are recommendations. UNESCO doesn't have any power, legal or otherwise. I'm just using this to demonstrate why it (and the rest of the UN) shouldn't be taken seriously.

Recommendations, sure. But what would Israel lose if it followed these recommendations? I'm not being snarky. I cannot follow the legalese.
 
Recommendations, sure. But what would Israel lose if it followed these recommendations? I'm not being snarky. I cannot follow the legalese.

The government that did so would instantly lose its legitimacy among all but the most left-wing Israelis (and outrage plenty of Jews abroad). There would be a new Prime Minister the next day.

Regardless, the hypothetical of Israel actually implementing them isn't, as I pointed out, the most important issue here.
 
I'll try to understand their potential reasoning. Are those two sites historically important in Islam as well?

They are. Those muslim-era buildings are sitting on top. There are other runs underneath, certainly. But to get to those would endanger or destroy what there today. That is what UNESCO is concerned about, and that is why those building need to be specifically mentioned. Currently it's a jewish state that rules the area, so jewish archaeological remains are not endangered. The others, though...
 
How does this negate my criticism? Preserving cultural sites is one of UNESCO's most important functions. If it can't do that, then there's no reason to assume it's capable of doing much else.

Isn't that just another huge generalization though?

You are the only forumer that I have ever considered might literally be a chatterbot. This assertion doesn't just not make a whit of sense, your statement below directly contradicts it.

I'm sure that's a valid response to:

You see, Israel wasn't even the original goal for a Zionist state. But after a helpful suggestion from British Christians, Zionism adopted the goal of a Zionist state in Palestine.

Assuming this is in any way true, it's hard to believe that the Zionists wouldn't have stumbled onto the idea at some point. Nationalism was kind of a big deal right then, y'know.

Y'know, that really doesn't matter, since the facts (which I just mentioned) are what matter - not some alternate history which didn't happen. Since Zionism, as a response to nationalism in general, didn't have a nation-state to center upon, it seemed the perfect solution. But before the suggestion was made, Zionists didn't have any particular favoured place to call 'home'. Zionism made it so. You are right about one thing though: nationalism was a big deal, especially late 19th century nationalism: Zionism was a direct response to it.

Sorry, pre-exile Judaism is more accurate. Regardless, modern Judaism is directly descended from the cult of the ancient Judeans (which was indeed centered around the Temple).

That wouldn't make much difference. Ancient Judaism being centered around the Temple is a myth. You see, there was more than one temple - nor did the Temple in Jerusalem have authority over other temples. Schama mentions one in Philae, erected by Jewish mercenaries serving under the Ptolemees. But it's safe to assume that pretty much any Jewish community outside Israel of any substance would have one, if they could afford it.
 
They are. Those muslim-era buildings are sitting on top. There are other runs underneath, certainly. But to get to those would endanger or destroy what there today. That is what UNESCO is concerned about, and that is why those building need to be specifically mentioned. Currently it's a jewish state that rules the area, so jewish archaeological remains are not endangered. The others, though...

1. It said quite a few offensive things that can't be chalked up to this reasoning. "So-called Israeli Antiquities?"

2. This doesn't even work as an argument. Saudi Arabia is currently replacing ancient buildings in Mecca with shopping malls, and the response from UNESCO is *twiddles fingers.*

Isn't that just another huge generalization though?

Not really. As I said, a government that forgets to collect taxes in half the country isn't fulfilling the functions of a government.

I'm sure that's a valid response

It's something I felt ought to be said.

Y'know, that really doesn't matter, since the facts (which I just mentioned) are what matter - not some alternate history which didn't happen. Since Zionism, as a response to nationalism in general, didn't have a nation-state to center upon, it seemed the perfect solution. But before the suggestion was made, Zionists didn't have any particular favoured place to call 'home'. Zionism made it so. You are right about one thing though: nationalism was a big deal, especially late 19th century nationalism: Zionism was a direct response to it.

But Zionism as we know it (and for most of its history) has as its goal a Jewish state in the land of Israel. If the Revolutionary War was sparked by heavy taxes on tea, does that mean that "American Nationalism" is actually a movement for fairer tea prices?

That wouldn't make much difference. Ancient Judaism being centered around the Temple is a myth. You see, there was more than one temple - nor did the Temple in Jerusalem have authority over other temples. Schama mentions one in Philae, erected by Jewish mercenaries serving under the Ptolemees. But it's safe to assume that pretty much any Jewish community outside Israel of any substance would have one, if they could afford it.

This is as much as I've been able to find about this purported phenomenon, and I don't view Schama as a particular great historian, so I'm going to withhold judgment. But none of this refutes the original Jewish presence on the Temple Mount or the tremendous importance it has had to Jews even before its destruction.
 
Y'know, that really doesn't matter, since the facts (which I just mentioned) are what matter - not some alternate history which didn't happen. Since Zionism, as a response to nationalism in general, didn't have a nation-state to center upon, it seemed the perfect solution. But before the suggestion was made, Zionists didn't have any particular favoured place to call 'home'. Zionism made it so. You are right about one thing though: nationalism was a big deal, especially late 19th century nationalism: Zionism was a direct response to it.

That wouldn't make much difference. Ancient Judaism being centered around the Temple is a myth. You see, there was more than one temple - nor did the Temple in Jerusalem have authority over other temples. Schama mentions one in Philae, erected by Jewish mercenaries serving under the Ptolemees. But it's safe to assume that pretty much any Jewish community outside Israel of any substance would have one, if they could afford it.

The point of the Temple Mount being a heritage site "held dear" to the Jews as a people group has little to do with the religious and nationalistic straw men, that you are proposing. As you, seem to be so adamant that there is no authority associated with the point of there being a Temple there. Perhaps like your insinuation that building a Temple there would make no difference, but may make another religion or authority a little nervous where no nervousness is needed?

UUNESCO is more about culture and natural sites of historical relevance. Allegedly, it is not about religion and who controls what.

I'm a bit confused about such things as "UN apologists" and how easy people seem to confuse UNESCO and the UN. (But I guess a term such as "UN apologist" can be expected from an Israel apologist.)

This may explain it?

The resolution reminds me of when the Governor Chris Christie was accused of shutting down a bridge for construction purposes and was accused of using construction as a ruse for something else.

The bigger issue is the fact that the current Leader of UNESCO, has made it her goal to make UNESCO more than just a protector of cultural Heritage Sites. In essence they are doing the same thing they accuse the Israeli government of doing.

They are using the ruse of protecting historical sites to change the policy and effect of how Nations have to deal with political issues outside the scope of a Heritage Site.



This is as much as I've been able to find about this purported phenomenon, and I don't view Schama as a particular great historian, so I'm going to withhold judgment. But none of this refutes the original Jewish presence on the Temple Mount or the tremendous importance it has had to Jews even before its destruction.

The Muslims seem to be more identified with a "sacred" place, than the Jews on their religious sites. Even Christians seem to put a particular emphasis on certain places. The phenomenon of the Temple and other places of worship including the past usage of the Chinese Tabernacle, was more on the lines of a local place of worship.

The Muslim claim is that the prophet visited there. That is not a cultural or even historical relevance, but more a religions significance. That it happened at a point in history is not relevant. The cultural relevance comes into play in that they have visited the spot for hundreds of years. While it is true a Temple can be built or a tabernacle be set up possibly any where, there is a strong argument that building it in Jerusalem would place it in a more historically relevant spot as the first two Temples that have been attested to have been there in the past. This is regardless of religious or even cultural significance. The cultural relevance can only be attributed to a Temple actually being there and part of the culture.
 
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Contemporary Judaism is directly descended from the beliefs and mythology of Hasmonean-era Judeans. Making it into a nationalist movement, if anything, is probably making it more authentic.
I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here. Modern Judaism has undergone significant changes over the intervening two millennia, to the extent that a temporally displaced Jew from 116 BCE wouldn't know what to make of even a "conservative" modern Jewish service. The result though is that you have a group of people reaching back two millennia for a claim to a state with the intent to displace the current occupants. If reaching that far into the past isn't "giving your cause ancient roots", I don't know what is. Ur will rise again?



How is this a response to what you seem to think it's a response to?
You said:
Mouthwash said:
Sites that aren't in dispute can rely on their host countries to protect them.
Given that the legal status of East Jerusalem and the West Bank is the definition of unclear, by your own definition, the sites associated with Arabic and Muslim heritage cannot rely on the protection of the Israeli government.


He was "personally responsible" through negligence. He was not found to have actually planned or carried out the massacre. It's certainly possible to allow an atrocity to happen through inaction, but it's also impossible to know what Sharon's true intentions were.
Either way, a man the Israeli government own investigation of bearing personal responsibility for allowing Phalangist militia into a refugee camp to massacre refugees was later elected Prime Minister sends a pretty clear message that a number of Israeli voters aren't particularly bothered by his association with war crimes.
Unless I badly misunderstood you; you are saying a draft resolution in an impotent body of the second most useless international organization ever is giving official sanction to killers; but the popular election of a guy bearing personal responsibility for a mass murder isn't giving official sanction to the uglier aspects of Israeli politics.
 
In all fairness to Mouthwash, the UN's history with Israel in recent decades is a farce. A clutch of populist regimes rely on the demonology of Israel for support, but can't actually do anything about it, so they propose absurd and unenforceable resolutions, while a lot more populist regimes rely on the demonology of America for support, but can do even less about it, can't even propose their own absurd, unenforceable resolutions, so they support the former lots' absurd and unenforceable resolutions to insult Washington by proxy.

There are numerous valid and important criticisms of Israel, yes, but anybody who takes the United Nations seriously as a project for international cooperation must surely find its appropriation as a platform for blustering, syphilitic oligarchs deeply troubling.

The result though is that you have a group of people reaching back two millennia for a claim to a state with the intent to displace the current occupants.
Has the displacement of Arabs, as opposed to simply non-citizens, ever been a point of Israeli policy? Neither are humanitarian, by any means, but it's an important distinction none the less, given that it's the difference between driving a very hard and quite possibly unjust bargain on the one hand, and actual genocide on the other.
 
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