What other Civs would you like to see added to DoC

I'd like to chime in in support of Assyria. As I see it, Ancient Mesopotamia is the most oversimplified area-period of the mod. While there were four major powers in the region—Sumer, Akkad, Babylon, Assyria—only one (Babylon) or two (if you consider Akkad to be represented by early Babylon) are represented by a civ generally consisting of a single large city that occasionally conquers neighboring states (Shush, Jerusalem). The warfare and shifting geopolitics of Mesopotamia are basically absent.

Of course, the constraints on both area and time are extreme. I don't think Sumer can be done at all—it stopped existing as an independent entity around 2000 BCE, "only" a thousand years after the start of the game, and had previously been part of the Akkadian Empire for a while anyway. At most, an independent city could exist in southern Mesopotamia for Babylon/Akkad to conquer. Or, if the Babylonian capital is for some reason built at Ur or Uruk, the civ could get "Sumerian Empire" as its dynamic name.

On the other hand, I think Assyria has a convincing case. What I would do is spawn both Assyria and Babylon (representing Akkad early on) in 3000 BCE. The cities of Babylon and Assur would be very close—perhaps separated by a single tile—and that would make it fairly likely that one would conquer the other, representing the unification of Mesopotamia as your choice of the Akkadian, Neo-Babylonian, or Neo-Assyrian Empire. If one conquers the other early on, a respawn should be possible if the conqueror becomes unstable. Uneasy coexistence would also be a strong possibility. The warfare/instability would make both regions less likely to successfully defend against Persian, Greek or Roman conquerors (compared to a Babylon that currently has not much else to do than to fortify their single mega-city).

I don't think time is that much of a constraint if both civs spawn in 3000 BCE and have historical periods stretching to the 600s and 500s BCE. Space is the main issue. On the current map, Assur would most likely be 1N of Babylon, though you could also place it on the hill 1N of that (if not, that tile would be Nineveh). Babylon itself could be moved 1S, I think. The Euphrates could be diverted to keep flowing south of the city. This would make the area between the rivers oversized, but I think it's fine to enlarge important areas, especially if it's at the expense of the Arabian desert. A map change is not strictly necessary, however.

Gameplay-wise, Assyria would be fun and unique in itself—the mod lacks a pre-Classical civ focused on military conquest. It would also make the game of Babylon and basically every other surrounding civ more exciting. A human Babylon would probably want to conquer Assur as soon as possible, but building a strong enough military would come at the expense of more UHV-focused stuff, making for interesting tradeoffs.

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About other civ additions, I personally have a soft spot for Sweden, which would make both an oversized Viking civ and a Scandinavia full of independents less common. It would also have a different focus than the Vikings/Denmark-Norway, which are more about early Viking raids, invasions and travels, while Sweden would shine more in the Early Modern period. It should spawn in the 11th or 12th century.

A Central Asian civ is also a necessity, but my knowledge on the matter is not sufficient to comment further. (Not to mention that I don't think any convincing actually needs to be done.)

I agree with everything posted above except for the final portion, so I just wanted to offer a counterpoint on the Central Asian civ issue. Until the Mongols, essentially every Central Asian empire was nomadic in nature but extracted tribute, money, goods, etc. from the oasis trading stations along the silk road. This seems better represented by ind. cities with occasional barbarian spawns.

Then we get into the definition of a civilization in the mod as essentially "the story of a people/ethnic group/culture" etc., and until the 18th century most political polities in Central Asia derived their legitimacy from having rulers who were directly blood-related to Genghis Khan. Therefore, the first truly non-Mongolian peoples who we could insert into Central Asia would not arise until the 18th century, and the most important of those was Bukhara. But in the grand scheme of things Bukhara was never larger than one city and just not that important. On Central Asia, I think we should resist the urge to "fill the map" and instead encourage other civs such as the Persians, Iranians, Mughals, Chinese, and finally Russians to expand into the region. But since they already seem to do that in nearly if not all of my games (admittedly not more than 1/2 a dozen), I'd say just leave it the way it is. We shouldn't bend the rules of the mod to fill the map.
 
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I really don't think Assyria merits adding as a separate civ. Babylonia already adequately represents the Ancient Mesopotamian civilization.
there was no Mesopotamian civilization. Sumerian was a language isolate, and Sumerians were ethnically distinct from Babylonians/Akkadians/Amorites and Assyrians. Assyrians were ethnically distinct from Babylonians as they were a Semitic tribe that migrated to the area around 2100BC or about 200-300 years after the Babylonians/Akkadians/Amorites. If civilizations in this game are the stories of peoples/cultures/tribes then the Assyrians and Babylonians very much constitute separate and distinct peoples.

Finally, the civ4 creators did most of the "making assyria" concept design for us. The babylonians didn't build gardens. The Assyrians did. Their UB is already in the generic game, and UHVs are easy: conquer and build the hanging gardens. And Assyria is already famous for its stone resources which it used to build its cities with (hint hint).

This is what the Middle East should look like pre-Classical era. I apologize for the sizing being off. (Mitanni = no space/not long enough lasting, Hittite = barbarians who attack, Egypt doesn't have to conquer levant for gameplay reasons, but Nineveh and Babylon should be 2 squares away from each other, and the two civs should fight wars that Assyria should win bc Babylonia is too busy trying to reach its own culture based UHV goals.)

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The England civ includes Anglo-Saxons, Normans, Highlanders, and Irish; Indoensian civ includes Malays, Javanese, Sundanese, hundreds of other minorities; Prussian civ includes Bavarians, Hannoverians, Saxons, Prussians, Hessians; Holy Roman civs includes all of that and Austrians, Hungarians, Slovaks, Croats, and Czechs. Not unusual for one civ to represent multiple states and ethnic groups. Wouldn't be opposed to changing one of Babylon's UHV conditions to represent the Assyrians, though. Maybe switch the third Egyptian condition with Babylon's most cultured city one; you can fulfill that one with conquest
 
Germany represents Germans; England represents the English who spread their power out from their core, and Indonesia represents a multiethnic empire w a Srivijayan and later Majapahit and finally Javanese core that came to control a thalassocratic empire; and the HRE clearly had an ethnic core of Germans with a broader identity built around religion and the legitimacy that bestowed. Being a multiethnic empire doesn't mean you don't have a national core. Not every nation in the world has a state, but every state pre-enligtenment (settler states are different) had a nation defined typically but not exclusively by ethnicity or tribe and often bound together by religion, language, and culture (those with whom one feels one shares a common fate) at its core. Many (all pre-1776) states in this scenario begin as representing a single nation when they appear in this scenario and then come to encompass multiethnic empires as that nation or tribe extend their power outward from a national core. This is getting a little bit too poli-sci-esk for civilization 4, but needless to say there are no "Mesopotamian peoples" outside of a geographic sense. There was a series of multiethnic empires in Mesopotamia with different ethnic cores from Akkadian to Elamite to Sumerian to Chaldean to Amorite to Assyrian and then back to Amorite before being conquered by the Persian empire with a core outside of Mesopotamia.

Anyway, this might not be practical in-game, but the current situation is not ideal, and does not accurately reflect the importance of the Assyrians to world history as the single most important people of their time. Saying it's not practical in game makes alot more sense to me than saying that the ethnically Amorite Babylonians represent them.
 
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Just a quick note on the examples given here: I think we already have a very good case for splitting Indonesia into Malays and Javanese.
 
The England civ includes Anglo-Saxons, Normans, Highlanders, and Irish; Indoensian civ includes Malays, Javanese, Sundanese, hundreds of other minorities; Prussian civ includes Bavarians, Hannoverians, Saxons, Prussians, Hessians; Holy Roman civs includes all of that and Austrians, Hungarians, Slovaks, Croats, and Czechs. Not unusual for one civ to represent multiple states and ethnic groups. Wouldn't be opposed to changing one of Babylon's UHV conditions to represent the Assyrians, though. Maybe switch the third Egyptian condition with Babylon's most cultured city one; you can fulfill that one with conquest

Of course all (or almost all) civs represent a number of ethnicities and states. And yes, in this game, there is no practical way of representing these ethnicities and states in any other way for most cases.

The difference here is that Assyria was a state roughly on par with Babylonia, and with considerable importance in world history. The case of Prussia/modern Germany and medieval Germany/Austria is informative: they used to be represented by the same civ, which makes sense in a cultural/linguistic view, but then it was decided to split them in two, presumably at least partly because Germany and Austria have both been states of simultaneous comparable importance. I'd say Greece is a case in which we can really say that several distinct important states (Athens, Sparta, Macedonia) are merged; I think that's fine for Greece because the map really doesn't have enough resolution to have rival city-states in the Greek peninsula, and Macedonia's time frame is much too short.

Thinking about this some more, I realized my main reason for wanting Assyria really is gameplay. Try a Babylon game: nothing happens in Mesopotamia. You just grow your city and interact with external threats or targets. I think having two rival civs in the area would be much more fun (and I don't think compromise solutions like having one or the other in any given game would add that much). I also think 3000 BCE civs are great: I like to play the beginning of history.

Having a single-city Mesopotamia also gives a very wrong picture of the history of an important period. That's a weaker argument because DoC is not a history course, but it's an argument nonetheless. (I sure did learn a lot playing it.)
 
But if you add Assyria some jerk named inthesomeday will demand they get a modern respawn as Syria
 
I'm a fan of adding a lot more classical civilizations, that are maybe minor like Polynesia. Maybe ones that would only show up on Marathon.

Minoan Civilization. Production bonus from seafood resources. A civilization in a great position to be the diplomatic mediator and occasional pillager of the Mediterranean. A good powerhouse of culture, and limited by its lack of stable land. In later years, they would morph into... umm... Malta.
 
I'm a fan of adding a lot more classical civilizations, that are maybe minor like Polynesia. Maybe ones that would only show up on Marathon.

Minoan Civilization. Production bonus from seafood resources. A civilization in a great position to be the diplomatic mediator and occasional pillager of the Mediterranean. A good powerhouse of culture, and limited by its lack of stable land. In later years, they would morph into... umm... Malta.
Sounds like a great case for adding an independent city to crete.
 
Minoan would be stuck on crete, which makes it a little hard to do anything with one city. Maybe they could go to Cyprus? Though...

Assyria and Hittites (I'd prefer to see the Hittites, big rivals of egypt), can work though Phoenicia will have a hard time as chance is they will lose their begin core even quicker, so they would need a tweak as well.

*A very logical thing would be the sioux nation perhaps settling Central North America, unsure what year that might be. Would make some resources appear earlier there and make it a little harder for the France especially and secondary the English, Spanish and ofcourse later the USA. Maybe with a talent at working plains more efficient for food +1 and maybe production as well +1. Or a bonus on pasture (cow, pig...), it is a big area there and besides the Aztec there isn't anything in North America.

As For Africa the Zulus could be workable, though hard since it appears in the 1800's and then the English and Dutch have a strong foothold already... They can be like the celts that appear, in rome time, an extra group to handle, would mean they would be better then an impi for sure... The Zimbabwan kingdom (1200-1450) is also an option for Africa.
 
Minoan Civilization. Production bonus from seafood resources. A civilization in a great position to be the diplomatic mediator and occasional pillager of the Mediterranean. A good powerhouse of culture, and limited by its lack of stable land. In later years, they would morph into... umm... Malta.

Minoan would be stuck on crete, which makes it a little hard to do anything with one city. Maybe they could go to Cyprus? Though...

Those who'd argue for a Minoan civ may be better served by arguing for an earlier Greek spawn and a gameplay that looks like this:
Minoan> Mycenaean> Archaic> Classical> Macedonian
 
Minoan would be stuck on crete, which makes it a little hard to do anything with one city. Maybe they could go to Cyprus? Though...

Assyria and Hittites (I'd prefer to see the Hittites, big rivals of egypt), can work though Phoenicia will have a hard time as chance is they will lose their begin core even quicker, so they would need a tweak as well.

*A very logical thing would be the sioux nation perhaps settling Central North America, unsure what year that might be. Would make some resources appear earlier there and make it a little harder for the France especially and secondary the English, Spanish and ofcourse later the USA. Maybe with a talent at working plains more efficient for food +1 and maybe production as well +1. Or a bonus on pasture (cow, pig...), it is a big area there and besides the Aztec there isn't anything in North America.

As For Africa the Zulus could be workable, though hard since it appears in the 1800's and then the English and Dutch have a strong foothold already... They can be like the celts that appear, in rome time, an extra group to handle, would mean they would be better then an impi for sure... The Zimbabwan kingdom (1200-1450) is also an option for Africa.
Assyrians were historically more significant than Hitties.

Sioux never had large cities.

Maybe add a barbarian Great Zimbabwe/Ulundi?
 
I agree that Assyria would make an excellent addition. It would almost certainly require some minor redesign for Mesopotamia, but that is a hugely significant area in world history and would make the ancient game much more interesting. As it currently stands, Babylon doesn't have any real threats until they get curbstomped by the Persians.
 
May i ask for Italy in 1700AD start?

Starting spot in Turin. (duchy of Savoy)
With an indipendent Cagliari that will flip (kingdom of Sardinia)
Starting army with 2 ironclad, 1 great general (Giuseppe Garibaldi) and some Bersaglieri, to conquest Sicily.

And change 3rd UHV, adding conquest of Ethiopia in 1930.
 
Do you want them to start as the Duchy of Savoy in 1700?

Later spawn dates are unfortunately impossible right now.
 
I think if independent states could have names it will be more fun: Syria, Israel, Iraq, Ukraine, Haiti, Cuba and etc.
 
Something more should be added to Eastern Europe, like Lithuania, Novgorod, and even The Golden Horde, since Russia gets really nothing to push against except maybe Poland, when in reality Russia was at war almost constantly just to expand.

Oh, also I'd love to see something done about Teotihaucan. It was not only one of the largest city in the WORLD for centuries, but it's easily the most influential city in the pre-Columbian Americas. It isn't even shown, at all. That area is completely empty when easily the biggest city in the Americas at its height should be there. Instead there's a pretty useless city just south of it, that nobody has heard of, and is only there to annoy and slow down the Mayans. A powerful native Teotihaucan would be way more interesting in that place.
 
I'm pretty sure people have heard of Monte Alban.
 
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