What does a MAGA hat stand for?

[Cloud_Strife]

I'm not posting in an attempt to change Rah's mind what I'm trying to do is to get them to understand that for some of us, a vote for ANY gop candidate, regardless of the reasons or motivation behind it, can be seen as a hostile act and one that negatively impacts a larger swathe of the country then he might be comfortable admitting.

When the individual GOP members evolve something resembling a spine I might hold back my criticism, but currently and historically they vote consistantly to attack minorities.

 

[Berzerker]

We spent a few years leading up to Trump bombing the hell out of people and you think voters should have applauded the war criminals by giving them another 4 years? We'd still be arming ISIS if Trump lost in 2016. ISIS, the people who cut off heads and throw gay people from roofs. Thats who we tried to put in power in Syria.

 

[Gorbles]

I find it particularly hilarious, Berzerker, that you oppose any military action Obama has done with reasons like "it arms ISIS" when you spent half a thread justifying the bombing of a dude who fought ISIS. You don't like it because Obama did it, that's all there is to it. It's completely unrelated to the MAGA hat, except for the fact that for some reason you think Trump is better.

I'm not posting in an attempt to change Rah's mind what I'm trying to do is to get them to understand that for some of us, a vote for ANY gop candidate, regardless of the reasons or motivation behind it, can be seen as a hostile act and one that negatively impacts a larger swathe of the country then he might be comfortable admitting.

When the individual GOP members evolve something resembling a spine I might hold back my criticism, but currently and historically they vote consistantly to attack minorities.

This is the crux of the issue. All Cloud is doing is pointing out that enabling Republican candidates, in most fields, relates to enabling the party at some level of organisation (state, federal, w/e). She cannot trust this, because the party has bigoted values, and very publicly and specifically transphobic values, baked into the platform.

It's similar to the MAGA hat, you see. Maybe not everybody who wears it is overtly racist, and maybe of those people that aren't racist, they don't do enough introspection to realise that a lot of people who wear it are. But that's a lot of maybes, and it's far simpler to assume that you can't trust someone wearing it. The risk of being harmed is far greater than the possible benevolence of inaction (on behalf of the person wearing the hat). If ninety-nine purple flowers with white rims were poisonous to the touch, I wouldn't be rushing to pick up the hundredth, right? So when we get these anecdotal huffs of "well you just don't understand my life / you're hating blindly", it's because you don't understand the threat Cloud lives her life in. If you cannot understand the basic principle of "it's better to be safe than sorry", and instead take it personally every time she expresses her fear and disdain for Republican party politics, that's on you.

To relate this to something personally, I'm a Labour voter in the UK. Corbyn has had a lot of criticism over antisemitism, and I have scoured (not even an understatement) the Web to inform my personal beliefs on that criticism, and my subsequent votes for the party. I still vote Labour. I believe a lot of the accusations levelled at Corbyn are inaccurate at best, and bad-faith at worst. But I do not blame my Jewish friends for not voting Labour. I'll laugh at them when then joke about "lefties" or "the woke mob", but I respect the threat any antisemitism (which exists in Labour as a party, absolutely) poses to any Jewish community - particularly in 2019 and 2020 when these kinds of beliefs are (once again) on the rise. That's why I argue with @rah, and whoever else so much, on topics like this. Because these folks don't do that. They take it as a personal attack that someone is choosing their own safety above trusting a (relative or even complete) stranger on the Internet. And heck, I'm talking about RL friends here. They know me. We're still friends. But they still don't want to take that chance, and I don't want to force them.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

We spent a few years leading up to Trump bombing the hell out of people and you think voters should have applauded the war criminals by giving them another 4 years? We'd still be arming ISIS if Trump lost in 2016. ISIS, the people who cut off heads and throw gay people from roofs. Thats who we tried to put in power in Syria.

No, instead you just support people who are okay with legally discriminating against gay people, forcing them into electro-shock therapy and branding them as deviants, you might not be supporting those that are violent towards gays but the end result is that they're still discriminated against.

 

[Berzerker]

I find it particularly hilarious, Berzerker, that you oppose any military action Obama has done with reasons like "it arms ISIS" when you spent half a thread justifying the bombing of a dude who fought ISIS. You don't like it because Obama did it, that's all there is to it. It's completely unrelated to the MAGA hat, except for the fact that for some reason you think Trump is better.

So arming ISIS aint a deal breaker? Thats the lesser evil we should have chosen? The Iranian general was a justifiable target, he spent many years killing people including US soldiers. But I devoted maybe 2-3 posts making that argument, not half a thread. And I said we shouldn't have done it if he was there to talk, and if not, I recommended sending a message by firing a shot across his bow.

I didn't oppose Obama for killing bin Laden or blame him for wars he inherited and I was glad when he pulled us out of Iraq in 2011. Unfortunately he started arming terrorists in Syria so we had another excuse to go right back in with Iraq's blessing.

Overthrowing Libya and pouring weapons into Syria to fuel a civil war was immoral and the results disastrous. Trump is better than Hillary, just count the bodies they've left in their wake. And it aint unrelated, if you wanna know what MAGA stands for, it includes ending these foreign wars. Is that racist? Can someone wear the hat because they opposed the warmonger nominated by the Democrats?

 

[Camikaze]

It's important to distinguish between what a symbol stands for, and how the adoption of a symbol reflects on those who are adopting it. Even taking a symbol at its worst, the adoption of that symbol may be just as consistent with ignorance as it is with endorsement. Active hostility can be understandable, but ignorance is hardly an excuse. But hostility being understandable doesn't make it universally well-directed. The fact that someone ought to know better, does not change that they may in fact not know better.

There is also a distinction between agreeing with a racist policy due to overt racism, and agreeing with a racist policy without conscious awareness of its racism. A similar principle may apply, but the practical significance of the distinction may be less important, if the unconscious supporter is confronted with the element of racism and simply refuses to care about it. They may well insist that they do not embrace the racism inherent in the policy, but the outcome's the same either way.

 

[Estebonrober]

I must be on ignore by @rah which is kind of sad.

The hat and MAGA itself is racist because MAGA was always racist even when Reagan and Clinton did, but Trump made it far more overt with his campaign rhetoric and then doubled down on it at his inauguration speech. From that moment on the hat has represented racism to anyone who knows WTH they are listening to when he and his administration talks.

 

[Berzerker]

No, instead you just support people who are okay with legally discriminating against gay people, forcing them into electro-shock therapy and branding them as deviants, you might not be supporting those that are violent towards gays but the end result is that they're still discriminated against.

And you supported war criminals... I vote libertarian, the LP platform endorsed gay marriage back in the 70s decades before the Democrats decided it was safe. I suspect you supported people opposed to gay marriage. It is true libertarians generally believe in the freedom to discriminate, but not because they're okay with discrimination that cant be justified. Forcing people into electro-shock therapy is decidedly anti-libertarian along with slavery, Jim Crow, drug wars and invading other countries. Now which party supported all five?

The hat and MAGA itself is racist because MAGA was always racist even when Reagan and Clinton did, but Trump made it far more overt with his campaign rhetoric and then doubled down on it at his inauguration speech. From that moment on the hat has represented racism to anyone who knows WTH they are listening to when he and his administration talks.

Would a racist push the first step act thru Congress?

 

[Manfred Belheim]

"Make America Great Again" I believe.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Red on the outside, dead on the inside.

Is this about Valka's trees?

Moderator Action: Let's not bring in things from other threads, k? --LM

 

[luiz]

*DISCLAIMER* I'm not a Trumpist, use the Search function and see I really hoped Hilary would win, just like I hope Biden or one of the other centrist Democrats will win this time. I'm also a Latin American, a Hispanic, so according to current standards I'm a poor oppressed minority and must be heard

But my point: there is, way, way too much hysteria about Trump and his supporters. Just read this thread : they have been repeatedly and non-ironically compared to the Nazis and the KKK. But there are no death camps or mass lynchings in the US. When asked concretely how's its worse now for minorities, someone said Trump is banning trans people in the military and rolling back some Healthcare stuff. This sucks indeed, but does not make it comparable to Nazi Germany. In the vast majority of countries in the world trans cannot serve in the military, and the vast majority of countries are not ruled by Nazis or the KKK. People mention his heavy-handed approach towards illegal immigrants, but again, not really comparable to the Third Reich is it. Again, in most countries illegal immigrants can expect a pretty rough time, often far worse than in the US. And this doesn't make most of the world Nazi country.

People, including celebrities and journalists, talk without irony of being part of the Resistance, as if they were risking their lives and doing something heroic like the WW2 Résistants of occupied Europe. But they aren't, they just sound ridiculous and and self-aggrandizing.

Trump won roughly half the votes and continues to be supported by over 40% of Americans. The US cannot function if half the country believes the other half to be Nazis and hates them accordingly.

 

[rah]

Did you realize though that by talking about local politics in a conversation where i think it was at least reasonably obvious that national and state level politics were the primary topic you sort of invited the clash that you got?

I only mentioned it because I was getting demonized for voting for a republican. It's common knowledge here that I haven't done it on the federal level.
But despite that, I don't pass the purity test here so I must be demonized so people can feel ok about their dislike.
You people demonize republicans because they hate anybody that is slightly different. Yet have no problem returning the favor so are you really any different.
Moderates really have no place any more because both sides hate them. But guess what, we're the ones that determine elections,
I'm disappointed by the those here that I respected. And will take a break from political discussions here because discussions are not really possible.
I miss the days when they were, where you could disagree but still respect.

 

[luiz]

*DISCLAIMER* I'm not a Trumpist, use the Search function and see I really hoped Hilary would win, just like I hope Biden or one of the other centrist Democrats will win this time. I'm also a Latin American, a Hispanic, so according to current standards I'm a poor oppressed minority and must be heard

But my point: there is, way, way too much hysteria about Trump and his supporters. Just read this thread : they have been repeatedly and non-ironically compared to the Nazis and the KKK. But there are no death camps or mass lynchings in the US. When asked concretely how's its worse now for minorities, someone said Trump is banning trans people in the military and rolling back some Healthcare stuff. This sucks indeed, but does not make it comparable to Nazi Germany. In the vast majority of countries in the world trans cannot serve in the military, and the vast majority of countries are not ruled by Nazis or the KKK. People mention his heavy-handed approach towards illegal immigrants, but again, not really comparable to the Third Reich is it. Again, in most countries illegal immigrants can expect a pretty rough time, often far worse than in the US. And this doesn't make most of the world Nazi country.

People, including celebrities and journalists, talk without irony of being part of the Resistance, as if they were risking their lives and doing something heroic like the WW2 Résistants of occupied Europe. But they aren't, they just sound ridiculous and and self-aggrandizing.

Trump won roughly half the votes and continues to be supported by over 40% of Americans. The US cannot function if half the country believes the other half to be Nazis and hates them accordingly.

I will add that Republicans are equally guilty of hysteria and exaggeration. Non-negligent percentages of them and Republican commentators treated Obama as some communist extremist and utterly demonized him as an enemy of the American people. Now democrats are returning the favor in spades by treating pretty much all republicans as Nazis and enemies of mankind.

A lot of people in the US need to take a chill pill and rediscover the sense of the ridiculous.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

For the record, I vote Republican in local elections because no Democrat can make it onto the ballot.

That sucks man. I have been voting socialist in local elections, sometimes even in some state elections. But anything that touches on national politics is straight ticket Democrat for the time being.

On occasions I have voted for Super Mario and/or Bender Bending Rodriguez in council elections when someone doesn't run. My wife almost accidentally elected me once by writing in my name in one of those contests. I had to call and formally withdrawal from the coin toss.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Yet have no problem returning the favor so are you really any different.

Yeah bud, huge difference between hating on a political party in reaction to their naked oppression and people being racist. This is a silly comparison.

Edited for clarity

 

[EgonSpengler]

I will add that Republicans are equally guilty of hysteria and exaggeration. Non-negligent percentages of them and Republican commentators treated Obama as some communist extremist and utterly demonized him as an enemy of the American people. Now democrats are returning the favor in spades by treating pretty much all republicans as Nazis and enemies of mankind.

A lot of people in the US need to take a chill pill and rediscover the sense of the ridiculous.

Trump was one of the celebrity "birthers" long before he ran for the Republican nomination. It was John McCain who tried to gently correct one of his constituents who repeated the claim that then-candidate Obama was Muslim. (Although let's not give McCain too much credit, as his reply to the assertion about Obama's religion was something like, "No ma'am, he's a good man", as though being Muslim and a good person were mutually-exclusive. McCain's also the guy who sang "Bomb Iran" to the tune of "Barbara Ann." This is who passes for a 'moderate' Republican in the 21st Century. Anyway, such a 'moderate' Republican as McCain has since been vigorously attacked by Trump. Even after he died. Trump who, iirc, dodged serving in the Vietnam War with 'bone spurs.')

 

[Timsup2nothin]

That sucks man. I have been voting socialist in local elections, sometimes even in some state elections. But anything that touches on national politics is straight ticket Democrat for the time being.

The point is that anyone here who wants to be involved joins the local Republican party so they have a shot. You can tell the difference when you talk to them. This guy wants to get potholes fixed and otherwise get some stuff done, and even though he won't come out and say it he probably votes Democrat. The other guy talks a decent game on local issues, but you can tell he has "bigger things" in mind like a state assembly run. He's actually a Republican. So, it's pretty easy to decide who to vote for.

 

[luiz]

Trump was one of the celebrity "birthers" long before he ran for the Republican nomination. It was John McCain who tried to gently correct one of his constituents who repeated the claim that then-candidate Obama was Muslim. (Although let's not give McCain too much credit, as his reply to the assertion about Obama's religion was something like, "No ma'am, he's a good man", as though being Muslim and a good person were mutually-exclusive. McCain's also the guy who sang "Bomb Iran" to the tune of "Barbara Ann." This is who passes for a 'moderate' Republican in the 21st Century. Anyway, such a 'moderate' Republican as McCain has since been vigorously attacked by Trump. Even after he died. Trump who, iirc, dodged serving in the Vietnam War with 'bone spurs.')

Trump is a douche and no doubt so are many of his supporters. Others might not be utter douches but still believe in all kinds of nonsense. That doesn't make them equal to Nazis, the KKK, or whatever. That doesn't make Trump critics members of some heroic "Resistence Movement". Trump does not pose an "existential threat" to minorities in the US, indeed minorities in the US continue to grow in number and prosperity following pretty much the exact same pattern as before Trump.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

The point is that anyone here who wants to be involved joins the local Republican party so they have a shot. You can tell the difference when you talk to them. This guy wants to get potholes fixed and otherwise get some stuff done, and even though he won't come out and say it he probably votes Democrat. The other guy talks a decent game on local issues, but you can tell he has "bigger things" in mind like a state assembly run. He's actually a Republican. So, it's pretty easy to decide who to vote for.

I have never met anyone running for local government. :-(

I do not go to council meetings though. I follow what's going on but I don't participate like I should. Resistbot goes down to the state level but not the city, unfortunately. I use that a lot to communicate my wishes at the state and federal level.

 

[civvver]

It's not her identity, it's her life. What the hell is your problem?

Identity, life, that's not the same thing?

My point is I don't have any issue with cloudstrife hating the republican party. But to assume the worst about every republican voter is kind of lame and a copout.

It'd be like if I went around calling every person with an obama-biden bumper sticker baby murderers. II'll always be against abortion, but I don't vote on that one issue or assume everyone who supports a party in favor of abortion is also in favor of abortion. There are many reasons to vote for democrats even if you oppose abortion. I vote for democrats both for congress and president. I also vote for republicans some times.