What's so bad about not having democracy?

This is very telling, isn't it? You have no idea what you're talking about. The minute I ask you to back up your wild claims, you can't do it, because you're just making stuff up.
Which claim I "made up"? That East German economy development was affected by Soviet reparations?
Seriously? :)

Also, if growth rates are all that matter, Nauru beats China.
Nope, the growth from ~3% to ~16% of worlds GDP in 30 years is unmatched by any country.
Even Nauru can't compete with this, with all due respect :)
 
Which claim I "made up"? That East German economy development was affected by Soviet reparations?
Seriously? :)
You have never ever provided any data that would prove the magnitude of this effect. I'm guessing it's because you don't understand what you're talking about.
Nope, the growth from ~3% to ~16% of worlds GDP in 30 years is unmatched by any country.
Even Nauru can't compete with this, with all due respect :)
Past 10 years, Nauru beats China. So I guess China just isn't effective anymore :^)
 
You have never ever provided any data that would prove the magnitude of this effect.
Dude, you are lying. I gave you a link to read about it. Just like you did below.
You didn't read it, but it wasn't my fault.

Past 10 years, Nauru beats China. So I guess China just isn't effective anymore :^)
That's impressive! Didn't know they've built 10 palm huts instead of 5. China must be humiliated.
 
Dude, you are lying. I gave you a link to read about it. Just like you did below.
You didn't read it, but it wasn't my fault.
It wasn't there. Even your own link doesn't corroborate you. It's just further proof that you're clueless.
That's impressive! Didn't know they've built 10 palm huts instead of 5. China must be humiliated.
Yeah, it's almost like growth rate is a meaningless metric, because impressive percentage growth is easy when you're starting from zero. Wow who would have thunk it?
 
You didn't read it, then.
Prove it.
Growth rate itself is meaningless, growth from 3% to 16% of world's GDP is very meaningful.
But I'm not saying anything against Nauru, a beacon of worlds democracy and a shining example of effective government :)
Like I said, it's easy to grow when you start from zero. China is still poor
 
Prove it.
So, you are saying my link doesn't contain the number in dollars, paid by Eastern Germany as reparations to the USSR?
If I rub your nose in it, will you admit you were lying?
Or you'll say it's not the number you were asking for? :)

Like I said, it's easy to grow when you start from zero. China is still poor
At least it indicates government effectiveness more than raw GDP numbers. But Nauru example is priceless, thank you for a good laugh :)
 
So, you are saying my link doesn't contain the number in dollars, paid by Eastern Germany as reparations to the USSR?
If I rub your nose in it, will you admit you were lying?
Or you'll say it's not the number you were asking for? :)
Oh I would be extremely happy if you could finally provide the number that I have been asking for the past 10 posts. Please, go ahead. Give it to me
At least it indicates government effectiveness more than raw GDP numbers. But Nauru example is priceless, thank you for a good laugh :)
Yeah, so clearly the government of Nauru is the envy of the world. Such growth, really indicates government effectiveness. Looks like you got blown out of the water, again.
 
Oh I would be extremely happy if you could finally provide the number that I have been asking for the past 10 posts. Please, go ahead. Give it to me
Only if you admit that you were lying. When you said "it wasn't there"

Yeah, so clearly the government of Nauru is the envy of the world. Such growth, really indicates government effectiveness.
Well, it was you who said "democracy wins again", when Nauru was compared with China.
 
I'm sure this conversation is very witty, but it's really hard to follow with both of you not having an avatar.

Why do you not have the decency to help us more visual-minded people follow along?
 
Then look it up yourself. It's there. The keyword for search in the article is "paid".
Ok, so then I'm sure you'll find it easily. Go ahead, fetch it for us.
 
Moderator Action: Calling people clueless or liars is not acceptable at CFC. Tone down the rhetoric, please, and perhaps consider taking such back-and-forth conversations to PM.
 
It is clear that this is going nowhere. The fact that such claims cannot be enumerated or sourced in any way speaks volumes about their veracity. And until sources are provided, I'll leave it at that. For the rest, I guess we'll just have to respectfully disagree.
 
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Economy has a life on her own, regardless what kind of political system, it took influence on everything throughout history.
The problem I see with this economy power, changing in nature, having the initiative by new techs, is that it can easily disrupt individual and small group values (morals, traditions, all that immaterial happyness stuff).
Weak moments of a state system lead imo always to periods of negative side effects in the human society.

If more GDP and a higher rate of GDP growth is predominantly plowed back to more GDP growth only, you face more collateral disruption in the binding happiness values of a society.
Around 1850 was such a period, and we live I think since the 80ies last century again in such a period.
The remedy is I think to use more of our GDP and GDP growth to the soft human factors.
Democracy is as such a good system.
But looking back, good grassroot movements, as reaction on (like unions, cooperations, etc) and founded on older social binding traditions (like compassion, help your neighbor, etc) werre imo much more important as protection, the democracy just giving the formal blessing.
 
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@innonimatu Neither the fact that you are unhappy with choices made within this particular piece of law nor the fact that those choices reflect concerns of business lobby nor the fact that this limits national legislation does not change that this whole issue would not/did not exist in pre-digital world...

The digital world is here already, and the legislation to deal with it already existed. This new legislation was unnecessary for the common citizen. It came about through the pressure of certain business groups. And it imposes big costs on other businesses (the smaller ones) thus having the effect of erecting a "barrier to entry". Much of it is fluff, but already there is an industry of consultants scaremongering and ready to sell "compliance with the new regulation". The big businesses will put their existing legal departments into this task and be done with it, the smaller ones will have to spend comparatively a much larger fraction of their resources just to understand what the whole thing is about.

I've seen this before. Also with national legislation, so don't thing I'm complaining because of my aversion to the EU. What I'm complaining about is how often legislative processes get taken over by business lobbies under technocratic excuses. That the EU is particularly offensive at doing this is a consequence of its profound lack of democratic oversight (back-room deals and lack of input from elected representatives answerable to interested voters is the norm there), but it happens in national and possibly even local legislative work too. It's just that the closer that work remains to the affected population, the easier it is that the intended targets will notice it and block or overturn the thing.
 
Indeed, which country's economy is run more effectively last decades? :lol:

I prefer this chart
Jokes aside Russias GDPPP is higher then China

052517-RussiaGDP-digital.png
 
It can be appointed different ways, the only thing which is IMO important is that people trust it. Let's say it is selected from pool of candidates with strict requirements to pass. By some figurehead or AI, whatever.
Why should people trust someone or something that is not answerable to them, not even in theory?
The one who selects won't have much power anyway, it would rather be a position with a lot of responsibility.
You're kidding. Кадры решают все! And by extension, he who appoints the personnel, pulls all strings.
The digital world is here already, and the legislation to deal with it already existed.
The new data protection package replaced a directive from 1995. Do you remember how very digital the world was in 1995? :)
EDIT: Worth a trip down the memory lane:
http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2013/05/the-15-best-gadgets-from-1995
This new legislation was unnecessary for the common citizen. It came about through the pressure of certain business groups. And it imposes big costs on other businesses (the smaller ones) thus having the effect of erecting a "barrier to entry". Much of it is fluff, but already there is an industry of consultants scaremongering and ready to sell "compliance with the new regulation". The big businesses will put their existing legal departments into this task and be done with it, the smaller ones will have to spend comparatively a much larger fraction of their resources just to understand what the whole thing is about.

I've seen this before. Also with national legislation, so don't thing I'm complaining because of my aversion to the EU. What I'm complaining about is how often legislative processes get taken over by business lobbies under technocratic excuses. That the EU is particularly offensive at doing this is a consequence of its profound lack of democratic oversight (back-room deals and lack of input from elected representatives answerable to interested voters is the norm there), but it happens in national and possibly even local legislative work too. It's just that the closer that work remains to the affected population, the easier it is that the intended targets will notice it and block or overturn the thing.
I'm ill-equipped to make an informed argument about how useful this new legislation is to the common citizen... like 99,99% of other citizens, I'm afraid. This is symptomatic of the problem today's democracies face.
However, I think you are overstating the power of business lobby, nor do I agree with "lack of democratic oversight". EU legislation represents a compromise between governments of 28 Member States (democratically elected) and the EP (also democratically elected). Indeed I look at every such compromise with awe, because reaching one is a small miracle in its own right. With regards to this particular regulation, the Commission is required to submit a public report on the evaluation and review to both EP and the Council in every four years. If this isn't enough democratic oversight for you, then we're screwed. Because I can't see how any more could be injected. Yes, you could take decision-making closer to "the people", back to national or even local level. But don't confuse ability to pass laws with ability to actually enforce them. How well do you think your national government (or mine) could enforce its national data protection rules against Google, Amazon, Facebook or Alibaba? That's right, they wouldn't even bother to lobby. I'm naming giants, but it's not like smaller companies from third countries would have any reason whatsoever to comply either. This is why people who talk about "taking back sovereignty" are bloody delusional fools. The EU as a whole just might have enough hard and soft power to make a difference though.
 
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