What is your opinion on Venice possibly being included as a civ?

[Sonereal]

Maybe it was just a lesser amount of noisier people in support.

Someone upstairs just didn't want me to eat my hat I think.

Though, I would be happy if Venice is included in retrospect. It is the right kind of specific.

Uh... there are by definition no third World Nations in the game as there aren't nations in the game, but rather Civilizations.

Go ahead though, enlighten us with the "third World nations" in the game.

 

[gunnergoz]

Aside from Rome's contributions to culture after the Roman Empire, every schoolboy knows that Rome is the capital of Italy and that should be upheld ( it is the capital for good reason too). It's just basic association of European country with European capital.

Italy is more than Rome and Italians will be the first to tell you so. Italy is first and foremost a collection of semi-united regions and cities, joined by a common government and a common (official) language. Local sentiment and dialects still prevail over national ones. Communal memory is long and still revered.

The selection of Venice as a civilization is astute; Venetians self-identify with their unique city, culture and dialect. Their history as a self-governing entity predates that of the Italian state. Their contribution to Mediterranean history and particularly the history of the Renaissance is extensive. They invented modern banking practice, among other things. At their peak, they reached far beyond the borders of their own city and had influence in all the major capitals of Europe. Their representatives reached the Far East and brought back products and ideas never seen before in Europe.

In terms of cultural and scientific influence during and after the Renaissance, Venice may only have been eclipsed by Florence, but the latter did not have the economic reach or strength that Venice possessed in its heyday. I would have loved to see Florence in the game as a civilization, but the factors arguing for Venice's inclusion seem to me to be persuasive and undeniable.

Rome may be the capitol of the modern Italian state and seat of the Vatican, but Italian history did not center around the city of Rome after the Roman Empire collapsed. Even the construct of "Italy" as a state is a fairly modern one, still debated in Italy itself. So I disagree with your premise that Rome is the sole proper representative of the many cultures on the Italian peninsula.

 

[SnowKomodo]

I have longed felt any of the Italian states (or Italy itself) should have been in the game previously and easily over most of the third-world nations.

 

[codepoet]

I originally wanted Florence as a civ. "Italy" is too modern and would naturally entail WW2 implications (something Firaxis seems to steer away from) and what I really wanted is a civ with perks and bonuses from the Renaissance.
I don't know if Venice will focus on Renaissance culture or trade or even war in combination with all those. The fact that I do not know what focus it might take on is evidence that Venice alone is significant in world history... significant to make an interesting addition to the game.
I welcome Venice even though I originally wanted FLorence.

 

[Sonereal]

I originally wanted Florence as a civ. "Italy" is too modern and would naturally entail WW2 implications (something Firaxis seems to steer away from) and what I really wanted is a civ with perks and bonuses from the Renaissance.
I don't know if Venice will focus on Renaissance culture or trade or even war in combination with all those. The fact that I do not know what focus it might take on is evidence that Venice alone is significant in world history... significant to make an interesting addition to the game.
I welcome Venice even though I originally wanted FLorence.

If they stick with historic Venice, probably a heavy focus on trade and naval might. The addition of trade, hopefully, will make the naval game more interesting in any case.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Hungary is the last European great power missing and I have a feeling that it'll take a while until they get it.

I fear the same :/
I don't mind Venice as a full civ, but Hungary should have come first...
It would have been a much clearer choice for the last Euro civ in the expansion

The Huns lack of a city list does nothing to prevent Hungary coming in and Austria not having Hungarian cities actually encourages it. The Hungarians definitely expanded out at some stages and frankly I probably expected them to be the next Euro civ picked

I admit I'm surprised that Hungary hasn't already made it.

Hungary definitlyseems short changed.

 

[Absolution]

2 Mesoamerican civs? Hardly better represented than Europe lol Lets put it this way, Central America is large landmass wise comparative to a continent like Europe(bigger on definitions of extents). For Mesoamerica there are several major empires the Toltec [The Persians of the New World], Teotihuacan [The Assyrians of the New World], the Zapotecs [The Hittites of the new World], the Olmec comparatively can be said to be
similar to the Sumerians of the Old World

That's ignoring the great South American Empires too. The 3 hundred year war between the Huari and Tiwanaku empires and subsequent "cold war", that shaped centuries of history. The Chachapoya who controlled trade between South America and the rest of the world, controlling the gateway between the Amazons, the Panama Isthmus, and with substantial proof that they traded even with Polynesian islands [As seen by various Pacific plants in the tombs of royals], and various other South American civs that offer tons in fascinating gameplay

You are magnifying everything.
For every 3 civilizations you say that are missing in America I can bring up 6 that are missing in Europe and Asia.
So what if some are missing? You can't include every civilization. Just the very dominant ones.
And these are the Aztecs, the Maya and the Inca.
You can rightfully say that the Toltec or the Huari were indeed important and influential, but we don't have enough information about them and there are no known leaders of them, so they are in a lower priority.
I think that civilizations like Afghans, Kushans, Tamils, Burmese, Khmers, Gokturks, Hittites, Seljuqs, Xiongnu, Tibetans, Vietnamese, Bulgarians, Venetians, Congolese, or Malagasy are much more important AND documented, and also can represented a not fully represented area (except the Khmers and Venetians), those are in a higher priority to me than some more Mesoamericans.
Adding more of those Mesoamericans that you mentioned are similar to adding the Akkadians or Elam to the current game - they were important, but people will rightfully say - "there are greater empires for their spot, their area and their culture is already fully represented."
However I do support adding more CS like Teotihuacan (which is a classic CS).

This IS a US-Centric game Absolution no matter how much you hate it (which seems an awful lot). It means we will get an America-esique focus, so when I point out what the Iroquois did, yes it did make them more significant than many other tribes here in the US. It certainly didn't make them people stuck in the mud as you and others have said

We have had 4 different civs from Mesopotamia. Comparatively we only have 2 from Mesoamerica which is nearly as big as Europe. And only 1 from the west of South America. Not that I expect either of course, partly because of Euro-Centrism and partly because many of these civs are less known in the US. From gameplay perspectives they can do plenty with other civs too even possibly lesser ones like the Sioux if they do include them.

Please, don't compare Mesopotamia to Mesoamerica.

 

[baptismbyfire]

You're forgetting a LOT of civilizations, i'm sure many have heard of Japan, indonesia, China, Brazil, and all the other civs in civilization. The point is that Venice is not known for anything other than a tourist destination, as it is never featured as a separate entity in history books, always a part of Italy.

This would make its inclusion in the game as a dark horse civilization, and there are much more civilizations that should take that spot, whose history can't be gleaned from a visit to the modern day country. You couldn't go to Hittica to learn of the Hittites, and going to some places in Africa is not only quite dangerous due to civil war, but there would not be many museums where you could learn of the countries past.

Long story short Venice is taking up a slot that would be better given to a different civilization.

I'm not sure what history books you're reading. They've been present in plenty of mine. If you mean the US History books that they hand out in grammar schools, then you'd be hard pressed to find any mention of Italy outside of Marco Polo, Columbus, immigration to the US and WWII. And you certainly won't find any mention of Indonesia or Brazil. Even Germany and Russia, two of the dominant forces in world history, are likely not mentioned until you get to WWI. The horrific state of the American education system should not be any guide to creating the civilizations.

I don't get the dig at Venice for being a tourist destination. Isn't Paris? Isn't London? Just because you can currently visit countries doesn't mean they shouldn't be included. The test should be the influence on world culture and Venice, whether you or the common man knows it or not, was hugely influential. Capitalism as we know it today was formed there. Maybe it would have happened anyway in Florence, but it doesn't change that fact. The sack of Constantinople, the part played in financing Crusades, the control over the intercontinental trade prior to the age of sail and the Battle of Lepanto, which is the largest galley naval battle and effectively ended the hopes of the Ottomans to continue expanding into Europe and heralded that empire's long decline, all evidence an incredibly and sadly neglected civilization to date. For a country that has so influenced the world, Italy's representation should not be limited to Romans and somewhat unimportant city-states.

 

[SnowKomodo]

Some of the blatant cherry-picking of information used as ammo against Venice is comical.

They are more than deserving of a spot in Civ - particularly when you look at the direction this game has gone. Don't like it? Deal with it, because they're in. (Or so the theories say)

 

[gunnergoz]

They will stand a better chance of picking up more sales if Venice is included than from the inclusion of most other cultures. Simple economics is one factor behind these choices...look to the markets where software is sold, not to markets where it is pirated, if you want to see where some possible civ choices will come from.

 

[Menzies]

Some of the blatant cherry-picking of information used as ammo against Venice is comical.

They are more than deserving of a spot in Civ - particularly when you look at the direction this game has gone. Don't like it? Deal with it, because they're in. (Or so the theories say)

THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES
THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES
THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES
THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES
THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES
THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES
THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES
THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES
THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES
THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES
THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES
THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES THEORIES

There, is it out of everyone's system now? They aren't "theories", "theories" would suggest that they are solid, well tested and predictive. They are not, what we have are some observations, an observed relation and a proposed explanation to the origin of a particular pair of colours. At no point is that a "theory".

 

[SnowKomodo]

Dude, Menzies, you have to seriously calm down with this stuff. That was not the heart of my sentence, just a word I chose in the parenthesis

 

[JFD]

Dude, Menzies, you have to seriously calm down with this stuff. That was not the heart of my sentence, just a word I chose in the parenthesis

Let him do his job.

 

[Melo-Franco]

Robert Menzies admired so deeply the Nazi government that I really think most things he writes here are not that insane, comparatively.

 

[Camarada78]

I think i am not excited to Venice. It is kinda boring.... Specially with the missing Hungary, way more important "nation-wise" in the shape of Europe... We have Poland, Austria... but not Hungary?!

Not very exciting, but might be fun... But who will they pick to be the leader?

****

It would be very hard to make an Olmec civ, since even the name is appointed by other later civs.

I think the only missing civ in the Americas is the short-lived Gran Colombia (and Bolivar), short in union but way stronger in its cultural and nationalistic aspect. Much more relevant to the shape of america as a whole than Iroquois or Sioux.

Some civs I miss:

- Mughal
- Nubia
- Nepal

 

[sukritact]

I am now slightly worried about the nature of Venice's possible inclusion due to the Hyperbole civ...

 

[Optional]

I am now slightly worried about the nature of Venice's possible inclusion due to the Hyperbole civ...

Whatever anybody's thinking of Venice's inclusion, it's going to be interesting to see what they've done with it. In a recent Q&A the developers said;

It’s a Civ with such a unique play style that no civ ever before has ever been designed this way. It’s not just outside the box, it’s in an entirely separate hypercube.

Also the guy from PC Gamer considered it a bit of a bombshell. Not much against this thread, but about everybody here considers Venice to be an ordinary civ, while we have reason to believe it won't be quite that. Especially saying something like 'I would have preferred another civ' might not make a lot of sense. They may have done something quite unique with Venice which they couldn't have done with something else.

 

[Xandinho]

Venice has a huge chance of being included in the expansion
although I prefer other European countries such as Italy, Belgium, Switzerland, Hungary
In some ways I prefer it this vacancy was filled with an Asian civ, I still dream with civilization in Vietnam included in future

 

[Colmar]

Let him do his job.

As the Official Nitpicker of Wording?

 

[fat_tonle]

I think they want a civ with a unique language. Venice will be speaking Italian. Hungary didn't make the cut because as a nation it probably never rivaled Venice at its height and is already overlapped by Austria.