What if your race is the dumbest of them all?

[yung.carl.jung]

Also, blacks in Europe also have an IQ around 85, and European countries generally have a good safety net and public healthcare.

This sounds terribly low, what data are you basing this on?..

It probably goes without saying, but I dont accept Jensen, Rushton, Lynn, Vanhanen or the last member of the gang whose name I sadly forgot as a credible source. I already searched google scholar and found nada :&

Here is a study comparing pupils in England. Head to page 10 and it is categorized by racial background. Blacks score really well, not top of the line but solid average. "Mixed White and African" (I already hate this) score above average in almost all categories.

The test is based on GCSE (grades) and CAT (cognitive ability testing). They correlate about 70% with g (general intelligence), while IQ has a correlation of something above 80% iirc.

https://lesacreduprintemps19.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/glassessment.pdf

 

[Lexicus]

the hereditarian position.

It's funny because you go to all this trouble to say that of course your position is just acknowledging reality or whatever, that it should be uncontroversial, but then you will use pathetic euphemisms like this to refer to your own racist, genetic-determinist garbage.

 

[Hehehe]

This sounds terribly low, what data are you basing this on?..

It probably goes without saying, but I dont accept Jensen, Rushton, Lynn, Vanhanen or the last member of the gang whose name I sadly forgot as a credible source. I already searched google scholar and found nada :&

Here is a study comparing pupils in England. Head to page 10 and it is categorized by racial background. Blacks score really well, not top of the line but solid average. "Mixed White and African" (I already hate this) score above average in almost all categories.

The test is based on GCSE (grades) and CAT (cognitive ability testing). They correlate about 70% with g (general intelligence), while IQ has a correlation of something above 80% iirc.

https://lesacreduprintemps19.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/glassessment.pdf

Source is Lynn. It seems highly cavalier of you to outright dismiss him as a source, especially when he’s one of the few people doing such tests. If you don’t trust Lynn, then please, by all means, do have someone ”reliable” do the IQ tests. As for Lynn’s numbers, there is no reason to doubt them. They are perfectly in line with IQ data from the US and with studies done by Nijenhuis on the Dutch Antillean population.

As for GCSE, that data doesn’t really mean anything. You’d still need to show that GCSE correlates with IQ. And even if that were true, there are a huge number of things that could influence those results. Is it a representative sample? If there has been some narrowing of the gap (the gap exists even in your data, even if it is smaller), is that because black scores are doing well or because whites are doing poorly? Furthermore, we already know that the heritability of IQ is low for children, but high for adults, which is why I would prefer adult samples.

It's funny because you go to all this trouble to say that of course your position is just acknowledging reality or whatever, that it should be uncontroversial, but then you will use pathetic euphemisms like this to refer to your own racist, genetic-determinist garbage.

I realize that accepting facts must be difficult for you, but participation in this thread is purely voluntary.

 

[Traitorfish]

"I'm not racist, it's just deeply, painfully important to me that black people are stupid."

 

[Hrothbern]

They are perfectly in line with IQ data from the US and with studies done by Nijenhuis on the Dutch Antillean population

Here an article in Dutch showing that his Dutch colleagues do not agree with Nijenhuis and argue that the difference is cultural, also because children of these immigrants score much higher. Main cause assumed by these Dutch colleagues is a better speaking and understanding of Dutch. To consider is that immigrants from the Antilles speak a mix of Dutch, English and Papiaments and typical not good enough Dutch in which the tests were taken
Also: it is normal practice for teachers at primary schools in the Netherlands, when they have to decide based on the socalled CITO test to which level secondary school a child goes, that they add a rule of thumb number to the CITO test to make their decision to adjust for the language handicap and get a better estimate for the education potential. No positive discrimination but just down to earth conventional wisdom of the teachers on the ground.

https://www.volkskrant.nl/archief/niet-dommer-maar-minder-intelligent~a606341/

 

[Berzerker]

Here below another article that also sees a lower genetic diversity as important for their extinction.
I add the article because it also mentions the disease Herpes Simplex as possible tipping cause.
Conventional opinion on Herpes is that it was picked up from apes and could spread over Homo Sapiens after our population density grew with the agricultural revolution. But there is really no proof for that. So we could easily have picked up Herpes much earlier than 10,000 years ago, because our social habit to cover big distances for our mates, generating our genetic diversity, would cover the speading of the virus.
From there our contacts with the Neandertaler, infecting them tribe for tribe, could have been too much, them having a less diverse gene pool to survive.
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20160412-what-really-happened-when-we-met-neanderthals

BTW in that theverge article a scientists suggests that Homo Sapiens was as hunter gather 40k years ago more succesful because of dogs.
To my knowledge dogs started to exist around 13k years ago.

They probably meant wolves, but a recent South Park episode has Randy Marsh going to DNAandMe for his ancestry, Randy wants to have oppressed blood in him so he can join the victim parade judging by the plot. He goes to great lengths to appear part native american but instead the test showed 2.8% Neanderthal, Randy is delighted to learn he can be outraged at the extinction of his people.

 

[caketastydelish]

Have their been any IQ tests between different groups that haven't been done by the white supremacist, or otherwise a trustworthy source?

 

[tuckerkao]

Egypt had the earliest advanced civilization knowledge and they are much more behind now.

 

[Berzerker]

I'm not sure IQ tests can be considered valid... How do you make one that isn't biased?

 

[bernie14]

Have their been any IQ tests between different groups that haven't been done by the white supremacist, or otherwise a trustworthy source?

it depends on how you define "IQ", "white supremacist" and "trustworthy"

EDIT and of course, "groups"

 

[caketastydelish]

An IQ test that doesn't have an agenda to make one ethnic group smarter than another.

 

[Hehehe]

"I'm not racist, it's just deeply, painfully important to me that black people are stupid."

The existence of IQ gaps is a well established finding. We're only talking about the causes here.

If you want, we can also talk about the IQ gap between Ashkenazi Jews and non-Jewish whites for example.

Here an article in Dutch showing that his Dutch colleagues do not agree with Nijenhuis and argue that the difference is cultural, also because children of these immigrants score much higher. Main cause assumed by these Dutch colleagues is a better speaking and understanding of Dutch. To consider is that immigrants from the Antilles speak a mix of Dutch, English and Papiaments and typical not good enough Dutch in which the tests were taken
Also: it is normal practice for teachers at primary schools in the Netherlands, when they have to decide based on the socalled CITO test to which level secondary school a child goes, that they add a rule of thumb number to the CITO test to make their decision to adjust for the language handicap and get a better estimate for the education potential. No positive discrimination but just down to earth conventional wisdom of the teachers on the ground.

https://www.volkskrant.nl/archief/niet-dommer-maar-minder-intelligent~a606341/

Please, tell me then, what kind of IQ figures did Nijenhuis' colleagues get then? I realize that Nijenhuis' data might not be perfect, but we don't have much else to go on.

Have their been any IQ tests between different groups that haven't been done by the white supremacist, or otherwise a trustworthy source?

No, because anyone who performs IQ tests is by definition a "white supremacist".

But on a more serious note, data from European IQ tests is a bit scarce. I wonder why they wouldn't want to make such tests, it's almost like they're afraid they'd get the wrong kinds of results. There is, however, a great deal of data from the US. Up to 6 million samples, from various sources, like educational institutions, businesses and the military. The fact that IQ gaps exist is pretty uncontroversial, even among the most diehard egalitarian researchers.

Rushton & Jensen (2005) wrote that, in the United States, self-identified blacks and whites have been the subjects of the greatest number of studies. They stated that the black-white IQ difference is about 15 to 18 points or 1 to 1.1 standard deviations (SDs), which implies that between 11 and 16 percent of the black population have an IQ above 100 (the general population median). According to Arthur Jensen and J. Philippe Rushton the black-white IQ difference is largest on those components of IQ tests that are claimed best to represent the general intelligence factor g.[46] The 1996 APA report "Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns" and the 1994 editorial statement "Mainstream Science on Intelligence" gave more or less similar estimates.[47][48] Roth et al. (2001), in a review of the results of a total of 6,246,729 participants on other tests of cognitive ability or aptitude, found a difference in mean IQ scores between blacks and whites of 1.1 SD. Consistent results were found for college and university application tests such as the Scholastic Aptitude Test (N = 2.4 million) and Graduate Record Examination (N = 2.3 million), as well as for tests of job applicants in corporate sections (N = 0.5 million) and in the military (N = 0.4 million).[49]

 

[bernie14]

An IQ test that doesn't have an agenda to make one ethnic group smarter than another.

There are hundreds of iq tests but i don't think that any or at least most tests are formulated with that agenda in mind....iirc, @Lemon Merchant recently gave a good description, these tests are mainly to help pinpoint children with impairments...it is a tool and as such, can be used for much wankery in the hands of some. ....similar to skull/bone measurements.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Have their been any IQ tests between different groups that haven't been done by the white supremacist, or otherwise a trustworthy source?

Yes there are, albeit very few-

Egypt had the earliest advanced civilization knowledge and they are much more behind now.

No and no. As I concluded the map is BS and there were a few more known (and probably a few unknown) civilizations before Egypt.. Like Sumer, possibly the Indus Valley Civilization and wahtever happened at Göbekli Tepke

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Source is Lynn. It seems highly cavalier of you to outright dismiss him as a source, especially when he’s one of the few people doing such tests. If you don’t trust Lynn, then please, by all means, do have someone ”reliable” do the IQ tests. As for Lynn’s numbers, there is no reason to doubt them. They are perfectly in line with IQ data from the US and with studies done by Nijenhuis on the Dutch Antillean population.

As for GCSE, that data doesn’t really mean anything. You’d still need to show that GCSE correlates with IQ. And even if that were true, there are a huge number of things that could influence those results. Is it a representative sample? If there has been some narrowing of the gap (the gap exists even in your data, even if it is smaller), is that because black scores are doing well or because whites are doing poorly? Furthermore, we already know that the heritability of IQ is low for children, but high for adults, which is why I would prefer adult samples.



I realize that accepting facts must be difficult for you, but participation in this thread is purely voluntary.

Why would I trust a scientist who willingly

a) Uses more than 70 year old research data (without accounting for the Flynn effect..) to represent an entire country
b) Purposefully manipulates sampling and methodology to lower the general African IQ on his map
c) Directly receives his paycheck from white supremacists

As for Lynn’s numbers, there is no reason to doubt them. They are perfectly in line with IQ data from the US and with studies done by Nijenhuis on the Dutch Antillean population.

That is just perfect now, innit? Well go ahead and post that data, as has been requested. You have it on hand, right? Should only take a few seconds

You’d still need to show that GCSE correlates with IQ.

Did you even read my post? It correlates with g, which is a much better predictor of intelligence than IQ. But here, see, GCSE also highly correlates with IQ, wow!

Achievement test scores are more highly correlated with IQ than school grades. This may be because grades are more influenced by the teacher's idiosyncratic perceptions of the student.[62] In a longitudinal English study, g scores measured at age 11 correlated with all the 25 subject tests of the national GCSE examination taken at age 16. The correlations ranged from .77 for the mathematics test to .42 for the art test. The correlation between g and a general educational factor computed from the GCSE tests was .81.[63] (Brody, 2016)

 

[Kyriakos]

While Hehehe is free to live in his own world where Lynn and the finnish sociology clown are somehow respected 'scientists', i am not seeing how this discussion isn't going in a vicious circle...
A more modest, and common, 'pride by proxy' is when someone tries to ridiculously tie oneself to the country they live in, as if citizenX=country. But the even more spurious - and just as ludicrous- appeal to some pride by proxy due to lame dna studies is far worse imo. In the end of the day, one is what they are. No study is going to add iq points to anyone (unless they take it long enough ^^ ).

 

[Hehehe]

Why would I trust a scientist who willingly

a) Uses more than 70 year old research data (without accounting for the Flynn effect..) to represent an entire country
b) Purposefully manipulates sampling and methodology to lower the general African IQ on his map
c) Directly receives his paycheck from white supremacists

You should trust Lynn because for all intents and purposes, he is your god. His numbers are the golden standard. If you don't trust them, then please, by all means, have someone "more reliable" do the research. And, again, I repeat, Lynn's numbers are in line with other studies. No amount of poisoning the well is going to change that.

That is just perfect now, innit? Well go ahead and post that data, as has been requested. You have it on hand, right? Should only take a few seconds

Of course. Here you go.

Did you even read my post? It correlates with g, which is a much better predictor of intelligence than IQ. But here, see, GCSE also highly correlates with IQ, wow!

Yes, I read it. You made a claim, I asked you to back that claim up.

Achievement test scores are more highly correlated with IQ than school grades. This may be because grades are more influenced by the teacher's idiosyncratic perceptions of the student.[62] In a longitudinal English study, g scores measured at age 11 correlated with all the 25 subject tests of the national GCSE examination taken at age 16. The correlations ranged from .77 for the mathematics test to .42 for the art test. The correlation between g and a general educational factor computed from the GCSE tests was .81.[63] (Brody, 2016)

Fair enough. You can now move on to addressing the rest of my critique.

While Hehehe is free to live in his own world where Lynn and the finnish sociology clown are somehow respected 'scientists', i am not seeing how this discussion isn't going in a vicious circle...
A more modest, and common, 'pride by proxy' is when someone tries to ridiculously tie oneself to the country they live in, as if citizenX=country. But the even more spurious - and just as ludicrous- appeal to some pride by proxy due to lame dna studies is far worse imo. In the end of the day, one is what they are. No study is going to add iq points to anyone (unless they take it long enough ^^ ).

What are you even going on about? Do you seriously have nothing of value to add to this discussion?

 

[Senethro]

But on a more serious note, data from European IQ tests is a bit scarce. I wonder why they wouldn't want to make such tests, it's almost like they're afraid they'd get the wrong kinds of results. There is, however, a great deal of data from the US. Up to 6 million samples, from various sources, like educational institutions, businesses and the military. The fact that IQ gaps exist is pretty uncontroversial, even among the most diehard egalitarian researchers.

There are the wrong kinds of results and the wrong kinds of outcomes. Some American states were still sterilizing based on IQ test results as recently as the 1970s while Europe had a close call with and more actively rejected eugenics.

Much earlier in the thread there were some edgelord suggestions that scientists avoid this field because people would get "offended". Instead maybe they are aware of the potential misuse of their work. This thread has had some examples of people with agendas.

 

[Hrothbern]

Please, tell me then, what kind of IQ figures did Nijenhuis' colleagues get then? I realize that Nijenhuis' data might not be perfect, but we don't have much else to go on.

About 23% of our population are what we call allochtones: either direct immigrants or children with at least one parent that immigrated. 17% of non-western origin (mainly Surinam, Antilles, Indonesia, Turkey, Morocco) and 6% mainly from other European countries.
Nijenhuis was comfortable with just getting the IQ numbers, although he acknowledges that for example quality of language plays a clear decreasing role: that children with a bit lower measured IQ are not dumber.
Those colleagues are not interested in numbers that get a live on their own in tabloids and laymen discussions, did not write that discussed book for laymen, but in principle only for people professionally occupied with children, and primarily interested in getting good assessments of the "true" potential of children for the choice which level secondary school would be optimal (3 basic levels). Not the IQ snap shot, but the broader potential taking other factors into account that the classic IQ tests do not handle well.
So no numbers !
They just refute that the classic IQ test should be used 1:1 for allochtones and is not reliable, because of language an culture differences.
Backing the development and use of other methods to make the best secondary school choice, and what integration priorities, what critical factors are important to focus on to catch up and integrate better.

 

[Hehehe]

There are the wrong kinds of results and the wrong kinds of outcomes. Some American states were still sterilizing based on IQ test results as recently as the 1970s while Europe had a close call with and more actively rejected eugenics.

Much earlier in the thread there were some edgelord suggestions that scientists avoid this field because people would get "offended". Instead maybe they are aware of the potential misuse of their work. This thread has had some examples of people with agendas.

Fair enough, but we are so close to the point where we could actually fix these group differences by applying positive eugenics. Couple goes to get gene therapy, the kid comes out smarter for it (and we could also erase certain genetic diseases while we're at it). Everyone would be better off. But we can't do any of this unless we acknowledge the reality.

As for why some would avoid this field, the answer is rather obvious. The people who step out of line are subjected to intense harassment.

About 23% of our population are what we call allochtones: either direct immigrants or children with at least one parent that immigrated. 17% of non-western origin (mainly Surinam, Antilles, Indonesia, Turkey, Morocco) and 6% mainly from other European countries.
Nijenhuis was comfortable with just getting the IQ numbers, although he acknowledges that for example quality of language plays a clear decreasing role: that children with a bit lower measured IQ are not dumber.
Those colleagues are not interested in numbers that get a live on their own in tabloids and laymen discussions, did not write that discussed book for laymen, but in principle only for people professionally occupied with children, and primarily interested in getting good assessments of the "true" potential of children for the choice which level secondary school would be optimal (3 basic levels). Not the IQ snap shot, but the broader potential taking other factors into account that the classic IQ tests do not handle well.
So no numbers !
They just refute that the classic IQ test should be used 1:1 for allochtones and is not reliable, because of language an culture differences.
Backing the development and use of other methods to make the best secondary school choice, and what integration priorities, what critical factors are important to focus on to catch up and integrate better.

Yes, I realize that Nijenhuis' numbers are not perfect (there are some other criticism one could make besides the ones you pointed out). But again, that's all we have. As for the language argument and the likes, this is why I prefer to use US numbers to establish the gap. They are much better established findings, with much larger sample sizes and without any language bias.

As for any possible cultural bias, we can have that debate if you want. But for now, I would leave you with this. Experts don't think that they are biased. We can go into detail on this topic if you want.