1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

What other Civs would you like to see added to DoC

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by AtlantaMarty, Apr 18, 2017.

  1. mccp77

    mccp77 Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    164
    Gender:
    Male
    I agree with everything posted above except for the final portion, so I just wanted to offer a counterpoint on the Central Asian civ issue. Until the Mongols, essentially every Central Asian empire was nomadic in nature but extracted tribute, money, goods, etc. from the oasis trading stations along the silk road. This seems better represented by ind. cities with occasional barbarian spawns.

    Then we get into the definition of a civilization in the mod as essentially "the story of a people/ethnic group/culture" etc., and until the 18th century most political polities in Central Asia derived their legitimacy from having rulers who were directly blood-related to Genghis Khan. Therefore, the first truly non-Mongolian peoples who we could insert into Central Asia would not arise until the 18th century, and the most important of those was Bukhara. But in the grand scheme of things Bukhara was never larger than one city and just not that important. On Central Asia, I think we should resist the urge to "fill the map" and instead encourage other civs such as the Persians, Iranians, Mughals, Chinese, and finally Russians to expand into the region. But since they already seem to do that in nearly if not all of my games (admittedly not more than 1/2 a dozen), I'd say just leave it the way it is. We shouldn't bend the rules of the mod to fill the map.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2017
  2. mccp77

    mccp77 Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    164
    Gender:
    Male
    there was no Mesopotamian civilization. Sumerian was a language isolate, and Sumerians were ethnically distinct from Babylonians/Akkadians/Amorites and Assyrians. Assyrians were ethnically distinct from Babylonians as they were a Semitic tribe that migrated to the area around 2100BC or about 200-300 years after the Babylonians/Akkadians/Amorites. If civilizations in this game are the stories of peoples/cultures/tribes then the Assyrians and Babylonians very much constitute separate and distinct peoples.

    Finally, the civ4 creators did most of the "making assyria" concept design for us. The babylonians didn't build gardens. The Assyrians did. Their UB is already in the generic game, and UHVs are easy: conquer and build the hanging gardens. And Assyria is already famous for its stone resources which it used to build its cities with (hint hint).

    This is what the Middle East should look like pre-Classical era. I apologize for the sizing being off. (Mitanni = no space/not long enough lasting, Hittite = barbarians who attack, Egypt doesn't have to conquer levant for gameplay reasons, but Nineveh and Babylon should be 2 squares away from each other, and the two civs should fight wars that Assyria should win bc Babylonia is too busy trying to reach its own culture based UHV goals.)

    upload_2017-4-29_14-48-46.png
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2017
    1SDAN, DKVM and Publicola like this.
  3. star15389

    star15389 Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2008
    Messages:
    476
    The England civ includes Anglo-Saxons, Normans, Highlanders, and Irish; Indoensian civ includes Malays, Javanese, Sundanese, hundreds of other minorities; Prussian civ includes Bavarians, Hannoverians, Saxons, Prussians, Hessians; Holy Roman civs includes all of that and Austrians, Hungarians, Slovaks, Croats, and Czechs. Not unusual for one civ to represent multiple states and ethnic groups. Wouldn't be opposed to changing one of Babylon's UHV conditions to represent the Assyrians, though. Maybe switch the third Egyptian condition with Babylon's most cultured city one; you can fulfill that one with conquest
     
    Kojinesha, Zaduzai and borhap88 like this.
  4. mccp77

    mccp77 Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    164
    Gender:
    Male
    Germany represents Germans; England represents the English who spread their power out from their core, and Indonesia represents a multiethnic empire w a Srivijayan and later Majapahit and finally Javanese core that came to control a thalassocratic empire; and the HRE clearly had an ethnic core of Germans with a broader identity built around religion and the legitimacy that bestowed. Being a multiethnic empire doesn't mean you don't have a national core. Not every nation in the world has a state, but every state pre-enligtenment (settler states are different) had a nation defined typically but not exclusively by ethnicity or tribe and often bound together by religion, language, and culture (those with whom one feels one shares a common fate) at its core. Many (all pre-1776) states in this scenario begin as representing a single nation when they appear in this scenario and then come to encompass multiethnic empires as that nation or tribe extend their power outward from a national core. This is getting a little bit too poli-sci-esk for civilization 4, but needless to say there are no "Mesopotamian peoples" outside of a geographic sense. There was a series of multiethnic empires in Mesopotamia with different ethnic cores from Akkadian to Elamite to Sumerian to Chaldean to Amorite to Assyrian and then back to Amorite before being conquered by the Persian empire with a core outside of Mesopotamia.

    Anyway, this might not be practical in-game, but the current situation is not ideal, and does not accurately reflect the importance of the Assyrians to world history as the single most important people of their time. Saying it's not practical in game makes alot more sense to me than saying that the ethnically Amorite Babylonians represent them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2017
  5. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    33,222
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Leblanc
    Just a quick note on the examples given here: I think we already have a very good case for splitting Indonesia into Malays and Javanese.
     
    1SDAN, Publicola and ales_ like this.
  6. Steb

    Steb King

    Joined:
    May 20, 2009
    Messages:
    686
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Montréal
    Of course all (or almost all) civs represent a number of ethnicities and states. And yes, in this game, there is no practical way of representing these ethnicities and states in any other way for most cases.

    The difference here is that Assyria was a state roughly on par with Babylonia, and with considerable importance in world history. The case of Prussia/modern Germany and medieval Germany/Austria is informative: they used to be represented by the same civ, which makes sense in a cultural/linguistic view, but then it was decided to split them in two, presumably at least partly because Germany and Austria have both been states of simultaneous comparable importance. I'd say Greece is a case in which we can really say that several distinct important states (Athens, Sparta, Macedonia) are merged; I think that's fine for Greece because the map really doesn't have enough resolution to have rival city-states in the Greek peninsula, and Macedonia's time frame is much too short.

    Thinking about this some more, I realized my main reason for wanting Assyria really is gameplay. Try a Babylon game: nothing happens in Mesopotamia. You just grow your city and interact with external threats or targets. I think having two rival civs in the area would be much more fun (and I don't think compromise solutions like having one or the other in any given game would add that much). I also think 3000 BCE civs are great: I like to play the beginning of history.

    Having a single-city Mesopotamia also gives a very wrong picture of the history of an important period. That's a weaker argument because DoC is not a history course, but it's an argument nonetheless. (I sure did learn a lot playing it.)
     
    1SDAN, Zaduzai, Imp. Knoedel and 2 others like this.
  7. inthesomeday

    inthesomeday Immortan

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,798
    But if you add Assyria some jerk named inthesomeday will demand they get a modern respawn as Syria
     
  8. mccp77

    mccp77 Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    164
    Gender:
    Male
    LoL that guy sounds horrible
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2017
  9. Royal Tenenbaum

    Royal Tenenbaum Pacific Phytopathologist

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2012
    Messages:
    2,737
    I'm a fan of adding a lot more classical civilizations, that are maybe minor like Polynesia. Maybe ones that would only show up on Marathon.

    Minoan Civilization. Production bonus from seafood resources. A civilization in a great position to be the diplomatic mediator and occasional pillager of the Mediterranean. A good powerhouse of culture, and limited by its lack of stable land. In later years, they would morph into... umm... Malta.
     
  10. mccp77

    mccp77 Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    164
    Gender:
    Male
    Sounds like a great case for adding an independent city to crete.
     
  11. Nyayr

    Nyayr Warlord

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    277
    Location:
    Holland
    Minoan would be stuck on crete, which makes it a little hard to do anything with one city. Maybe they could go to Cyprus? Though...

    Assyria and Hittites (I'd prefer to see the Hittites, big rivals of egypt), can work though Phoenicia will have a hard time as chance is they will lose their begin core even quicker, so they would need a tweak as well.

    *A very logical thing would be the sioux nation perhaps settling Central North America, unsure what year that might be. Would make some resources appear earlier there and make it a little harder for the France especially and secondary the English, Spanish and ofcourse later the USA. Maybe with a talent at working plains more efficient for food +1 and maybe production as well +1. Or a bonus on pasture (cow, pig...), it is a big area there and besides the Aztec there isn't anything in North America.

    As For Africa the Zulus could be workable, though hard since it appears in the 1800's and then the English and Dutch have a strong foothold already... They can be like the celts that appear, in rome time, an extra group to handle, would mean they would be better then an impi for sure... The Zimbabwan kingdom (1200-1450) is also an option for Africa.
     
  12. Ani Taneen

    Ani Taneen Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2015
    Messages:
    273
    Those who'd argue for a Minoan civ may be better served by arguing for an earlier Greek spawn and a gameplay that looks like this:
    Minoan> Mycenaean> Archaic> Classical> Macedonian
     
    1SDAN and Cosmos1985 like this.
  13. mccp77

    mccp77 Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    164
    Gender:
    Male
    Assyrians were historically more significant than Hitties.

    Sioux never had large cities.

    Maybe add a barbarian Great Zimbabwe/Ulundi?
     
  14. Rorgloin

    Rorgloin Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2013
    Messages:
    132
    I agree that Assyria would make an excellent addition. It would almost certainly require some minor redesign for Mesopotamia, but that is a hugely significant area in world history and would make the ancient game much more interesting. As it currently stands, Babylon doesn't have any real threats until they get curbstomped by the Persians.
     
  15. rmontaruli

    rmontaruli Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2002
    Messages:
    184
    Location:
    Italy
    May i ask for Italy in 1700AD start?

    Starting spot in Turin. (duchy of Savoy)
    With an indipendent Cagliari that will flip (kingdom of Sardinia)
    Starting army with 2 ironclad, 1 great general (Giuseppe Garibaldi) and some Bersaglieri, to conquest Sicily.

    And change 3rd UHV, adding conquest of Ethiopia in 1930.
     
  16. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    33,222
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Leblanc
    Do you want them to start as the Duchy of Savoy in 1700?

    Later spawn dates are unfortunately impossible right now.
     
  17. Baur

    Baur Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2016
    Messages:
    65
    I think if independent states could have names it will be more fun: Syria, Israel, Iraq, Ukraine, Haiti, Cuba and etc.
     
    1SDAN likes this.
  18. mccp77

    mccp77 Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    164
    Gender:
    Male
    Off topic -- I think a modern mod mod would be cool for this.
     
  19. Theodorick

    Theodorick King

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2006
    Messages:
    624
    Something more should be added to Eastern Europe, like Lithuania, Novgorod, and even The Golden Horde, since Russia gets really nothing to push against except maybe Poland, when in reality Russia was at war almost constantly just to expand.

    Oh, also I'd love to see something done about Teotihaucan. It was not only one of the largest city in the WORLD for centuries, but it's easily the most influential city in the pre-Columbian Americas. It isn't even shown, at all. That area is completely empty when easily the biggest city in the Americas at its height should be there. Instead there's a pretty useless city just south of it, that nobody has heard of, and is only there to annoy and slow down the Mayans. A powerful native Teotihaucan would be way more interesting in that place.
     
  20. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2009
    Messages:
    33,222
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Leblanc
    I'm pretty sure people have heard of Monte Alban.
     

Share This Page