What does a MAGA hat stand for?

[cardgame]

Everyone has a price is just a facet of human nature

Depending on how you frame it, you could say we are manipulative and add it to the anti-american pile instead of counting it as a positive

 

[Commodore]

Everyone has a price is just a facet of human nature

Depending on how you frame it, you could say we are manipulative and add it to the anti-american pile instead of counting it as a positive

Maybe. But I would say that once you take our money, you kinda lose any right to criticize us since you too are now profiting from whatever nefarious deed we are being accused of this week.

Basically, you can't claim a moral high ground when you are benefiting from the same system you are lashing out against.

 

[cardgame]

I'm benefiting from American imperialism by virtue of being born an American citizen, that doesn't mean I can't criticize it from a moral high ground, I didn't choose this.

 

[Commodore]

I'm benefiting from American imperialism by virtue of being born an American citizen, that doesn't mean I can't criticize it, I didn't choose this.

You kinda chose it. Citizenship is really only involuntary until you are 18. At that point you could renounce your US citizenship, pay your 30% exit tax and go find your forever home. So I would say every day you remain a citizen after your 18th birthday has been a conscious choice to continue benefiting from this system.

And by all means, criticize. My problem is when that criticism takes the form of moral grandstanding, finger-wagging and a "shame on you" tone, like those criticizing are so much better than us. It's at that point we just have to roll our eyes and say "how much to make you shut up?" Now you could criticize us for bribing nations into compliance, but funny how no one seems to ever refuse our bribes.

The point being that every nation out there is just as dirty as the US. And while I'm not a Christian, my favorite Bible verse is that one about "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

 

[Estebonrober]

You kinda chose it. Citizenship is really only involuntary until you are 18. At that point you could renounce your US citizenship, pay your 30% exit tax and go find your forever home. So I would say every day you remain a citizen after your 18th birthday has been a conscious choice to continue benefiting from this system.

And by all means, criticize. My problem is when that criticism takes the form of moral grandstanding, finger-wagging and a "shame on you" tone, like those criticizing are so much better than us. It's at that point we just have to roll our eyes and say "how much to make you shut up?" Now you could criticize us for bribing nations into compliance, but funny how no one seems to ever refuse our bribes.

The point being that every nation out there is just as dirty as the US. And while I'm not a Christian, my favorite Bible verse is that one about "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

The finger wagging shame on you tone just doesn't work anyways. I'm constantly disappointed about the american electorate and I go on about it here but generally its not the kind of comment I would use in person. Its an honest expression in anonymity.

Criticism is more American than Apple Pie. "I just wanna say. . . and Let me tell you. . ."

 

[IglooDame]

You kinda chose it. Citizenship is really only involuntary until you are 18. At that point you could renounce your US citizenship, pay your 30% exit tax and go find your forever home. So I would say every day you remain a citizen after your 18th birthday has been a conscious choice to continue benefiting from this system.

And by all means, criticize. My problem is when that criticism takes the form of moral grandstanding, finger-wagging and a "shame on you" tone, like those criticizing are so much better than us. It's at that point we just have to roll our eyes and say "how much to make you shut up?" Now you could criticize us for bribing nations into compliance, but funny how no one seems to ever refuse our bribes.

The point being that every nation out there is just as dirty as the US. And while I'm not a Christian, my favorite Bible verse is that one about "let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

International relations is all about self-interest, sure. Even disaster relief, as good as it makes USians feel for an aircraft carrier or amphib assault ship to show up offshore and start flying in rescue personnel and supplies to ___ (fill in here), is also still a flag-flying thing. But there's a sort of national honor - which does translate to self-interest in the long term, if not the short term- that varies from country to country, and it's something that has eroded with the US over the past few years. I'd say "IMHO", but the Syria pullout is simple fact. Sure, for some people (and some leaders) that national honor doesn't matter, but for others it does.

 

[Patine]

The most important bipartisan cause is the aggrandizement of the capitalists, not blocking third parties. It's first-past-the-post voting that makes third parties unviable, not some sort of conspiracy of the two major parties.

It may surprise you to know that Canada and the UK have, if not fully developed multi-party systems, elections where parties outside their main two have played "kingmaker" roles and thus affected the political scheme, and gotten concessions from a major party or other by propping up their governments, who hadn't, on their own, achieved full, governing majorities, but governed by right of strong pluralities. But I guess it's JUST FPTP that keeps the two-party system in the U.S. as is - no other factor at all. The Anglosphere FPTP examples just to the north and right across the Atlantic don't any flaws in the thinking that it might be more than JUST that in the U.S. And, of course, we're only talking the legislative branches of three countries hear anyways. The highly and absolutely unrepresentative nature, at the end of the day, of U.S. Presidential elections is a whole other layer of sauce on the affair.

 

[Patine]

Everyone has a price is just a facet of human nature

Depending on how you frame it, you could say we are manipulative and add it to the anti-american pile instead of counting it as a positive

But the price for every human being is not always in fiat-based, contextual-purchasing-power, national bank or Federal reserve issued tender (or BitCoin or even flimsier virtual currency) payouts, you'd be surprised to learn.

 

[Traitorfish]

You kinda chose it. Citizenship is really only involuntary until you are 18. At that point you could renounce your US citizenship, pay your 30% exit tax and go find your forever home. So I would say every day you remain a citizen after your 18th birthday has been a conscious choice to continue benefiting from this system.

"Tow the line or become a stateless refugee" is not a meaningful choice to the vast majority of people.

 

[stinkubus]

It may surprise you to know that Canada and the UK have, if not fully developed multi-party systems, elections where parties outside their main two have played "kingmaker" roles and thus affected the political scheme, and gotten concessions from a major party or other by propping up their governments, who hadn't, on their own, achieved full, governing majorities, but governed by right of strong pluralities. But I guess it's JUST FPTP that keeps the two-party system in the U.S. as is - no other factor at all. The Anglosphere FPTP examples just to the north and right across the Atlantic don't any flaws in the thinking that it might be more than JUST that in the U.S. And, of course, we're only talking the legislative branches of three countries hear anyways. The highly and absolutely unrepresentative nature, at the end of the day, of U.S. Presidential elections is a whole other layer of sauce on the affair.

FPTP induces the polity to coalesce around two major parties. The US, or rather each state in the US since they run their own elections, goes the extra mile with ridiculous ballot access laws. The only way you are getting on a ballot without being a Democrat or Republican is if those in power want you on the ballot so that you can influence the final results in their favor.

 

[stinkubus]

"Tow the line or become a stateless refugee" is not a meaningful choice to the vast majority of people.

It is to authoritarians who masquerade as libertarians.

 

[IglooDame]

It is to authoritarians who masquerade as libertarians.

A lot of USian-flavored libertarians tend to be less opposed to immigration than our socially conservative brethren, and "if you don't like it GTFO" isn't a common libertarian response, it's more the 'Murica-first types.

 

[cardgame]

I have not noticed that around my neck of the woods Igloo. Might be your special breed of NH libertarians?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

All the libertarians I have met irl have been conservatives that just liked the label. They didn't seem to apply any libertarian principles in practice as they opposed pretty much any and every social liberty. They just liked the justification for lowering taxes and regulations that libertarianism offers.

 

[cardgame]

All the libertarians I have met irl have been conservatives that just liked the label. They didn't seem to apply any libertarian principles in practice as they opposed pretty much any and every social liberty. They just liked the justification for lowering taxes and regulations that libertarianism offers.

100% precision description of all the libertarians I've met or talked to.

 

[IglooDame]

I have not noticed that around my neck of the woods Igloo. Might be your special breed of NH libertarians?

Maybe? Though I find it difficult to believe that any "socially liberal" people (those tend to be fans of the Bill of Rights, other than the second amendment) that are bigger fans than most of freedom of speech would be unhappy with someone expressing discontent with one's government.

I'll grant that it's sort of a True Scotsman argument, but then again stinkubus did say authoritarians masquerading as libertarians, so yeah. Perhaps it's like the federalists and states-rights folk that are very vocal about it right up until the feds or their state is opposed to some particular cause they like.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

100% precision description of all the libertarians I've met or talked to.

Oh but I forgot:
Or they have a fetish with the gold standard!

Actually no, I have not seen that in real life, only here.

 

[cardgame]

Oh but I forgot:
Or they have a fetish with the gold standard!

And if that's the case it's a coin flip on whether or not they buy into the entire alex jones/glenn beck/rush limbaugh package deal.

 

[IglooDame]

Okay, I'm just going to back away and let y'all have at it.

 

[stinkubus]

All the libertarians I have met irl have been conservatives that just liked the label. They didn't seem to apply any libertarian principles in practice as they opposed pretty much any and every social liberty. They just liked the justification for lowering taxes and regulations that libertarianism offers.

Ding ding ding. We have a winner.

The same people who fear the government for all sorts of reasons don't seem to have a problem advocating for a system whereby they would practically be owned by their employers. Although I would say I've met more than a few conscientious people who simply hand-wave away the more draconian possibilities of such a society out of hand because they are simply inconceivable to them.

If you want to know where the moneyed interested really stand just realize that the Libertarian Party, who officially support things like open borders and legal abortions, was created by the Koch brothers. These are the same guys who funding damn near every "Build the Wall" and anti-abortion Republican in congress.