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What other Civs would you like to see added to DoC

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by AtlantaMarty, Apr 18, 2017.

  1. Theodorick

    Theodorick King

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    OK I was being smarmy there, since I always get annoyed seeing it instead of Teotihuacan. Monte Alban was a decent regional power, but its power and influence pales when compared to Teotihuacan.

    If you were to put Teotihuacan in it's place, it would be either two or three tiles north of Monte Alban. This city would actually be able to grow rather powerful, and still put plenty of pressure on the Mayans. It would be far more historical to have Teotihuacan there as well.

    It would be destroyed when the Aztec's spawn. I see no reason this is a bad thing, since it was largely abandoned by then anyways.
     
  2. ozqar

    ozqar King

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    Being Mexican, I feel I should weigh in and say that, yes, the Zapotec city of Monte Albán dominated the region of Oaxaca at the time, but indeed Teotihuacán was a far more powerful city. Teotihuacan was deserted by the time the Aztecs arrived in the Valley of Mexico, so if Tenochtitlan's founding razes Teotihuacán (in the map they're adjacent tiles), it wouldn't be ahistorical. For historical reasons, it does make more sense to have Teotihuacán, but maybe there's a gameplay reason (annoying the Mayans haha?) to have Monte Albán instead?

    That made me think again about city ruins, of course. I don't play the Git version, so I don't know if anything with the Social Sciences tech has been implemented to represent archaeological research in city ruins? Clearly there's no point in keeping city ruins using a tile for hundreds of years, but it would be nice if there was a worker action to "uncover city ruins (removes farm/mine/town/etc)" and have the city ruins give culture and science to the city. This could be boosted with tourism to also yield commerce.
     
  3. ozqar

    ozqar King

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    Oh wow, I clicked "post reply" just to see the page refreshing and showing you said the exact same thing about the cities!
     
  4. Malchar

    Malchar Prince

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    If it gets razed by the Aztec spawn, then wouldn't Maya be the only civ that could possibly interact with the city? Even then, they would have to fight past Monte Alban to reach it.
     
  5. mccp77

    mccp77 Warlord

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    I wantde to weigh in on the Eastern Europe point.

    I agree that Russia needs more of a challenge. But I don't think this is an urgent issue to be addressed bc some mod mods have already addressed it. Granted, I'm not playing with the new version of the mod with the new tech tree, but the Sweden and Golden Horde mod mods greatly enhance the Eastern European scene.

    As for Lithuania, it shouldn't be included. The golden age of Polish and Lithuanian power was as part of the Commonwealth. So while this doesn't jive with our normal definition of a civilization, some creative license may be in order here to let Poland represent both in a limited space to improve gameplay. Just like how Malays and Javanese are very different but because their golden ages didn't overlap, it's acceptable (although not preferable) for gameplay reasons to keep 1 civ there instead of 2, so there are more civ slots for more important additions. Sometimes we have to compromise on historicity to improve gameplay.

    That said, I think a quick and easy fix to challenge Russia more without adding civs would be to make the Vikings stop chronically collapsing after 1400-ish. A stronger Sweden would be both historically accurate and give Russia a rival other than Poland.

    Another way to improve gameplay as Russia is to make the Balkans south of Hungary and more than just the Crimean peninsula flip to the Ottomans on spawn. A stronger Ottomans will also challenge Russia a little more, and flipping more than just Anatolia to the Ottomans seems historically justified.

    Finally, some random barb spawns to represent Cossack revolts that happened periodically wouldn't be an unreasonable idea although I'm personally opposed to it.

    But I agree that Russia gets too strong too fast. In most of my games they're a superpower too soon before 1945. They need to be delayed some.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2017
  6. MechatronicJazz

    MechatronicJazz Warlord

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    On the topic of Russia, once the Central Asian Turkic civ is added, that will put pressure on the Russian expansion into Asia. While more challenge in Eastern Europe would be good, the largely unchallenged eastern expansion is probably even more ahistorical than the situation in Europe.
     
  7. mccp77

    mccp77 Warlord

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    Is one of those being added? I didn't think that was in the cards for a whole host of reasons.
     
  8. Finbros

    Finbros Chieftain

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    About Russia - Rus' that respawns as Ukraine/Belarus and this "Central-Asia-civ" with Tatarstan/Bashkiria in historical/core.
    Also for Eastern Europe flavour can be added respawn of Byzanthium as some generic Balkan civ (no UU, no UP, state name depends of the capital - Croatia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Bosnia, Romania, Albania or even International Free Zone)

    So, Rus/Ruthenia/Ukraine and Muscovy/Russia/USSR.

    Rus - spawn 860 in the Kiev, 2nd settler near Novgorod.
    UU - Cossack (vanilla) or Ushkui (scout with attacking ability);
    UB - Ostrog/Detinets (replacement of walls, cheaper but without production bonus from stone).
    UP - Power of Amber road: units can use rivers as roads.
    UHV:
    - Raids of Svyatoslav: kill 15 enemy units before 1000 AD
    - Shield of Europe: do not lose any city to Barbarians or Mongols until 1500 AD
    - Mother of the Russian cities: acquire X culture in Kiev in 1600 AD

    Core - Ukraine, Belarus, before Renaissance also NW Russia near Novgorod
    Historical - NW Russia, east of Black sea coast (Kuban and southern Volga), probably - Klyns (some regions on the Southern Siberia and Far East).

    Names: Rus' peoples, Grand Duchy of [Kiev|Novgorod|..], Ruthenia (after the Renaissance), Ruthenian Empire; Ukraine/Belarus (depends of the capital's location) after the respawn.

    So, current Russia:
    - spawns at the 1300 AD in the Moscow as `Muscovy peoples`, later Grand Duchy of Muscovy etc... At initial spawn doesn't flip anything, player needs to conquer core manually; if player selects Russia, Rus probably shouldn't spawn, only strong indepenent Kiev.
    - UU: Katyusha (earlier modern artillery) or T-34 (cheaper tank)
    - shift its core eastwards, to Volga region.
     
  9. MechatronicJazz

    MechatronicJazz Warlord

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    I believe Leo has plans to change how civ slots work in the mod, which will allow more civs to be added. Once that is done, I think a Turkic civ to fill the massive gap in central Asia is one of his first priorities. That said, I don't think there's a timeline for this yet.
     
  10. mccp77

    mccp77 Warlord

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    Why is that? The Turkic civs were all nomadic. I believe the Uighur Khanate was the first with a fixed capital, and they didn't rise until 900-ish AD.

    What are the other priorities?
     
  11. MechatronicJazz

    MechatronicJazz Warlord

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    Ask Leoreth? I'm not sure. It's come up a few times in various discussions.
     
  12. Theodorick

    Theodorick King

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    I think this is one of the places where gameplay necessity overtakes total historical accuracy. But I don't think Leoreth has ever tried to establish absolute historical accuracy anyways.
    A turkic civ would work well to full the massive void in central Asia. Playing much of the game with nothing there really ignores the reality that there was civilization there to trade, have diplomacy, and go to war with.
     
  13. mccp77

    mccp77 Warlord

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    Gokturk Khaganate-> Uighur Khaganate -> Kyrgyz Khaganate would be best. Rouran Khaganate doesn't appear based on linguistics to be Turkic. The issue then becomes that Ordu Baliq would be the historical capital, but it's a 46minute drive from Karakorum. Mongol spawn would kill the Turks, so they need to be collapsed by then. Also, if you add the Gokturks then you have 2 Central Asian civs. You probably need to add a Central Asian religion.

    I oppose the idea of a central asian civ as unnecessary bc we can add independent cities, so it's not necessary to abandon historicity. But just in case I'm overruled on that, my input is above.
     
  14. Auric

    Auric Chieftain

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    Celts are pretty much the only nation missing. I've been saying that for a long time. Hopefully they will appear in the next version.

    More Early-Slav cities could appear as barbarians though.
     
  15. Royal Tenenbaum

    Royal Tenenbaum Pacific Phytopathologist

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    If Marseilles ever goes Indie, it should respawn as the Monaco Civilization.
     
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  16. Zaduzai

    Zaduzai Warlord

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    Here is my list:
    - Iroquois Confederacy (or league)
    * spawn 1142 AD
    * would have devastating plague event triggered by fist contact of non American civilisation. Plague could kill half of population from cities and let's say 75% of ALL units (for example including Great People too). Death toll could be spread for several rounds (each round 10% die or some thing like that).
    * Independents and barbarians around it to make sure that it would be come too big before other civs contact it. Of course if human player is clever and lucky enough European civilisation could have nasty surprise when they would come claim "uninhabited" frontier land...
    - Burma (or I would rather use historically more accurate name Myanmar)
    * spawn some time between 167 BC - 900 AD dependent if you count Pagan as part of empire's history.
    I defiantly agree that South East Asia (Mainland) should be full of civilisations French, Thai, Khmer, etc. But it should have more resources especially rice resources. I think there should be two in core area of Thailand - with second one should spawn in 19th century (19th century Thailand farming industry multiplied already massive rice production which had world wide impact). Easiest solution would be removing that those marsh tiles at some point of 19th century. If remember right they are there anyway to block AI (China & Tibet?) settle certain areas.
    - Zulu empire (as only computer controlled civilisation)
    *spawn 1818 AD
    * respawn or changed if not collapsed South Africa

    Kievan Rus' would be nice addition as stand alone civilisation or "first" Russia. Kievan Rus' empire at its height was one of biggest empires in European history. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Kievan-rus-1015-1113-(en).png
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  17. mccp77

    mccp77 Warlord

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    please god no ......

    I've put alot of thought into this Zulu thing, and I don't think a Zulu spawn in the 1800s works, but we could spawn in the 1200s at Great Zimbabwe and then have them expand into Mutapa in the 1400s. Mutapa controlled enough territory to be a multi city civ.


    It could then be called "South Africa" on respawn.
     
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  18. EdmundIronside

    EdmundIronside Prince

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    10 civilizations that could possibly be added.

    Nation: Sumerians
    Spawn: 4000BC / 3000BC
    Pros: First great civilization

    Nation: Minoan
    Spawn: 2500BC
    Pros: Technologically advanced for their time

    Nation: Assyrians
    Spawn: 1750BC / 900BC
    Pros: Largest empire seen to date at this time

    Nation: Hittites
    Spawn: 1600BC
    Pros: Important regional rival to Egypt

    Nation: Olmecs
    Spawn: 1200BC
    Pros: First Mesoamerica civilization

    Nation: Israelites
    Spawn: 1150BC
    Pros: Important cultural and religious legacy. Regional rival for Phoenicians

    Nation: Bulgars
    Spawn: 680AD
    Pros: Notable early Balkan power

    Nation: Venetian Republic
    Spawn 700AD
    Pros: Most powerful Italian State and dominant in global trade for a long period

    Nation: Normans
    Spawn: 900AD
    Pros: Conquered England and Wales, and important regional power in France and Italy for a time.

    Nation: Manchu Dynasty
    Spawn: 1600AD
    Pros: Distinct from the other China Dynasty as not Han but rather Tungusic people led
     
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  19. IndisPC

    IndisPC Chieftain

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    It seems no one has suggested Belgium. Obviously there isn't enough room on the map for Brussels, however, one possibility is for Belgium to spawn in turn with the Netherlands. When the Dutch collapse, the Belgians can take control of Amsterdam and rename it Brussels.
    (Open to ideas here, I don't know Belgian history beyond reading Heart of Darkness)

    Spawn: 1830AD (contingent on Dutch stability)
    Unique Historical Objectives:
    -Heart of Darkness: Control 3 ivory resources by 1890
    -Leopold's Ambition: Establish or conquer a city on six continents by 1900
    -European Union: Have established defensive pacts with 7 European civilizations in 2000

    Unique Power:
    Power of the "Free State"
    +50 production in colonial cities, but -50% population growth

    Unique Unit:
    Force Publique
    Replaces Infantry, -33% production cost, strength of 17, can enter jungle
     
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  20. star15389

    star15389 Prince

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    Imo the peoples that really need to be represented are the southern Slavs. Really unfortunate that history there goes Roman -> Byzantine/HRE -> Ottoman/Austria with no medieval or industrial era native civs. Some serious gameplay difficulties both in terms of the map and coming up with distinct UHVs for as many as four different justifiable civs I admit but at least Serbia should be there
     

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