It's a matter of opinions. I do think Venice was powerful and that it is important. Maybe I'm just afraid of the way they're going to implement it as a civ. A "one city challenge" civ, mmm, I don't know, it could be interesting, but it could be bad implemented. And that, being this a game, is a very important issue. I think we all have to wait and see how things are going to work. I give it a "maybe".
What is your opinion on Venice possibly being included as a civ?
- Thread starter Botswana
- Start date
Why not Florence or Burgandy or Aragon or Lithuania or Hungary. My issue with Venice is that in and of itself it doesn't really stand out from the pack. All the options listed had significant size and power during the same time period Venice had it's power. What makes them stand out? All have cases - some arguably better cases for inclusion.
Portugal was probably our last great Euro power not represented. After that we have maybe 20 or 30 2nd tier Euro choices all of who have quite reasonable cases for inclusion.
Meanwhile we have parts of the world underrepresented and with design elements that simply dont occur elsewhere.
If Venice is in then it's in and I just hope they come up with an interesting design.
If we were going to get one Euro from that region I'd almost have gone for the Papal States and done a design totally around religion - at least it would have been different to most anything else we have seen design wise. The Celts and Byzantines are really the only religious designs and it would be easy enough to avoid those elements in design.
Dragonflow
Emperor
They kinda "invented" Capitalism.
Hungary is the last European great power missing and I have a feeling that it'll take a while until they get it.
Joe Hoofer
Chieftain
Despite being another European civ, I still kinda like it because it's still a unique enough culture.
...You know, maybe they WILL go for the Papal States or all of the Italian city-states and just use the Venetian colors.
...You know, maybe they WILL go for the Papal States or all of the Italian city-states and just use the Venetian colors.
I meant it terms of having a huge empire outside their traditional lands - the Portuguese had that huge territory after the start of the age of exploration. Hungary is certainly a worthy civ candidate and was one of those I consider as probably having a better case than Venice. Hungary has Austria and the Huns which hurt their chances somewhat. I know the Huns were not originally from Hungary but the time period depicted in the game is the period in which they were based East of the River Danube and launched their conquests of the Eastern Roman Empire and parts of Western Europe. It's the same basic location. The Huns lack of a city list does nothing to prevent Hungary coming in and Austria not having Hungarian cities actually encourages it. The Hungarians definitely expanded out at some stages and frankly I probably expected them to be the next Euro civ picked (Although Italy has a case) and Olga from Kiev Rus is a leader I really really want to see.
Oh and Venice didn't invent capitalism. That was around long before Venice was even founded - We humans are greedy little beggars.
Moraiwe
Warlord
I admit I'm surprised that Hungary hasn't already made it. Lithuania, Aragon and Burgandy I don't feel I know enough about to say yay or nay. In terms of political entities, I feel that Venice's achievements are greater than Florence's, though the legacy of Florence has perhaps had a greater impact on modern Italy. However, there aren't unlimited civs that are getting made... if you wanted to choose one from this list I wouldn't consider Venice a poor choice. What makes Venice stand out for me:
- near 800 years of unbroken independence
- never succumbing to hereditary rule in that time
- chiefly responsible for the dismantling of the Byzantine empire
- medieval thalassocracy (at present, I don't think the game does this well and I hope it improves)
- power not defined by land area
I could continue but what's the point? You could no doubt make similar lists for those others mentioned. I doubt they'd be the same as Venice's and it's the particular combination that makes Venice stand out to me (ie. the others would stand out in other ways). Note, I'm not saying it's better, but it appeals more to me than many other civs already in the game.
Point taken Moraiwe.
Hungary definitlyseems short changed.
My issue with Venice is that I dont see how the elements listed are going to be designed into something that feels unique. Kievan Rus under Olga or The Papal States have religion which might give them an edge in that Religion hasn't been used in design that much (Celts, Byzantine). In Venice's case it's more trade than anything else and the problem there is we have the Dutch. Portugal, Arabia, Morocco & Indonesia all with heavy trade designs already in or coming in. If we were going for culture then Florence really probably edges it with Dante, Leonardo, Michealagelo etc.
I dont think they are a terrible choice I just dont see what makes them stand out - Canals and Glass. Maybe Tourism. If they surprised us and did a design less about trade and more about culture especially offensive tourism culture then perhaps that might work
Hungary definitlyseems short changed.
My issue with Venice is that I dont see how the elements listed are going to be designed into something that feels unique. Kievan Rus under Olga or The Papal States have religion which might give them an edge in that Religion hasn't been used in design that much (Celts, Byzantine). In Venice's case it's more trade than anything else and the problem there is we have the Dutch. Portugal, Arabia, Morocco & Indonesia all with heavy trade designs already in or coming in. If we were going for culture then Florence really probably edges it with Dante, Leonardo, Michealagelo etc.
I dont think they are a terrible choice I just dont see what makes them stand out - Canals and Glass. Maybe Tourism. If they surprised us and did a design less about trade and more about culture especially offensive tourism culture then perhaps that might work
Absolution
King
If common knowledge was the main reasons to add civilizations it would be 24 European civilizations + America + China + Egypt.
That's right.
So they had been one of the top tirbes. Woohoo!
Do you know how poor is that in European standards? Or in Middle Eastern standards? Or in South Asian standards?
I can make the same points for Harappan culture, or ancient Turkic tribes, or ancient Germanic tribes, not to mention Etruscans, Arameans, Scythians and many more Old World peoples who are not considered significant at all, and it would look ridiculous adding them to the game, but actually did much more than the Iroquois.
My point is that you all are so busy fighting the Euro-centrism that you don't notice how Native Tribes Centric you are.
There are really many great civilizations outside of Europe. Why adding more American tribes?
Another Mesoamerican? What would it be? Olmec?Although certainly, if I were to have my option for Native American civs, they would come from much further south in general. The Pueblo, more Mesoamerican civs, more Andean Civs, etc. who had significant Pre-Colombian empires of their own right
That area is well represented, even better than Europe.
And back to the topic:
I would like to see Domenico Selvo.
I think he was the greatest dodge and somehow responsible to the glory of Venice.
If common knowledge was the main reasons to add civilizations it would be 24 European civilizations + America + China + Egypt.
That's right.
So they had been one of the top tirbes. Woohoo!
Do you know how poor is that in European standards? Or in Middle Eastern standards? Or in South Asian standards?
I can make the same points for Harappan culture, or ancient Turkic tribes, or ancient Germanic tribes, not to mention Etruscans, Arameans, Scythians and many more Old World peoples who are not considered significant at all, and it would look ridiculous adding them to the game, but actually did much more than the Iroquois.
My point is that you all are so busy fighting the Euro-centrism that you don't notice how Native Tribes Centric you are.
There are really many great civilizations outside of Europe. Why adding more American tribes?
Another Mesoamerican? What would it be? Olmec?
That area is represented better than Europe.
And back to the topic:
I would like to see Domenico Selvo.
I think he was the greatest dodge and somehow responsible to the glory of Venice.
Totally agree. Canada needs to be in the game with Elliot Trudeau as supreme leader of the universe.
GIO888
King
Ah, Americans.
Its not your fault, you think ancient is a coke bottle from 1893.
No Venetian Republic, no little jaunt by a chap name of Christopher Columbus. He was Venetian.
You might have heard of him......
Its not your fault, you think ancient is a coke bottle from 1893.
No Venetian Republic, no little jaunt by a chap name of Christopher Columbus. He was Venetian.
You might have heard of him......
Moraiwe
Warlord
While there are other claims, Columbus is generally accepted to be from the Genoa are, not Venetian.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
My problem with Italy isn't that Italy = Rome, it was that Rome = Rome and I don't think Italy can be done justice without the city that's been its cultural heart even when Florence was its equal.
That's a very cool leader screen. Did you make that? You have to fudge a bit to make Nzinga the leader of the Kongo, though, which is one of my main concerns (and I've definitely been thinking if there is a way to do it because her history is fascinating). If the Africa scenario doesn't have Ndongo and Matamba, I'll strongly consider modding them in.
Anyway, to give my thoughts. The most disappointed I ever was with a Civ was the inclusion of the Huns. By contrast, I'm thrilled with Venice. I always thought it was an extremely unlikely choice but a hidden gem of a civilization - particularly a Medieval Kingdom of great importance that is identifiable today (unlike Burgandy) but isn't a modern state. I think their history is so different that it's hard to lump them in with any of their neighbors. It was a small city with a spread out sea-based empire before sea-based empires were cool with a fairly unique governmental system floating in the middle of water filled with beautiful canals. They mass-produced ships assembly-line style, financed Christian Kingdoms on holy wars, and went toe-to-toe with the Ottoman Empire.
Plus, the Indonesian thread made me think that Firaxis can truly do it justice.
So long as the other unrevealed civ is some North American native group, such as the Sioux, I'm perfectly happy with also seeing the Venitian Republic. However If they are included, and their inclusion means there is no other NA civ I'll be very disapointed. The Iriquis and USA are not enough to fill that part of the world.
Absolution
King
I see it equal to having Siam without Bangkok.
Sukuthai was the center at the time, and this is a logical choice.
In the Renaissance Rome was the center of Latin culture and Catholicism, not the center of Italian culture and art, and barely the center of Italian diplomacy and military.
So adding Italy with Florence as its capital does make sense to me.
Florence indeed served as the capital of both the Republic of Florence and the Grand Duchy of Tuscany. Both were very important in the Italian history, and can be represented by Medici leaders such as Lorenzo or Gian Gastone.
I agree with you about Venice.
But about the Huns, I don't think they don't "deserve" being included, however it is true that they barely fit to the mechanic of the game.
How about Canada...
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
It's hard for me to accept that the Sistine Chapel wasn't a major part of the Renaissance culture. Rome was a major patronage city for Italian artists. The Papacy made it an important part of Italy and the rest of Europe too. The Renaissance remained a very religious time and Catholicism was an important part of daily life and the art so the center of Catholicism was important for Italy as well. Let's also not forget the fights that Florence got involved in over the next Pope (trying to get Medicis) and that Pope Alexander's son was Cesare Borgia, who nearly conquered all of Italy.
A terrible option and already ruled out in multiple ways.
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