What are "American Values"?

[downtown]

Not to mention he was quite the ladies' man

Yeah, i wish i was half the pimp that ol' Ben was

 

[Inqvisitor]

Well....if we're going to use that awfully selective view of christiandom, then you're just going to look more wrong.

Who founded the country? Catholics? nope.

America was founded Catholic. The United States government was founded by Protestants, but as cannot be repeated often enough, it did not fully represent the diverse peoples it governed.

Who settled the western united states? Was it the catholics? Nope. Mormons.
Some of our country's greatest scientists? Jewish.

Highly subjective...

Our country's greatest cultural achivement? Jazz Music. Not invented by whites.

A stepping stone to rap...?

I dont even belive that Catholics are the largest christian group in America.

Yes they are. Not practicing of course, but neither are the Protestants.

Certainly, the American Catholic church is pretty weak, compared to the rest of the world. We're much more WASP

The American Catholic Church was reaching its peak in the 1950s but then the 1960s came around. WASP culture hasn't been dominant for at least a century.

Nice job neglecting to mention all the German, Irish, Italian, and other Catholic groups which have immigrated over the years and who contributed most to this country from the bottom up.

 

[downtown]

I dont doubt that Catholics have had a positive influence on America. But the fact is that many other religious groups have done all sorts of things for this country.

The Mormons settling the west isnt subjective. Explain to me then, how else Utah happened?

 

[JohnRM]

Well....if we're going to use that awfully selective view of christiandom, then you're just going to look more wrong.

Who founded the country? Catholics? nope.
Who settled the western united states? Was it the catholics? Nope. Mormons.
Some of our country's greatest scientists? Jewish.
Our country's greatest cultural achivement? Jazz Music. Not invented by whites.
I dont even belive that Catholics are the largest christian group in America. Certainly, the American Catholic church is pretty weak, compared to the rest of the world. We're much more WASP

Mormons did not settle the west. They settled Utah.

Some of our country's greatest scientists? Jews, Protestants, Catholics, Atheists, etc, etc, etc. Whats your point?

Our country's greatest cultural achievement? Jazz? Please tell me you are joking. Our greatest cultural achievement before Jazz, by far, is baseball. Jazz is not played worldwide. Baseball is (or nearly, at least).

If you are comparing Protestants (52%) to Catholics (24%), then no, but if you are comparing one specific denomination (such as Lutherans) to Catholics, then yes, they are.

 

[blackheart]

If you are comparing Protestants (52%) to Catholics (24%), then no, but if you are comparing one specific denomination (such as Lutherans) to Catholics, then yes, they are.

And here is hard data to back it up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Religious_affiliation

 

[JohnRM]

Not to mention he was quite the ladies' man

Only in his younger days.

 

[Inqvisitor]

If Benjamin Franklin did not help build this country, then I am a Chinese jet pilot. This guy helped found the first non-religious, private college in America (what is now the University of Pennsylvania), is largley responsible for acquiring the assistance of the French during the revolution, not to mention his good press work, inventions, etc. He also helped establish many churches in the Philadelphia area, and not for any one particular sect, but for all faiths, from the Jews, to Catholics, to Protestants. This man was an unbelievable asset to this country and critical to its founding.

"I fully agree with General Washington, that we must protect this young nation from an insidious influence and impenetration. The menace, gentlemen, is the Jews.

In whatever country Jews have settled in any great number, they have lowered its moral tone; depreciated its commercial integrity; have segregated themselves and have not been assimilated; have sneered at and tried to undermine the Christian religion upon which that nation is founded, by objecting to its restrictions; have built up a state within the state; and when opposed have tried to strangle that country to death financially, as in the case of Spain and Portugal.

For over 1,700 years, the Jews have been bewailing their sad fate in that they have been exiled from their homeland, as they call Palestine. But gentlemen, did the world give it to them in fee simple, they would at once find some reason for not returning. Why? Because they are vampires, and vampires do not live on vampires. They cannot live only among themselves. They must subsist on Christians and other people not of their race.

If you do not exclude them from these United States, in this Constitution, in less than 200 years they will have swarmed here in such great numbers that they will dominate and devour the land and change our form of government, for which we Americans have shed our blood, given our lives our substance and jeopardized our liberty.

If you do not exclude them, in less than 200 years our descendants will be working in the fields to furnish them substance, while they will be in the counting houses rubbing their hands. I warn you, gentlemen, if you do not exclude Jews for all time, your children will curse you in your graves.

Jews, gentlemen, are Asiatics, let them be born where they will nor how many generations they are away from Asia, they will never be otherwise. Their ideas do not conform to an American's, and will not even thou they live among us ten generations. A leopard cannot change its spots. Jews are Asiatics, are a menace to this country if permitted entrance, and should be excluded by this Constitutional Convention."
--Benjamin Franklin (recorded by South Carolina delegate Charles Cotesworth Pinckney)

Yes, Mr. Franklin was quite tolerant of all religious groups.
But no one man can be said to have built this country.

 

[downtown]

I'm comparing Protestants to Catholics. There are more WASPs than Catholics. Also, catholic record keeping is suspect, because unlike other religions, they keep you on the rolls if you change churches, so their numbers are inflated.

Mormons also helped settle Nevada (and are basically responsible for Las Vegas), Idaho, Colorado and parts of Califorina. While the only state they are single handedly responsible for is Utah, you cannot deny their importance in the rest of the westward movement.

Without Jazz music, there is no Rock and Roll. There is no Funk. No R&B. Even American Country music stole some from Jazz. All of those music genres are worldwide

 

[JohnRM]

"I fully agree with General Washington, that we must protect this young nation from an insidious influence and impenetration. The menace, gentlemen, is the Jews.

In whatever country Jews have settled in any great number, they have lowered its moral tone; depreciated its commercial integrity; have segregated themselves and have not been assimilated; have sneered at and tried to undermine the Christian religion upon which that nation is founded, by objecting to its restrictions; have built up a state within the state; and when opposed have tried to strangle that country to death financially, as in the case of Spain and Portugal.

For over 1,700 years, the Jews have been bewailing their sad fate in that they have been exiled from their homeland, as they call Palestine. But gentlemen, did the world give it to them in fee simple, they would at once find some reason for not returning. Why? Because they are vampires, and vampires do not live on vampires. They cannot live only among themselves. They must subsist on Christians and other people not of their race.

If you do not exclude them from these United States, in this Constitution, in less than 200 years they will have swarmed here in such great numbers that they will dominate and devour the land and change our form of government, for which we Americans have shed our blood, given our lives our substance and jeopardized our liberty.

If you do not exclude them, in less than 200 years our descendants will be working in the fields to furnish them substance, while they will be in the counting houses rubbing their hands. I warn you, gentlemen, if you do not exclude Jews for all time, your children will curse you in your graves.

Jews, gentlemen, are Asiatics, let them be born where they will nor how many generations they are away from Asia, they will never be otherwise. Their ideas do not conform to an American's, and will not even thou they live among us ten generations. A leopard cannot change its spots. Jews are Asiatics, are a menace to this country if permitted entrance, and should be excluded by this Constitutional Convention."
--Benjamin Franklin (recorded by South Carolina delegate Charles Cotesworth Pinckney)

Yes, Mr. Franklin was quite tolerant of all religious groups.
But no one man can be said to have built this country.

I am going to need to see a link, because I have NEVER heard of any such thing.

 

[JohnRM]

I submit the following link...

http://www.adl.org/special_reports/franklin_prophecy/franklin_intro.asp

This article, which thoroughly documents the history of the transparent fraud known as the Franklin "Prophecy", appeared almost forty-five years ago in the April-May 1954 issue of Facts, a publication of the Anti-Defamation League. At the time, the authors wrote "This 20-year-old anti-Semitic hoax is circulating again." Today, more than sixty-five years after it was manufactured, the "Prophecy" it is still circulating, a staple of anti-Semitic propaganda. It can be found on a number of web sites maintained by haters and hate-groups. The article is, therefore, still timely and instructive

Another anti-Semitic hoax on history, of a piece with that incredible forgery, The Protocols of The Learned Elders of Zion, but not as widely distributed nor as successful in creating the pogrom atmospheres that were the achievements of the Protocols, is a speech attributed to Benjamin Franklin during the Constitutional Convention of 1787. The anti-Semitic movement, which founded the hoax, calls it the Franklin Prophecy — ascribing to Franklin a dire warning that unless Jews were expelled from the new nation by Constitutional decree they would ultimately immigrate in great numbers to the detriment of the Christian population.

Of course, no such speech was ever made. But the hoaxers sought to impart an aura of historical credibility to the fake by claiming that the speech is quoted in a "private diary" of Charles Pinckney, Revolutionary leader who was delegate from South Carolina to the Constitutional Convention. They also maintain that the diary is now in the possession of the Franklin Institute in Philadelphia, a bald lie which Henry Butler Allen, director of the Institute, has often refuted. Allen says that "historians and librarians have not been able to find [the diary] or any record of it having existed."

A copy of the forgery was anonymously circulated through the mails this month [May 1954] on stationery captioned WAR DEPARTMENT, OFFICE OF THE CHIEF OF STAFF. The envelope bore a May 3 postmark from Atlanta, Ga. This is the latest in a series of recent incidents that suggest another revival of the Prophecy. A copy was picked up earlier this year at a Tampa, Fla., bus stop, and there have been recent distributions of it in Nebraska, Pennsylvania and Alabama.

 

[Inqvisitor]

I'm comparing Protestants to Catholics. There are more WASPs than Catholics. Also, catholic record keeping is suspect, because unlike other religions, they keep you on the rolls if you change churches, so their numbers are inflated.

There aren't more WASPs in the entire world than Catholics. Catholic record-keeping isn't what is used in forming demographic statistics. Why would the Church inflate numbers anyway? Bishops don't go up for re-election...

Without Jazz music, there is no Rock and Roll. There is no Funk. No R&B. Even American Country music stole some from Jazz. All of those music genres are worldwide

Where would the world be?!

 

[downtown]

There aren't more WASPs in the entire world than Catholics. Catholic record-keeping isn't what is used in forming demographic statistics. Why would the Church inflate numbers anyway? Bishops don't go up for re-election...



Where would the world be?!

So they can go to the world and say they have a billion catholics. Well, when you baptize everybody in freaking Brazil, you're going to have a high number of catholics, regardless if any of these people are...you know, actually catholic.

There are hundreds of thousands of good, God-fearing Catholics in this country, and millions in the world, and thats good. But dont try to tell me that there are a billion that actually know any creeds and go to church.

As for your other statement, it'd be a crying shame if the world only had classical music.

 

[Inqvisitor]

I submit the following link...

http://www.adl.org/special_reports/franklin_prophecy/franklin_intro.asp

Seriously people complain when I link news from the BNP, but here you source the hate group ADL, which is simply beyond rational debate.

The quotes can be found here, but they are from eyewitnesses at the Convention.
http://www.radioislam.net/bush/jewishpower.htm

 

[superisis]

hmm the most intresting point to come out of this thread:

Jazz vs Baseball.

hmm... I can't call that one... but I'd guess Jazz.

 

[JohnRM]

Seriously people complain when I link news from the BNP, but here you source the hate group ADL, which is simply beyond rational debate.

The quotes can be found here, but they are from eyewitnesses at the Convention.
http://www.radioislam.net/bush/jewishpower.htm

First, let me applaud you for side-stepping the issue, brilliantly.

Otherwise, go ahead and Google "Benjamin Franklin anti-semitic" and you will get a plethora of websites other than ADL.

Oh, and I did not even realize that it was the ADL site, if it makes you feel better.

 

[jamiethearcher]

American values? Sex, drugs and Rock and Roll!

I am sure I am not the first to post this, but it's what came to mind

 

[bhsup]

...but here you source the hate group ADLhttp://www.radioislam.net/bush/jewishpower.htm...

When did the ADL become a hate group? Man, I really wish people would keep me apprised of these things better.

 

[Babbler]

Wow. Just... wow.

Seriously people complain when I link news from the BNP, but here you source the hate group ADL, which is simply beyond rational debate.

The quotes can be found here, but they are from eyewitnesses at the Convention.
http://www.radioislam.net/bush/jewishpower.htm

I going to say one thing only (not because I have nothing to say, but I don't have enugh space):

 

[Winner]

Baseball, Hotdogs, Apple Pie and Chevrolet.

And I thought it was freedom and democracy

Well, at least you're being realistic.

 

[Kayak]

Wow. Just... wow.



I going to say one thing only (not because I have nothing to say, but I don't have enugh space):

I'm sorry . It's just so facinating to see.

@John, Thanks for that link. That has to be some of the most revolting propaganda I've ever seen.