What is communism ?

[Ajidica]

I cant imagine the way to a Communist State (the ideal Communist state) through the force of arms; I can imagine the creation of a Jewish State through the force of arms though.

Thats where your line of thought breaks down. There is no Communist state. While socialist states can be formed through military actions, the military cannot be the means by which the government stays in power.

 

[Eretz Yisrael]

Thats where your line of thought breaks down. There is no Communist state. While socialist states can be formed through military actions, the military cannot be the means by which the government stays in power.

Exactly; what use of it then when it is no possible to implement at all? At least a Jewish State is maintainable militarily.

 

[Ajidica]

How can you say it is impossible to implement when it has never been tried? Marxism-Leninism was going to fail eventualy due to its statist nature, SocDem isn't far left enought, and Anarchist Catalonia didn't last long enough.
It would be like dismissing Liberalism because all you saw was Cromwell and the Protectorate, The French Revolution, and the failure of the Provisional Government.

 

[Eretz Yisrael]

How can you say it is impossible to implement when it has never been tried? Marxism-Leninism was going to fail eventualy due to its statist nature, SocDem isn't far left enought, and Anarchist Catalonia didn't last long enough.
It would be like dismissing Liberalism because all you saw was Cromwell and the Protectorate, The French Revolution, and the failure of the Provisional Government.

No, I would not trust the Cult of Reason, nor would I believe in Humanism (I do believe in classical liberalism).

I'll give Kierkegaard, Kafka and the Paris Commune as reasons for the above.

 

[Xanikk999]

No, I would not trust the Cult of Reason, nor would I believe in Humanism (I do believe in classical liberalism).

I'll give Kierkegaard, Kafka and the Paris Commune as reasons for the above.

Am i the only one who looked at that sentence and saw the words "cult" and "kafka" and immediately thought he was talking about final fantasy 6?

I play too many video games..

 

[civver_764]

Well, that depends on how you interpret his intermediate stage of "socialism". Some would have it as a stateless society similar to anarcho-syndicalism or anarcho-collectivism, some see it as authoritarian statism, and others see it as every colour in between. Marx seemed to sit somewhere in the middle, advocating the sort of parliamentarianism which the Left-Communists frequently rejected, and the sort of grass-roots popular revolution that the vanguardists viewed as impossible.

Well we know the Paris Commune got a few things right(according to Marx), and they were probably the closest thing to socialism during his lifetime. They were much less authoritarian than the Soviet Union was.

Not that I'm gonna diss Lenin. He was pretty legit, there was just a lot of problems he had to deal with. I think the USSR would have had a lot of potential under him.

The assertion that Somalia, which is anarchy, is remotely anything like "Anarchism" is one of the most intellectually dishonest claims one can make.

+1. There's so many things in this thread that are making me rage.

(Anarchist Catalonia is the closest they got, and they had a little problem called Fascists.)

Haha. And it's also worth noting than Anarchist Catalonia was probably the most socially liberal "country" for it's time.

People saying that communism never works: You should remember that it took capitalists like several hundred years before they were able to successful establish themselves as the ruling class(without devolving into some sort of military dictatorship that is)? Slavery was around before that for thousands of years. Capitalism really only took hold in the mid 19th century outside of England, it's not really surprising that it still persists.

 

[Ajidica]

Yep. Think of the USSR as the trial run of Socialism on a large scale. It failed, of course, so now we know what to do next time. English Civil War was the trial run of Liberalism. Sure, it failed with the Protectorate, but would anybody dismiss Liberalism as not being sucessful and quite powerful?

 

[Eretz Yisrael]

Am i the only one who looked at that sentence and saw the words "cult" and "kafka" and immediately thought he was talking about final fantasy 6?

I play too many video games..

...um...Existentialism then?

 

[Eretz Yisrael]

Yep. Think of the USSR as the trial run of Socialism on a large scale. It failed, of course, so now we know what to do next time. English Civil War was the trial run of Liberalism. Sure, it failed with the Protectorate, but would anybody dismiss Liberalism as not being sucessful and quite powerful?

They never last long, do they?

 

[Ajidica]

USSR lasted 70 years. A fairly respectable time for a trial run. The Protectorate lasted what, 20?

 

[civver_764]

USSR lasted 70 years. A fairly respectable time for a trial run. The Protectorate lasted what, 20?

Ehh, you couldn't really call it socialist at all past the first few years.

 

[Ajidica]

They are socialist in the way Pinochet was Capitalist.

 

[Eretz Yisrael]

Ehh, you couldn't really call it socialist at all past the first few years.

Exactly. You have to applaud Lenin's efforts though; he actually managed to preside over Russia during a mess of a civil war.

 

[Ajidica]

Don't forget Trotsky.

 

[Traitorfish]

They are socialist in the way Pinochet was Capitalist.

Well, not really- Pinochet maintained the capitalist mode of productive relations, while Lenin failed to establish a socialist one.

Exactly. You have to applaud Lenin's efforts though; he actually managed to preside over Russia during a mess of a civil war.

Although one which he made worse by cracking down on his potential allies on the non-Bolshevik far left.

 

[Quackers]

changing my opinion.

communism is a jack-boot stamping on the human face forever.

 

[Eretz Yisrael]

Well, not really- Pinochet maintained the capitalist mode of productive relations, while Lenin failed to establish a socialist one.


Although one which he made worse by cracking down on his potential allies on the non-Bolshevik far left.

But he still pulled it off, and died in Russia.

Trotsky led the Red Army, and got axed(?) in Mexico.

If I were Trotsky, I at least would have prefered to die in Russia.

 

[Ajidica]

Although one which he made worse by cracking down on his potential allies on the non-Bolshevik far left.

But if Lenin hadn't cracked down on the Mensheviks, could he have prevailed against Kerensky and Kornilov? I'm not sure. One of the Bolsheviks greatest strength was a near monopoly of ideology.

Trotsky led the Red Army, and got axed(?) in Mexico.

I think it was ice-picked.

communism is a jack-boot stamping on the human face forever.

Sure you aren't talking about Libertarianism?

 

[Traitorfish]

But if Lenin hadn't cracked down on the Mensheviks, could he have prevailed against Kerensky and Kornilov? I'm not sure. One of the Bolsheviks greatest strength was a near monopoly of ideology.

I meant the Socialist Revolutionaries and the Anarchists. Most of them willingly participated in the October Revolution, but posed a threat to Bolshevik hegemony. And then there's the Makhnovchina, which is a discussion in itself...

I think it was ice-picked.

Ice-picked, and then proceeded to punch the guy out. Say what you like about Leon, he had a set of balls on him.

 

[Ajidica]

Makhnovchina

Who?

Say what you like about Leon, he had a set of balls on him.

Well yeah. He had the mustace and the beard. Didn't he also wear a monocole?