US health system ranks last in efficiency

It's not an equitable distribution. It's taking from the ant and giving to everyone. Yes, that's also giving to the ant, and it's quite possibly giving more than he might otherwise get without paying more, but that doesn't make it fair or just. Simple economic benefit is not how I define what is right or wrong.
You also conveniently forget that there might not be three times as many grasshoppers. I'd also like to see greater investment in education and a few other social changes. I wonder if any other country in the world has a private healthcare system. Are they all as expensive as the American one?
If you consider supporting what is right to be illogical, then I suggest you explain exactly how you're defining the words. I'd have thought that if you thought something was right, the only logical conclusion would be to support it.

So you think health care is a big reason why people commit crimes? Because they can't see a doctor they end up running drugs or breaking into houses? I think maybe a small percentage of people are like that, but criminals are motivated by other means. If somone is unable to provide medical care for their family they are also probably failing to provide a lot of other things, such as food and shelter. Those are FAR more important than being able to see a doctor, and far more likely to contribute to any increase in crime. UHC wouldn't fix those problems, and I don't think it would have any significant affect on crime.

As for some of these other posts saying that people against UHC are doing it only out of spite... you have to be kidding, right? There are PLENTY of reasons why we would rather pay ourselves then pay through our taxes. You realize that the US has THE BEST doctors in THE WORLD, right? We have THE BEST healthcare for those people who care afford it. The best doctors in the world come to America to be trained and they stay in America because they make the most money. I'd say right now, FOR ME, the system is working pretty damn well. I have access to better health care than any of you. Hell, I live within 10 miles of two of the best hospitals in the US. It's working for me, so why would I need more taxes? I'm looking out for myself here.

I'd also like to point out that the proposed UHC plan by Barack Obama would be funded by tax increases to the wealthy. It would tax inheritances worth more than $7 million, taxes on estates worth more than $1 million and eliminating tax cuts on those with dividends over $250,000 a year. Obama's plan would cost tax payers about $65 billion, but John Edwards universal health care plan would cost around $90-120 billion a year. You might chalk that up as some noble "rob from the rich, give to the poor" cause, though I can tell you that if Obama's plan gets put into action I know one person who will have to fire several of his employees because he'll get hit pretty hard with the 250k tax break expiring. It's not always clear cut "Everyone wins." My friend won't win. His employees he has to let go won't win. I won't win.
 
The problem with Obama's plan is the $250k dividend will simply shift from dividend paying to more companies buying back stock. There's already 17 companies that have disappeared from the S&P 500 this year by private equity firms purchasing them. Partly due to Sarbanes Oxley and part earnings yield (Earnings/Price ~5.8% compared to borrowing cost which can be written off = ~3.8%). That discrepancy on earnings yield and cost to borrow would only accelerate that trend.
 
Whoa there sally, I'm trying to forgot what I learned in my Financial Markets class, not remember.
 
Whoa there sally, I'm trying to forgot what I learned in my Financial Markets class, not remember.
You sound like a consumate politician. :p
 
So you think health care is a big reason why people commit crimes? Because they can't see a doctor they end up running drugs or breaking into houses?
As for some of these other posts saying that people against UHC are doing it only out of spite... you have to be kidding, right?

You're arguing with the wrong chap. I'm the one saying that lack of healthcare is not an important cause of crime.
I like the second paragraph in this quotation though.
 
Why are you booing a country that you are moving to? :confused:
 
Yup, the only conclusion I have made from this thread is that some people base their preferred system of healthcare on spite rather than efficiency.
Care to explain that? I'm afraid I don't understand this. Who are you talking about?
 
That's a scarily illogical leap of paranoia...
Clever, I like that.

:salute:

But even paranoids have enemies.

1) "most vulnerable", more likely, means those who are.... most vulnerable! The people who are most susceptible to disease and illness, such as the old, those living in squalid conditions, the disabled, or people with a high chance of inheriting degenerative conditions. People in such situations likely can't afford to pay for their healthcare, because of their condition - a vicious circle.
'Most vulnerable' was not defined in their mission statement. And that is fine. It is really not the place to define it. But something undefined can also be indefinable. Some one or some group will always be 'most vulnerable', no matter what.
2) Even if the people who commissioned the study are in favour of socialised health-care, it doesn't mean that the study itself is biased. Just because they believe in socialised healthcare does not change the fact that US healthcare is more inefficient (in terms of level service per dollar) than healthcare in other countries. This is largely due to the fact that US healthcare costs, for example, three times as much per person than healthcare in the UK (which is one of the most nationalised in the world).
This is from the Executive Summary of the report, which is
>>HERE<<.

Commonwealthfund (emphasis added) said:
The most notable way the U.S. differs from other countries is the absence of universal health insurance coverage. Other nations ensure the accessibility of care through universal health insurance systems and through better ties between patients and the physician practices that serve as their long-term "medical home." It is not surprising, therefore, that the U.S. substantially underperforms other countries on measures of access to care and equity in health care between populations with above-average and below average incomes.
In other words, the US system was compared to a different system and the US did badly. Apples and oranges were compared on how well they made orange juice and the apples did not do so well.

This report is all about an unequal comparison, which the authors acknowledge, and still the report focuses on this inequality.

This is bias and distortion.

The Report Itself

The Sample Data

In the Methodology Appendix section of the report (page 35 of the .PDF) it states that the data was drawn from surveys done in 2004 and 2005 of patients. Both surveys were done by phone.

The 2004 survey was about 'primary care experiences'.
The final sample included 1,400 in Australia, 1,410 in Canada, 1,400 in New Zealand, 3,061 in the U.K., and 1,401 in the U.S. Data are weighted in each country to adjust for variations between the sample demographics and known population parameters.
Or to order this another way:
  • UK: 3061
  • Canada: 1410
  • US: 1401
  • Australia: 1400
  • New Zealand: 1400
The 2005 survey numbers were similar.
The final sample included 702 in Australia, 751 in Canada, 704 in New Zealand, 1,503 in Germany, 1,770 in the U.K., and 1,527 in the U.S.
And these numbers in a different order:
  • UK: 1770
  • US: 1527
  • Germany: 1503
  • Canada: 751
  • New Zealand: 704
  • Australia: 702
The populations of these nations, according to Mongabay, last updated May 5, 2003.
  • US: 280,562,489
  • Germany: 83,251,851
  • UK: 59,778,002
  • Canada: 31,902,268
  • Australia: 19,546,792
  • New Zealand: 3,908,037
In the 2004 survey, the US and New Zealand had roughly the same number in the final sample, yet the US population is over 90 times larger than New Zealand.

Which leads to this, how many people in each country are represented by one response in the 2004 sample.
  • New Zealand: 1 for 2,791
  • Australia: 1 for 13,961
  • UK: 1 for 19,528
  • Canada: 1 for 22,625
  • US: 1 for 200,258
If the US had been sampled at New Zealand's rate, 1 for every 2,791 persons, it would have had over 100,000 in the sample. And the sampled base for the other nations would have been higher also.

I can see the physical task required to do 100,000 telephone surveys. It would be monumental. Yet it was not so difficult to do 3061 phone surveys in the UK. Given the population ratio of the UK to US (1 to 4, roughly), it would be reasonable to expect that the US sample size would have been four times larger than the UK's. In reality, it was less than half the size of the UK's sample (3061 vs. 1400).

Demographics
There are none.

Nada. Nothing. Zippo.

Nowhere in the report is there any breakdown of the age of the respondents for any survey in any country. We don't know anything about their age, race, sex, education level, income or family status. What is their living situation, do they have a chronic physical aliment or condition,

In the chartpak (a separate download, with charts of the data), only one chart, page 8, has any sort of demographics, as it refers to women, detailing Pap smears of women aged 25 to 64 and mammograms in women aged 50 to 64.

In a report that claims to be a serious study of the issue, I find the lack of demographics troubling and a serious omission. Are the demographics consistent country-to-country? Is one subgroup over sampled?

My Conclusions

The mission statement made me uneasy.

The blatant bias in the Executive Summary made me suspicious.

The unequal sampling of US data in relation to the sample sizes from other nations made me doubt the integrity of the data.

The lack of demographic data made me doubt the honesty of the data.

My bottom line: hogwash.
 
It's not an equitable distribution. It's taking from the ant and giving to everyone. Yes, that's also giving to the ant, and it's quite possibly giving more than he might otherwise get without paying more, but that doesn't make it fair or just. Simple economic benefit is not how I define what is right or wrong.
No it doesn't define it, but the assessment is incomplete if one ignores it. I'm saying that you have ignored this fact -- everyone benefits, and everyone is in a far better position than without the NHS. The moral assessment of right and wrong therefore comes down to this: Is it better for everyone to be better off, or worse off? Simple choice if you ask me.

You also conveniently forget that there might not be three times as many grasshoppers. I'd also like to see greater investment in education and a few other social changes. I wonder if any other country in the world has a private healthcare system. Are they all as expensive as the American one?
I don't know, nor have I ever seen any study, ranking, or article whose data concludes, implies, or suggests that insurance-based healthcare is cheaper or better than socialised healthcare. If you want to present some studies that come to a different conclusion then I'm willing to read them.

If you consider supporting what is right to be illogical, then I suggest you explain exactly how you're defining the words. I'd have thought that if you thought something was right, the only logical conclusion would be to support it.
If I thought something was right, but in practice it turned out to be completely wrong, I would reassess what I thought was right.
 
'Most vulnerable' was not defined in their mission statement. And that is fine. It is really not the place to define it. But something undefined can also be indefinable. Some one or some group will always be 'most vulnerable', no matter what.
My first point was really that you went from a slight and incidental ambiguity in two words, to disregarding an entire study based on "bias". (Which in inverted commas is my second point - it may or may not have a biased author, but the facts remain the same.)

In other words, the US system was compared to a different system and the US did badly. Apples and oranges were compared on how well they made orange juice and the apples did not do so well.

This report is all about an unequal comparison, which the authors acknowledge, and still the report focuses on this inequality.

So you agree that the US has poor access to healthcare? Good. That's a fact, and it is NOT bias and distortion to report it.

<stuff about sample sizes>
Its a mathematically proven statistical fact that the error in a sample is proportional only to the size of the sample, not the overall size of the population. The error in a sample size of 1,000 is ~3.1&#37;, regardless of the size of the population. This is typically the size of any sample or poll. If you look at polls in the newspapers, on TV, via market research companies, on the BBC News website, internal corporate research, financial analysis, or any other research source, you'll see that the sample size is usually just over 1,000. This is because of this statistical fact that the error is ~3.1%. A sample size of 100,000 yields an error of ~0.31% -- you've had to interview 100 times more people but you've only reduced the error 10 times.

For example, if you were to compare, say, the results of an exit poll with a random sample of 1,000 with the actual results when the votes are counted, you'll find that two-thirds of the time, the results differ by less than 3.1%.

I do question their use of data with a sample size of less than 1,000 though.

Demographics
There are none.
That's because it was a random sample.
 
Demographics
There are none.

Nada. Nothing. Zippo.

Nowhere in the report is there any breakdown of the age of the respondents for any survey in any country. We don't know anything about their age, race, sex, education level, income or family status. What is their living situation, do they have a chronic physical aliment or condition,
The lack of demographic data made me doubt the honesty of the data.

My bottom line: hogwash.

From your post:
Data are weighted in each country to adjust for variations between the sample demographics and known population parameters.
So they've done what you want to do already.
 
No it doesn't define it, but the assessment is incomplete if one ignores it. The moral assessment of right and wrong therefore comes down to this: Is it better for everyone to be better off, or worse off? Simple choice if you ask me.

I don't know, nor have I ever seen any study, ranking, or article whose data concludes, implies, or suggests that insurance-based healthcare is cheaper or better than socialised healthcare.

If I thought something was right, but in practice it turned out to be completely wrong, I would reassess what I thought was right.

I find that economic factors are entirely irrelevant to whether something is morally right or wrong. In fact, if we start to put a price on things we're pretty much forgetting questions of right and wrong: we're going for the utilitarian cop-out of simply equating right and beneficial.
I'm not a utilitarian. Simply because something is beneficial to me and everyone else does not make me think it morally superior.

I was asking whether insurance-based healthcare must, by necessity, have all the failings of the American system. I asked because so many people seem to equate the two. It would be like me saying that dirty hospitals are an inevitable result of having an NHS, simply because cleaning in the current NHS in the U.K. is poor.
I would be ignoring the fact that cleaning is poor because it's subcontracted at cheap prices, a problem that is not intrinsic to having national healthcare.
 
NOt sure if this has been brought up, but didn't hungary and poland get a insurance based system, but reaped no advantages in return? Just more costs for the normal person...
 
My bottom line: hogwash.
It's your right to question my sources, but your conclusion is absolutly unfair. It's entirly possible that the Commonwealthfund has a certain agenda, but that doesn't mean the study is fake. Read the biographies of the people involved.

You have also to consider that I'm limited in presenting on-line sources. Otherwise I would have added other studies.

But if that doesn't convince you, I made the effort to find similar studies.

Insuring America's Health: Principles and Recommendations (2004), Board on Health Care Services (HCS) of the Institute of Medicine (IOM)
The link will take you to page 22. Read until page 26.
Here is an excerpt:
Spoiler :
A comparison of 13 countries based on 16 health indicators conducted by Barbara Starfield (2000) determined the United States ranked among the worst, on average twelfth. The countries included in the study were, in order from the top ranked (best health status) to the lowest, as follows: Japan, Sweden, Canada, France, Australia, Spain, Finland, the Netherlands, United Kingdom, Denmark, Belgium, United States, and Germany. The United States came in last for three indicators (low birth weight; neonatal mortality and infant mortality overall; years of potential life lost), even after excluding external causes such as motor vehicle collisions and violence.

See also: Starfield, Barbara (2000), Is US Health Really the Best in the World?, Journal of the American Medical Association 284 (4), 483-485

B. Starfield: the Department of Health Policy and Management, Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health, Baltimore, Md.

Health indicators are arbitrary, but it is again an indication.

Also a very interesting news article in the New York Times
 
You realize that the US has THE BEST doctors in THE WORLD, right? We have THE BEST healthcare for those people who care afford it. The best doctors in the world come to America to be trained and they stay in America because they make the most money. I'd say right now, FOR ME, the system is working pretty damn well. I have access to better health care than any of you. Hell, I live within 10 miles of two of the best hospitals in the US. It's working for me, so why would I need more taxes? I'm looking out for myself here.

Yeah, the American system is great for people who are well off - but is everyone in the U.S. rich?

What about everyone else?
 
As the thread shows "everyone else" is a concept difficult to understand in USA.
 
There are PLENTY of reasons why we would rather pay ourselves then pay through our taxes. You realize that the US has THE BEST doctors in THE WORLD, right? We have THE BEST healthcare for those people who care afford it. The best doctors in the world come to America to be trained and they stay in America because they make the most money. I'd say right now, FOR ME, the system is working pretty damn well. I have access to better health care than any of you. Hell, I live within 10 miles of two of the best hospitals in the US. It's working for me, so why would I need more taxes? I'm looking out for myself here.
Another reason why healthcare is so expensive in the US, is the fact that hospitals always do every possible test on the patient. There is no culture of evidence based medicine in the US. For me, that's not THE BEST health care.

That's also a reason why a government regulated system is cheaper. Only tests that have a solid scientific base are funded.

A health care system is more then having the best hospitals and best doctors. It requires more then medicine to be healthy. If you take life-expectancy and mortality as indicators, then the US scores very badly. Having a lot of unhealthy citizens cost a lot of money for the society. Like Whomp said, in the longterm you can save tax-money by investing in preventive health care for all your citizens.
 
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