What does a MAGA hat stand for?

[Cloud_Strife]

You have to live with the fact that you've voted for a party that hates LGBTQ people and that's on you, that you've somehow rationalized by claiming you're against baby murder even as they lock up Hispanic and African American children is perhaps a bit of cognitive dissonance on your part, so go do what you like but at least I know now that you aren't anything remotely like an ally.

At this point gop voters have long since burnt out any benefit of the doubt; they voted for a bigoted party that supports, enables and elevates bigots so what does that say about you and your fellow gop voters?

It says that at the very least you are willing to tolerate certain levels of bigotry so don't gp crying about how unfair it is when people like you are part of the problem.

I have no sympathy for you or @rah you both made your decisions now go live with the consequences of them.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I have never met anyone running for local government. :-(

I do not go to council meetings though. I follow what's going on but I don't participate like I should. Resistbot goes down to the state level but not the city, unfortunately. I use that a lot to communicate my wishes at the state and federal level.

Our council meetings stream on the internet and are available on YouTube, so I don't usually go in person. I do make enough of a stir in the comments section of the local news site that most local politicians will take a meeting with me if I ask for it though.

 

[Estebonrober]

*DISCLAIMER* I'm not a Trumpist, use the Search function and see I really hoped Hilary would win, just like I hope Biden or one of the other centrist Democrats will win this time. I'm also a Latin American, a Hispanic, so according to current standards I'm a poor oppressed minority and must be heard

But my point: there is, way, way too much hysteria about Trump and his supporters. Just read this thread : they have been repeatedly and non-ironically compared to the Nazis and the KKK. But there are no death camps or mass lynchings in the US. When asked concretely how's its worse now for minorities, someone said Trump is banning trans people in the military and rolling back some Healthcare stuff. This sucks indeed, but does not make it comparable to Nazi Germany. In the vast majority of countries in the world trans cannot serve in the military, and the vast majority of countries are not ruled by Nazis or the KKK. People mention his heavy-handed approach towards illegal immigrants, but again, not really comparable to the Third Reich is it. Again, in most countries illegal immigrants can expect a pretty rough time, often far worse than in the US. And this doesn't make most of the world Nazi country.

People, including celebrities and journalists, talk without irony of being part of the Resistance, as if they were risking their lives and doing something heroic like the WW2 Résistants of occupied Europe. But they aren't, they just sound ridiculous and and self-aggrandizing.

Trump won roughly half the votes and continues to be supported by over 40% of Americans. The US cannot function if half the country believes the other half to be Nazis and hates them accordingly.

So either there are death camps or there is no institutional racism? I mean there is a vast ocean of nuance in there. I think the concern is that, as I have shown here and elsewhere, he promoted a dystopian nightmare that largely blames minorities for the nations ills and then installed white nationalists into his cabinet.

By fiat that means wearing a hat, whose phraseology has always been sort of racist in tone, is sort of a racist act. I get that not all these people think themselves as racist. That doesn’t mean they are not propping up systemic racism in their political actions.

This is a point I tried to bring up in a prior thread about racism that got closed. There are levels. My brothers do not act overtly racist, but they do support policies that promote systemic discrimination from governments and corporations. That’s a real problem. I try not to call them racist, but their actions as racist. I admit it’s hard to make the distinction clear.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

What is inherently racist (even if only "sort of") about "Make America Great Again"? I mean, I get the argument that the current usage of the phrase, the hats etc, could be considered racist by association, but you're saying the words themselves are racist? Why? Is it just the "again" part that makes it so? Seems a bit of a stretch.

 

[Gorbles]

*DISCLAIMER* I'm not a Trumpist, use the Search function and see I really hoped Hilary would win, just like I hope Biden or one of the other centrist Democrats will win this time. I'm also a Latin American, a Hispanic, so according to current standards I'm a poor oppressed minority and must be heard

But my point: there is, way, way too much hysteria about Trump and his supporters. Just read this thread : they have been repeatedly and non-ironically compared to the Nazis and the KKK. But there are no death camps or mass lynchings in the US. When asked concretely how's its worse now for minorities, someone said Trump is banning trans people in the military and rolling back some Healthcare stuff. This sucks indeed, but does not make it comparable to Nazi Germany. In the vast majority of countries in the world trans cannot serve in the military, and the vast majority of countries are not ruled by Nazis or the KKK. People mention his heavy-handed approach towards illegal immigrants, but again, not really comparable to the Third Reich is it. Again, in most countries illegal immigrants can expect a pretty rough time, often far worse than in the US. And this doesn't make most of the world Nazi country.

People, including celebrities and journalists, talk without irony of being part of the Resistance, as if they were risking their lives and doing something heroic like the WW2 Résistants of occupied Europe. But they aren't, they just sound ridiculous and and self-aggrandizing.

Trump won roughly half the votes and continues to be supported by over 40% of Americans. The US cannot function if half the country believes the other half to be Nazis and hates them accordingly.

You don't suddenly invalidate comparisons to the Nazi Party by claiming there are no death camps in the US. That is not the sole definition of what makes something analogous to the Nazi Party. If that's the kind of argument you're running with, you're going to get a lot of pushback.

 

[luiz]

So either there are death camps or there is no institutional racism? I mean there is a vast ocean of nuance in there. I think the concern is that, as I have shown here and elsewhere, he promoted a dystopian nightmare that largely blames minorities for the nations ills and then installed white nationalists into his cabinet.

By fiat that means wearing a hat, whose phraseology has always been sort of racist in tone, is sort of a racist act. I get that not all these people think themselves as racist. That doesn’t mean they are not propping up systemic racism in their political actions.

This is a point I tried to bring up in a prior thread about racism that got closed. There are levels. My brothers do not act overtly racist, but they do support policies that promote systemic discrimination from governments and corporations. That’s a real problem. I try not to call them racist, but their actions as racist. I admit it’s hard to make the distinction clear.

There was already racism before Trump and it will continue after he leaves. My point was not that Trump is not a douche, he is. My point was on the huge exaggerations going on. I mean, in this very thread Trump supporters were compared to the KKK on several occasions. But they make up over 40% of Americans. Are they all as bad as the KKK? Really?

And what about all this talk of minorities being in existential danger or whatever? Nobody is being lynched or attached by mobs wearing MAGA hats, are they?

I mean, except of course for Jussie Smollett...

 

[luiz]

You don't suddenly invalidate comparisons to the Nazi Party by claiming there are no death camps in the US. That is not the sole definition of what makes something analogous to the Nazi Party. If that's the kind of argument you're running with, you're going to get a lot of pushback.

Well I think any comparison of Trump or Trumpists with the Nazi party are at best ridiculously ignorant, at worse quite offensive for those who actually dealt with Nazi Terror. I mean when asked about what exactly became concretely worse for minorities in the US under Trump people here mentioned a ban on Trans pelle serving in the military... Do you really think that's even remotely comparable to what happened to minorities in Nazi Germany, even before the Final Solution?

Sense of the ridiculous, please!

 

[El_Machinae]

Okay, you might be more impressed with the pardoning of a sheriff who was convicted of (refusing to stop) racial profiling. This sheriff is famous for mistreating detainees.

Additionally, remember that there's a difference between what Trump tries to institute and what the bureaucracy fails to do.

But yeah, I do notice it's not really 'like' Nazis, given how completely evil Nazis quickly spiraled into becoming.

What is inherently racist (even if only "sort of") about "Make America Great Again"? I mean, I get the argument that the current usage of the phrase, the hats etc, could be considered racist by association, but you're saying the words themselves are racist? Why? Is it just the "again" part that makes it so? Seems a bit of a stretch.

Well "again" is hearkening back to a different time. It's only racist when you realize what they're referring to.

I mean, the statement "those people are really dumb" isn't a racist statement by itself. It requires knowing who I am pointing at.

 

[Estebonrober]

What is inherently racist (even if only "sort of") about "Make America Great Again"? I mean, I get the argument that the current usage of the phrase, the hats etc, could be considered racist by association, but you're saying the words themselves are racist? Why? Is it just the "again" part that makes it so? Seems a bit of a stretch.

yes it’s usage by both Reagan and Clinton indicates eras in which minorities had no voice. Thus it is sort of racist on initial premise.

 

[Estebonrober]

Well I think any comparison of Trump or Trumpists with the Nazi party are at best ridiculously ignorant, at worse quite offensive for those who actually dealt with Nazi Terror. I mean when asked about what exactly became concretely worse for minorities in the US under Trump people here mentioned a ban on Trans pelle serving in the military... Do you really think that's even remotely comparable to what happened to minorities in Nazi Germany, even before the Final Solution?

Sense of the ridiculous, please!

two things to point out here

first the nazi part got a lot of their race ideas from the USA

second trump administration officials have seriously indicated that putting immigrants on trains as a way to scare them as a legit tactic

so I’m not calling them all nazis I’m just saying they are ignorantly supporting people who like nazis.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

yes it’s usage by both Reagan and Clinton indicates eras in which minorities had no voice. Thus it is sort of racist on initial premise.

Okay, so it's basically racist to ever refer to any point in the past as being good in any way then.

Kind of silly really. Sometimes some things just were better in the past, or worked better. This doesn't mean the entirety of everything was better at that point, or any attempt to hark back to those good things is a call to literally revert all of society to exactly how it was at that time. It's no more reasonable to just assume they're advocating for racial segregation (or whatever) than it is to assume they want to be ignorant about the existence of exoplanets, or that they want to live in a society where they are unable to get a kidney transplant.

 

[luiz]

two things to point out here

first the nazi part got a lot of their race ideas from the USA

second trump administration officials have seriously indicated that putting immigrants on trains as a way to scare them as a legit tactic

so I’m not calling them all nazis I’m just saying they are ignorantly supporting people who like nazis.

Yes a lot of racist theory came and continues to come from the US. That doesn't make the US government Nazi.
Also, putting illegal immigrants in trains to scare them is a douche move but it has nothing to do with putting people in trains to take them to extermination camps. I mean, the problem in that case was not really the trains...

 

[luiz]

Okay, you might be more impressed with the pardoning of a sheriff who was convicted of (refusing to stop) racial profiling. This sheriff is famous for mistreating detainees.

Additionally, remember that there's a difference between what Trump tries to institute and what the bureaucracy fails to do.

But yeah, I do notice it's not really 'like' Nazis, given how completely evil Nazis quickly spiraled into becoming.

Again, racial profiling by law enforcement is not really comparable in any way to the intensity and violence of the persecution that minorities were subject to in Nazi Germany from day one.

The Nazis didn't spiral into evil, they were evil far before they seized power. I mean, Hitler's intentions are laid out pretty clearly on the Mein Kempf. As someone once remarked, Hitler never lied, except when he gave his word he was speaking the truth.

 

[Gorbles]

Again, racial profiling by law enforcement is not really comparable in any way to the intensity and violence of the persecution that minorities were subject to in Nazi Germany from day one.

The Nazis didn't spiral into evil, they were evil far before they seized power. I mean, Hitler's intentions are laid out pretty clearly on the Mein Kempf. As someone once remarked, Hitler never lied, except when he gave his word he was speaking the truth.

* gestures wildly at the persecuted history of Native Americans *
* gestures wildly at the persecuted history of African Americans *
* gestures wildly at the history of slavery in the US and how its effects were felt all the way through the 1900s *

I mean, the US is built on some pretty nasty history. A fair amount of it could be argued to be recent history. A lot of countries could be argued to be similar, sure, and not all countries combine the specific blends of racial hatred the Third Reich did. But, again, you don't have to match something 100% to be compared to it. Instead of saying "X isn't like Y" based on some kind of personal definition of severity, I'd recommend arguing against the fact that the comparisons exist at all - if this is something you feel should be argued (I don't want to force you into an argument you don't want to make).

It's a common argument, that because something wasn't specifically as bad as the worst things the Nazis did, that therefore comparisons are overblown. But that doesn't make it a valid argument, because even as hate-filled as the Nazi Party was, it didn't lead with death camps in 1923. It took time. We should be cautious of any parallels people make - that's the whole point in trying to not repeat history. We shouldn't wait until there are extermination camps - by then it's too late!

 

[Estebonrober]

Okay, so it's basically racist to ever refer to any point in the past as being good in any way then.

Kind of silly really. Sometimes some things just were better in the past, or worked better. This doesn't mean the entirety of everything was better at that point, or any attempt to hark back to those good things is a call to literally revert all of society to exactly how it was at that time. It's no more reasonable to just assume they're advocating for racial segregation (or whatever) than it is to assume they want to be ignorant about the existence of exoplanets, or that they want to live in a society where they are unable to get a kidney transplant.

Well then educate yourselves about the implications. I wouldn’t go around wearing a Woodrow Wilson t shirt considering his stances on race.

And again it’s important the rhetoric used by trump coming into this. He wasn’t saying let’s go back to a time where the rich paid their share. He was saying let’s make America great again by deporting millions and ramping up the police state in urban areas. Also stop Muslims everywhere. So I mean the rhetoric was racist too.

 

[Estebonrober]

Yes a lot of racist theory came and continues to come from the US. That doesn't make the US government Nazi.
Also, putting illegal immigrants in trains to scare them is a douche move but it has nothing to do with putting people in trains to take them to extermination camps. I mean, the problem in that case was not really the trains...

The problem in that case is intentionally using Nazi symbols to provoke fear in your own populace. WTH

 

[luiz]

* gestures wildly at the persecuted history of Native Americans *
* gestures wildly at the persecuted history of African Americans *
* gestures wildly at the history of slavery in the US and how its effects were felt all the way through the 1900s *

I mean, the US is built on some pretty nasty history. A fair amount of it could be argued to be recent history. A lot of countries could be argued to be similar, sure, and not all countries combine the specific blends of racial hatred the Third Reich did. But, again, you don't have to match something 100% to be compared to it. Instead of saying "X isn't like Y" based on some kind of personal definition of severity, I'd recommend arguing against the fact that the comparisons exist at all - if this is something you feel should be argued (I don't want to force you into an argument you don't want to make).

It's a common argument, that because something wasn't specifically as bad as the worst things the Nazis did, that therefore comparisons are overblown. But that doesn't make it a valid argument, because even as hate-filled as the Nazi Party was, it didn't lead with death camps in 1923. It took time. We should be cautious of any parallels people make - that's the whole point in trying to not repeat history. We shouldn't wait until there are extermination camps - by then it's too late!

Well yeah if we look at US history, minorities have it pretty good under Trump, no?
Of course we can and should criticize his policies that we perceive to be wrong. We might even draw parallels to Nazi policy, when this is justified (and it usually isn't).

But the climate of mutual hatred and hysteria prevalent in the US is not constructive. It's not good for anyone, minorities included. Anyone who believes the over 40% of Americans who support Trump are as bad as KKK members is a fool, and an unhelpful fool at that.

 

[Estebonrober]

I agree that’s it’s unhelpful. It’s also really really hard to get people to understand the argument being made. It’s not that you in particular are a bigot. It’s that your support of certain people or policies support systemic bigotry. How do you parse that reality without the person you are trying to explain to feel like you are calling them a bigot?

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Well then educate yourselves about the implications. I wouldn’t go around wearing a Woodrow Wilson t shirt considering his stances on race.

And again it’s important the rhetoric used by trump coming into this. He wasn’t saying let’s go back to a time where the rich paid their share. He was saying let’s make America great again by deporting millions and ramping up the police state in urban areas. Also stop Muslims everywhere. So I mean the rhetoric was racist too.

Hmm. Maybe "educate yourself" about what my initial question was, which was about the words themselves being inherently racist, separate to the question about whether or not they are in the context of big red Trump hats.

 

[luiz]

The problem in that case is intentionally using Nazi symbols to provoke fear in your own populace. WTH

I don't think the Central American illegal immigrants who get detained in the US would draw many parallels to Nazi death camps if put on trains, so if that's the objective, it's quite stupid. Doesn't make much sense.