What is a Nazi?

[stinkubus]

@raystuttgart @Lexicus

Keeping Germany from going socialist/communist is why the country was ALWAYS going to descend into hyper-militaristic fascism. If Germany goes, so does most/all of the continent. Think about the international effort that was put into getting Spain back under control. Germany was far more important to the various imperial systems of that time.

We don't need to assume that the party was specifically the Nazi party because the next fascist salvo can always be the one that breaks through. The movement that succeeded had international support, and if they had failed those people would not have just given up they would've set about winning the next round of elections.

Sort of like how the US isn't really out of the woods just because Trump is out of office, nor will we be regardless of the results of the next midterm or the Presidential election in 2024.

 

[raystuttgart]

Keeping Germany from going socialist/communist is why the country was ALWAYS going to descend into hyper-militaristic fascism.

But what makes you so certain that without Adolf Hitler tipping the public opinion into the direction of facism this "always" was going to turn out that way.
Another charismatic "rat catcher" of the communist side could have been just as successful tipping the side towards communism.

• Half of German - call them conservatives if you like - was totally afraid of communism, since they had heard how violently it had turned out in Russia.
• Half of the Germans - call them the socialist if you like - was hoping for a less violent path to socialism in Germany because they simply wanted change.

The Nazis simply achieved to combine both under 1 banner by falsly labeling themselves "National Socialists".
Almost nothing in their agenda really had anything to do with "socialism" as e.g. Karl Marx or Friedrich Engels, the German founders of socialism had defined it.

You seem to really underestimate the strength of the German socialist movement in these days.
There was a real chance - or threat, depending how you see it - in the late 20's and 30's that Germany could have turned socialist.

Lots of countries in Europe had strong socialist movements as well in these days. But of course they often also had strong facist movements.
Only once the super powers had divided Europe into "capitalist western Europe" and "communist eastern Europe" things were as clearly separated as we remember history.

By the way:

I kind of should know about such things about the history and politics of my own country.
It was discussed and taught elaborately for years during my school times and is still the top "fictonal scenarios" in German media.

----

Summary:

We never know what might have happened if Germany would have turned communist instead of fascist before WW2.
And there in fact was a chance that such a scenario could have happened. After all the philosophie of socialism originated in Germany.

In such a fictional world things might have come even worse and ended in a world wild proletarian revolution and later have caused WW3 ...
Or maybe we would be living in a European communist utopia today ... and maybe even the US would later have turned communists ...

 

[raystuttgart]

Sort of like how the US isn't really out of the woods just because Trump is out of office, ...

Yup, another good example of what I call a "rat catcher" who is making lots of empty promises just to lure discontent voters.
(Sorry if I offend people, but that is simply how I think about him.)

Currently it may seem that the world has more of the racist, isolationist, nationalist, ... type of rat catchers.
But look aroud in the world and you will also find lots of equalist, socialist, unificationist, ... types of rat catchers as well.

Whatever seems to lure voters, you will find some unscrupulous liar that will try to use it for his goals.
And you can be pretty sure that there will always also be enough discontent people that will fall for it.

----

So back to the topic "What are Nazis?"

Easy answer that may be more complicate though if you dig deeper:

• People that are discontent and angry and have fallen for right wing propaganda of charismatic scrupulous "rat catchers".
  
• People that are looking for some easy answer to their problems even if all logic speaks against it because believing is more important than facts.
  
• People that are looking for somebody to blame for their problems which is easier to accept or even admit one's own faults.
• People that will tyrannice helpless victims that can not fight back just because seeing others suffer makes them feel less helpless themselves.

 

[Fippy]

Without Hitler it'd have been highly unlikely that WW2 happens, i'm really surprised there are different opinions on that out there.
While he was completely insane, it cannot be denied how his charisma was essential for this disaster to happen.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Without Hitler it'd have been highly unlikely that WW2 happens, i'm really surprised there are different opinions on that out there.
While he was completely insane, it cannot be denied how his charisma was essential for this disaster to happen.

Ever played command and conquer red alert? In that game, someone traveled back in time and killed Hitler in the 1920's. As a result ww2 consisted of a massive soviet invasion of europe.
"There is no avoiding war. I can only be postponed for the advantage of others" or something like that.

 

[raystuttgart]

While he was completely insane, it cannot be denied how his charisma was essential for this disaster to happen.

No, really all he did was speed up the process.
There was so much discontent, hate, fear, distrust, poverty, conflicting ideologies, ... that another world war was inevitable.

• Without him the 2nd World War would have been a different one for sure.
• Without him the 2nd World War might have happened a few years later.
• Without him another country might have started it instead of Germany.
• Without him it might not have become a massive genocide of the Jewish people.
• Without him the allies and enemies could have been different ones.
  
• Without him ....

------

Summary:

It would just have been a different 2nd World War a few years later. Maybe it would have been less bloody or maybe even more.
But still, the European societies were boiling and 2 major rivaling ideologies "Fascism" and "Communism" had to eventually colide.

------

Please give up the illusion that 2nd World War was all just Adolf Hitler fault alone.
That is just an easy excuse or fairy tale told to people to feel better and more save.

 

[Fippy]

You are saying the world was terrible enuf without one of the most evil man in history, so that things would have played out similar, and i am out of that discussion cos imo it's nonsense.

 

[raystuttgart]

You are saying the world was terrible enuf without one of the most evil man in history, ...

I fully 100% agree that he was the most evil man in history.

I am just saying that you underestimate how bad the situation in Europe after the world economy crisis in the 1920's and after WW1 was.
And I also wanted to explain that at some point fascism and communism in Europe had to collide massively.

Maybe without Adolf Hitler, WW2 might have started 10 years later in 1950 instead of 1939.
Maybe without Adolf Hitler Germany would have fought on the side of communists.
Maybe ...

But again, I truly believe that situation in Europe was truly bad enough to ignite and explode at some point.
After the horrifiying events of WW2 the world had learned its lessons and wanted peace again.

But before WW2 the situation was different and many stupid idiots still glorified war and considered it a legitimate means of politics.
Even today there are still enough stupid people out there that think that violence can solve all problems.

Yes, Adolf Hitler was the "spark" that ignited the explosive mess and caused World War 2.
But another stupid idiot could also have served as a "spark" and would just have caused a different World War 2.

-------

Edit:

Humanity had to learn its lesson by a bloody war before becoming as "peaceful" as it is today. It needed to learn the lesson through suffering.
The thing that really brought relative peace to the World was actually the threat of a nucleare war leading to total extinction of humanity.

 

[bernie14]

Yup, another good example of what I call a "rat catcher" who is making lots of empty promises just to lure discontent voters.
(Sorry if I offend people, but that is simply how I think about him.)

Currently it may seem that the world has more of the racist, isolationist, nationalist, ... type of rat catchers.
But look aroud in the world and you will also find lots of equalist, socialist, unificationist, ... types of rat catchers as well.

Whatever seems to lure voters, you will find some unscrupulous liar that will try to use it for his goals.
And you can be pretty sure that there will always also be enough discontent people that will fall for it.

----

So back to the topic "What are Nazis?"

Easy answer that may be more complicate though if you dig deeper:

• People that are discontent and angry and have fallen for right wing propaganda of charismatic scrupulous "rat catchers".
  
• People that are looking for some easy answer to their problems even if all logic speaks against it because believing is more important than facts.
  
• People that are looking for somebody to blame for their problems which is easier to accept or even admit one's own faults.
• People that will tyrannice helpless victims that can not fight back just because seeing others suffer makes them feel less helpless themselves.

Was jesus a rat catcher?

 

[raystuttgart]

Was jesus a rat catcher?

I was generally speaking about "unscrupulous liars" telling whatever voters want to hear to just to serve their own goals.
People that refuse logic and facts because they do not support their goals and instead use fear and hate to drive their agenda.

Either it is the evil rich or the evil other race or the evil other political party or the evil ... whatever.
"Leaders" that saw hate and distrust just because discontent voters wanting to blame others for their problems will fall for it.

No idea though why you find a connection to Jesus in my words before.
Never heard of him saying something like "Jews First" or "We need to close the borders and build a wall to Syria" or "All Romans are criminals and rapists" or "Everything Is just fake news" or ...

 

[Birdjaguar]

Um, considering the effects of climate change might include mass death that disproportionately affects certain groups of people, it's not an entirely inappropriate comparison. But of course boomers who pooh-pooh climate change to begin with are going to get offended.

Everyone gets offended by the thoughts and actions of those they disagree with nowadays. And not only do they get offended, they like to make it known that they are offended. The internet and social media have given them the tools to do so. I'm offended because you're offended because she's offended....round and round the merry-go-round spins.

 

[Ajidica]

Please give up the illusion that 2nd World War was all just Adolf Hitler fault alone.
That is just an easy excuse or fairy tale told to people to feel better and more save.

There is no reason to assume that, even if a certain Austrian painter had been hit by a streetcar in 1910, a conflict of comparable scale to the Second World War would have developed. Like, there is pretty good evidence that Stalin was planning for a major armed conflict and invasion of Eastern Europe in the mid 1940s, but that was largely in response to France and Britain appearing to throw Czechoslovakia under the Nazi bus, demonstrating to Stalin the 'capitalists' preferred Nazis to Communists.
Even if German revanchist policies were put into effect, a partition of Poland and some fighting over Alsace-Lorraine does not a Second World War make.

 

[bernie14]

I was generally speaking about "unsrupulous liars" telling whatever voters want to hear to just to serve their own goals.
People that refuse logic and facts because they do not support their goals and instead use fear and hate to drive their agenda.

Either it is the evil rich or the evil other race or the evil other political party or the evil ... whatever.
"Leaders" that saw hate and distrust just because discontent voters wanting to blame others for their problems will fall for it.

No idea though why you find a connection to Jesus in my words before.
Never heard of him saying something like "Jews First" or "We need to close the borders and build a wall to Syria" or "All Romans are criminals and rapists" or "Everything Is just fake news" or ...

Thanks, i just took the term to mean a charismatic person who ends up with many followers

 

[bernie14]

Everyone gets offended by the thoughts and actions of those they disagree with nowadays. And not only do they get offended, they like to make it known that they are offended. The internet and social media have given them the tools to do so. I'm offended because you're offended because she's offended....round and round the merry-go-round spins.

Maybe people feel a need to express offense...marx would be joyful.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Everyone gets offended by the thoughts and actions of those they disagree with nowadays. And not only do they get offended, they like to make it known that they are offended. The internet and social media have given them the tools to do so. I'm offended because you're offended because she's offended....round and round the merry-go-round spins.

OK boomer....

 

[aelf]

Everyone gets offended by the thoughts and actions of those they disagree with nowadays. And not only do they get offended, they like to make it known that they are offended. The internet and social media have given them the tools to do so. I'm offended because you're offended because she's offended....round and round the merry-go-round spins.

The boomers didn't need social media to express the offence they felt. They used censorship and the government to outlaw things.

 

[raystuttgart]

Thanks, i just took the term to mean a charismatic person who ends up with many followers

Nope, there are in fact people out there that I think have earned to be respected and deserve to be followed.

These people however are honest about facts, admit that they are not unfailable and have a message of peace, cooperation and hope.
Not people that declare everything they do not like "fake news", call themselves the greatest leader ever and only have a message of hate, selfishness and fear.

Ask yourself maybe which type of leader you would rather have?
Then maybe ask yourself for which type of leader you or your country has voted last time?

----

If I e.g. take a look at Angela Merkel, she may have made mistakes in her career.
But she was never caught lying purposely, never bragged shamelessly and was also never trying to saw fear or hate. She e.g. tried to be humanitarian and help e.g. Syrian refugees.

If I however take a look at Donald Trump he is the complete contrary.
He was caught lying so often that media even stopped counting, endlessly bragging so much that the whole world considered him a clown and constantly sawing fear, hate and distrust.

----

Well, many leaders make mistake but there is a difference between a mistake and a lie or a crime.
I simply believe that especially for leaders something like character and morals are important.

----

To put it in other words:

How can a moral person support somebody with so little moral values and integrity, known for being a liar and accused of crimes even several times?
How can a person calling himself a christian vote for somebody famous for lying, immoral business behviour, treating his employees badly, hating foreign people, ... ?

Just because of sharing the same goals?
Just because of sharing some enemies?

In a world where moral values of leaders do not matter anymore everything suddenly becomes possible ...
In a world where our won moral values are conveniently forgotten because our selfish goals are more important everything suddenly becomes possible ...

----

Then none of us have to wonder if our next leader is suddenly a Nazi and the most evil person in the world starting the next genocide or World War 3 ...
But well, we simply share his goals and the same enemies. Who cares then if moral, truth and integrity are slaughtered in the process ...

 

[bernie14]

Nope, there are in fact people out there that I think have earned respected and deserve to be followed.

These people however are honest about facts, admit that they are not unfailable and have a message of peace, cooperation and hope.
Not people that declare everything they do not like "fake news", call themselves the greatest leader ever and only have a message of hate, selfishness and fear.

Ask yourself maybe which type of leader you would rather have?
Then maybe ask yourself for which type of leader you or your country has voted last time?

----

If I e.g. take a look at Angela Merkel, she may have made mistakes in her career.
But she was never caught lying purposely, never bragged shamelessly and was also never trying to saw fear or hate. She e.g. tried to be humanitarian and help e.g. Syrian refugees.

If I however take a look at Donald Trump he is the complete contrary.
He was caught lying so often that media even stopped counting, endlessly bragging so much that the whole world considered him a clown and constantly sawing fear, hate and distrust.

----

Well, many leaders make mistake but there is a difference between a mistake and a lie or a crime.
I simply believe that especially for leaders something like character and morals are important.

----

To put it in other words:

How can a moral person support somebody with so little moral values and integrity, known for being a liar and accused of crimes even several times?
How can a person calling himself a christian vote for somebody famous for lying, immoral business behviour, treating his employees badly, hating foreign people, ... ?

Just because of sharing the same goals?
Just because of sharing some enemies?

In a world where moral values of leaders do not matter anymore everything suddenly becomes possible ...
In a world where our won moral values are conveniently forgotten because our selfish goals are more important everything suddenly becomes possible ...

----

Then none of us have to wonder if our next leader is suddenly a Nazi and the most evil person in the world starting the next genocide or World War 3 ...
But well, we simply share his goals and the same enemies. Who cares then if moral, truth and integrity are slaughtered in the process ...

Agree to disagree...goals and consequences are on opposite sides of foresight and hindsight

 

[AmazonQueen]

The boomers didn't need social media to express the offence they felt. They used censorship and the government to outlaw things.

You are going to have to stop blaming the Boomers for everything soon.
Awful lot of Gen-X in positions of power now.

 

[raystuttgart]

Agree to disagree...goals and consequences are on opposite sides of foresight and hindsight

So you are saying that people vote for such "rat catchers" because they do not inform themselves about the person they actually vote for?
Seriously, these people have a history that is usually discussed up and down by media in all details which can only be ignored if you really want to.

These "rat catchers" do not magically change from a saint to a selfish liar and hater once voted.
They have always been of a selfish character throughout their history and that is really hard to hide for long.

----

I have head more than once argumentations from people voting such leaders basically boiling down to stuff like this:

• "Even if he is a liar, had sexual interactions with prostitutes, commited tax frauds, cheated his business partners, hates foreigners, ... he still is the only way forward."
• "I do not care who he is as a person, but he will take this elite society down that has ruined us. This country needs a cleansing fire to later be built from scratch again."
• "No matter what, things need to change. With the other guy everything would have stayed the same. So I rather vote an extremist than accept the status quo."
• "We need somebody strong to lead us into a new age. If he is not the most moral person or the most honest, I do not really care."
• "He promised, he will protect our jobs. Everything else does not matter to me and I am not even interested to hear it."
• ...

Such voters vote for such leaders because they do not care about morals, truth or integrity anymore, because they are fed up, discontent or even desperate.
They would even vote for a pig in a ballerina dress as long as somebody told them that it serves their goals and that pig would "Make ... great again !"

----

We may find many excuses about why such "rat catchers" come to power.
We may try to tell ourselves later the excuse "Oh, I simply did not know ...".

The simple truth:

The people that vote for such "rat catchers" do not care about the true character of these "rat cathers" anymore.
Discontent or desperation of these people has to a huge degree overshadowed morals and logic already.

They vote for such "rat catchers" because all they are interest is their own selfish goals and that is exactly what those "rat catchers" promise them.
They do not care about the christian morals or environment or humanity as a whole anymore. All they still care about is themselves, their family and maybe their own country.

----

Let us face it:

Once we humans face problems that make us discontent and desperate enough, morals and logic have very little value for us anymore.
We become selfish, aggressive and stupid beings following the mass in the hope of somehow benefitting ourselves from it as well.

----

These are the mechanism that generally all extremists "rat catchers" rise to power.
Left or right does not really matter anymore. All that matters is that there are enough discontent and desperate people.

So I can only repeat to the question "What is a Nazi?" below:

Easy answer that may be more complicate though if you dig deeper:

• People that are discontent and angry and have fallen for right wing propaganda of charismatic scrupulous "rat catchers".
  
• People that are looking for some easy answer to their problems even if all logic speaks against it because believing is more important than facts.
  
• People that are looking for somebody to blame for their problems which is easier to accept or even admit one's own faults.
• People that will tyrannice helpless victims that can not fight back just because seeing others suffer makes them feel less helpless themselves.

If you asked me about "What is a religious extremist?" or "What is an left extremist?" the answer would be almost identical.
The only difference is that they had fallen for a different type of propaganda and a different type of "rat catchers".

----

It is extremely simple:

Once people become discontent enough or desperate enough they are subsceptible to propaganda, lies and the next promise of an "easy solution" as long as it fits their goals.
Once that happens the "rat catchers" will crawl out of their sewers and arise to power because people do not care about things like morals, integrity or truth anymore.

It is not like voters were just stupid and could be lied to because we accidently did not inform ourselves.
It is in most cases an active choice to be stupid because we simply want to hear and believe the lies they tell us.

Everything else is pretty much a cheap excuse of people not wanting to admit that they put selfishness before morals.
The signals were obvious and abandundant but voters just did not want to see them ...

----

Does anybyody really believe that stuff like "America first" or "All Mexicans are criminals" are messages of hope and friendship?
Tell me something like this is a message of moral values or logic or even common sense? Seriously?

Does anybyody really believe that Brexit happened because of moral values of cooperation and friendship? It was a stupid decision driven by misguided selfishness.
It happened because of Britain still dreaming of being a powerful Empire that is able to suppress and exploit other countries for its own benefit.

Does anybyody really believe that conquering Poland by the Nazi was an act of helping a neighbour country to finally get rid of the evil Jews suppressing it.
It happened because Nazi Germany was seeking to conquer other countries to exploit their resources and to gain power.

Sure, I am aware that these 3 examples can not really be compared.
Neither Donald Trump nor BoJo commited attrocities like Adolf Hitler.
Neither the US nor the British started a war or commited a genocide.

All I am saying is that the reasons and mechanisms for these guys being voted into power were similar:
People were simply fed up with the existing ruling class and voted for "rat catchers" telling them lies.
They simply had chosen to ignore the selfish characters of these people because they shared their goals.

----

In other words:

Whenever selfishness, discontent and hate overcome moral and logic stupid things happen.
It is just human nature though because we become stupid seflish beings again once angry or desperate enough.

And once that happens we do not want leaders that have morals or integrity anymore because they would stand in our ways.
We want leaders that are just as selfish, stupid, discontent and full of hate as we are ourselves that do everything for their goals.

----

Well again, maybe consider what you or your country has voted for last time.
Maybe consider what that tells about yourself and try to figure out for yourself why it had happened honestly.

Or maybe try to find more cheap excuses for what happened so you can continue to do it just the same next time.
This time it may still work but next time your leader may be the new "Adolf Hitler" and cheap excuses may not be that easy to find anymore ...