When is it moral to eat meat? (with poll this time)

[Narz]

@ Narz . How where you "converted" to vegetarianism ?

Well I started getting bad stomach cramps in my early twenties. Mostly due to food allergies, stress & overeating (I wasn't fat but like many skinny young men I prided myself on being able to pack in tons & tons of food without any ill effects but eventually it caught up with me, not in weight gain but in digestive troubles).

So I switched my diet around all sorts of ways (first cutting out wheat & dairy which helped a little). In 2003 I discovered "raw-foodism" which sounded practical & somewhat common-sensical to me (no other creature besides man cooks and science shows all cooking creates at least some nutrient loss [though certain vegetables have certain nutrients become more bioavailable thru cooking]). So I got into that but was still eating meat (beef tartare for a few months) but I didn't feel great eating raw meat (never got sick but I didn't feel super sharp eating it) so I gave it up. The book, Fit for Life pushed me over the edge from meat eater to pure vegan & I stayed mostly vegan (and 100% vegetarian) for about three years. A year ago I started eating goat's cheese again & about six months ago I started having fish when I felt like it & free range chicken once or twice. I don't indulge very much though both for moral reasons & due to cost (quality meat is expensive). That's my journey in a nutshell. There is some 2002 thread where I profess my enjoyment of meat & poke a few holes in various vegetarian defenses but, while I still believe (not believe, know really, after having hung out with fundy vegans on various other forums) many are unsound there are many valid reasons (especially in this day & age) to choose that path. I'm only about 50-60% "raw" (percentage of raw food vs. cooked) these days as I enjoy the variety & dislike the social issues involved with having a restricted diet (especially as a male). Of course I still consider what I eat based on what I've learned over the years but it's gotten to be pretty effortless now, gotten into my "muscle memory" so to speak.

 

[PeteAtoms]

i'm just waiting for the day when they start passing out soylent green...
(was soylent green considered meat? or soy?)

 

[Taras Bulba]

I like meat.... I vote yes (as long as its not people)

 

[Bigfoot3814]

What is "chicken-fried steak" anyway? Looks like bad chicken nuggets to me.

Chicken-fried steak is much like it sounds it would be. It's a beef steak that has been breaded or floured and pan-fried in much the same manner chicken is. You might know it by the name pan-fried steak or suthun'-fried steak (yes, you have to say it that way). It is quite delicious.

I know people like their ribs blackened but I never understood it myself. I always liked my meat rare or at most, medium rare. I figure if you like the taste of meat best to eat it when it has the most taste (in the rare to medium range) but that's just my personal taste.

A true BBQer knows how to properly cook meat while preserving all the flavors and juices on the inside. I have most of my meat medium. The outside charred and the inside pink and tender. I'm also a big fan of sauces. Also, you really have to cook your poultry all the way through. Otherwise it's like bird-flavored jello. Not good.

I still love the smell of Subway's (not the ones with train-cars ) but I've miraculously managed to disconnect my olfactory enjoyment from my craving to taste, at least when it comes to fast food.

Let me make one thing very clear. The meat I'm talking about, the kind I can get this passionate about, is by no means fast food. Aside from what's cooked and served in my own house, I'm talking about places like The Village Luncheonette, Chicken Joe's, and Tony's Deli. These places have people who have spent most of their lives doing nothing but frying, roasting, smoking, cutting and BBQing meats. They are masters. Artists, I'd so boldly say. Please don't confuse this with Burger King.

I never did get that. Even when I was a kid I never really understood the whole "ewww, I hate anything healthy" attitude that the sugary cereal companies tried to promote.

I don't hate anything healthy. In fact, I'm a big fan of peas, carrots, corn, and broccoli for crying out loud. I enjoy meat the same way a lot of people enjoy ice cream, or chocolate, or cake and pie. It's a treat, but it's a treat that's meant to be enjoyed! And you get to do it 3 meals a day! OK buddy?

 

[Narz]

Etymologically, Morality has nothing to do with what is right or wrong, only with customs (either personal habits or traditions). Therefore, eating meat is moral when you and/or your society are use to eating meat.

Moral relativism?

I don't think health really matters.

I imagine you're between 13 and 25, am I right?

I don't think health really matters. I'm sure that I could find something healthier then pork and I'm sure I'd be healthier without smoking; but you took a decision: you like that and you accept the consequences(or should, anyway - suing the tobacco company is really ridiculous). Don't think it has anything to do with morals.

I'm talking about morals on behalf of the user, not the seller. That's another discussion.

Morality wise, it's only a problem of ecological impact and frankly as long as our numbers vastly increase, the ecology will suffer.

Would make more sense to ask if it's moral to have children imho...

I agree that the population issue is definitely an important one but the ecological impact per capita is also worth discussing.

Chicken-fried steak is much like it sounds it would be. It's a beef steak that has been breaded or floured and pan-fried in much the same manner chicken is. You might know it by the name pan-fried steak or suthun'-fried steak (yes, you have to say it that way). It is quite delicious.

Ok, I've actually never had chicken-fried steak.

A true BBQer knows how to properly cook meat while preserving all the flavors and juices on the inside. I have most of my meat medium. The outside charred and the inside pink and tender. I'm also a big fan of sauces. Also, you really have to cook your poultry all the way through. Otherwise it's like bird-flavored jello. Not good.

Ugh, yeah, when I was on my raw-paleo kick I tried raw chicken.

I just don't like any char, just my thing. I love the pink tenderness though.

Let me make one thing very clear. The meat I'm talking about, the kind I can get this passionate about, is by no means fast food. Aside from what's cooked and served in my own house, I'm talking about places like The Village Luncheonette, Chicken Joe's, and Tony's Deli. These places have people who have spent most of their lives doing nothing but frying, roasting, smoking, cutting and BBQing meats. They are masters. Artists, I'd so boldly say. Please don't confuse this with Burger King.

Don't worry, I don't. And I can understand why people who've been working with meat their whole lives & tried to make an art of it might not want to hear about ecological & moral concerns with their labor of love. Nevertheless, I do think such concerns are important to consider (even if you allow yourself leeway for your own pleasure).

I don't hate anything healthy. In fact, I'm a big fan of peas, carrots, corn, and broccoli for crying out loud. I enjoy meat the same way a lot of people enjoy ice cream, or chocolate, or cake and pie. It's a treat, but it's a treat that's meant to be enjoyed! And you get to do it 3 meals a day! OK buddy?

It will have to be ok with me, won't it? I'm not the boss of you.

Three meaty meals a day strikes me as a bit overkillish (no pun intended) but if it's working for now, go with it I guess.

 

[Bigfoot3814]

Arright, the matter is settled. I love these discussions! Lets have one every day.

Also, somehow snowlywhite got credit for a lot of the stuff I said.

 

[Narz]

opps, I'll edit that.

 

[DNK]

I find meat eating to be cheaper and easier than shopping around for meat substitutes

Beans and rice aren't very difficult or expensive.

When it becomes cheap enough to feed the masses of society with vegetarian diets the rest of your reasons will become immoral. We aren't a the point yet that we can eliminate meat from our diets and maintain a healthy lifestyle.

It already is cheap enough. It's cheaper. I think it might even be cheaper with the subsidies, but it is certainly cheaper without them. Meat production is an incredibly inefficient form of making food. Months and years of feeding an animal a vegetarian diet so it can be killed to feed someone will always be more expensive than just feeding someone that vegetarian diet in the first place. The numbers are something like 6:1 for cows and something much larger for chickens (20:1 maybe), in terms of caloric production.

And your second point... there are a lot of people that would disagree with you.

 

[Pannonius]

Meat is very important to me. But I would never eat dog or a horse.

 

[Bill3000]

Meat is very important to me. But I would never eat dog or a horse.

You live in Europe. Why not a horse?

Anyway, regarding to the OP, animals are fundamentally property, so they don't have a right to life any more than my computer has a right to life. The most that can be done is mitigating suffering.

 

[ComradeDavo]

As a vegetarian first thing that springs to mind when I see this thread is 'ARGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!'

It's threads like this which understandably get all the meat eaters annoyed at what they see as vegetarians thinking themselves 'morally superior'.

My personal opinion is that eating meat is not a moral issue, and should not be treated as one.

It's a personal choice. Personally, I see no need for myself to eat meat, and thus think we should let animals be and co-exist. But thats not a moral thing, it's just my way of thinking/being, and I woudl never seek to enforce this on other people.

 

[Abaddon]

Other: Eating meat is not an issue of morality for me.

 

[salty mud]

I will eat meat any time. I can't see the problem in it.

 

[Grisu]

My personal opinion is that eating meat is not a moral issue, and should not be treated as one.

It's a personal choice. Personally, I see no need for myself to eat meat, and thus think we should let animals be and co-exist. But thats not a moral thing, it's just my way of thinking/being, and I woudl never seek to enforce this on other people.

Personally, I try to get my meat from sources where I know how the animal has been treated (at least to some extent). But I don't see the whole thing as a moral issue at all.

 

[_random_]

i'm just waiting for the day when they start passing out soylent green...
(was soylent green considered meat? or soy?)

Actually, in the original book it just stood for soybeans and lentils. Then, they took a concept mentioned on one page, completely changed its meaning, changed the name to reflect that, and threw in Charlton Heston for good measure.

On topic, I eat all the meats any American would eat except lamb, veal, and pork. Lamb and veal because I don't like to eat young animals for ecological reasons. Pork because at one point, I considered vegetarianism and decided to start by giving up pork. I've pretty much given up on that, but I've kept my promise to myself.

 

[ComradeDavo]

Other: Eating meat is not an issue of morality for me.

Personally, I try to get my meat from sources where I know how the animal has been treated (at least to some extent). But I don't see the whole thing as a moral issue at all.

Glad to see there is at least 2 others on this forum who don't agree with this whole 'meat is a morale issue' thing!

 

[Mise]

As a vegetarian first thing that springs to mind when I see this thread is 'ARGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!'

It's threads like this which understandably get all the meat eaters annoyed at what they see as vegetarians thinking themselves 'morally superior'.

My personal opinion is that eating meat is not a moral issue, and should not be treated as one.

It's a personal choice. Personally, I see no need for myself to eat meat, and thus think we should let animals be and co-exist. But thats not a moral thing, it's just my way of thinking/being, and I woudl never seek to enforce this on other people.

Personally, I think that vegetarians really are morally superior to meat-eaters. But I don't always act most morally (if I did I'd be the next Mother Theresa). That's why I think it's a personal choice; you choose whether or not doing the "most moral" thing is really worth the effort.

For me, the effort to abandon meat completely is too great in comparison with the moral cost of not doing so -- but I still want animals to be treated compassionately, and am willing to make sacrifices (either through having to pay more for "ethically sourced" foods, or the inconvenience of not being able to buy certain things at the supermarket) in order to maintain that balance.


EDIT: I drew a graph!

The dotted line is my "target" level of morality. Above the line are things that I think are morally good, but which I don't need to achieve in order to feel satisfied in myself, and how morally I am acting. Treating animals humanely would be below the line - if I were to kill an animal in an inhumane fashion, I would not feel satisfied in myself, nor in how morally I am acting.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

@ComradeDavo

make that 3

reminds me of my wife who still keeps eating meat once/twice a month only so she's not called vegetarian. Gotta agree the tribe is usually more annoying even then feminists or militants for gay rights, which is quite a performance...

I imagine you're between 13 and 25, am I right?

otherwise you're wrong.

I'm talking about morals on behalf of the user, not the seller. That's another discussion.

me too. Was mostly referring to Bigfoot's:

I know it's not as healthy as whatever alternative, but I would rather live a shorter, happier life.

and tried to point that I think health is off bound anyway; supposedly, everyone made an informed decision(and anyway, being ignorant ain't an excuse).

 

[Bigfoot3814]

I would never eat dog or a horse.

Why not? How do you know you wouldn't like it? How do you know you wouldn't LOVE it?

 

[Narz]

otherwise you're wrong.

Just a guess based on my own personal experience. I didn't care much at all about health until I was around 24.