Where is Poland?

[Dachs]

Isn't Europe just a peninsula of Asia?

The same way Africa is, in other words: technically yes, but meaningfully no.

We are talking about degree of precision, right? If you check that wiki page you will see that different economist or encyclopedist all put Poland in central Europe....

And others do not. The definitions that disparate groups have for "Eastern" or "Central" Europe have nothing to do with precision.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Actually, far from anachronism, I'm using an even more modern conception of Europe than the dated, 1990s version you're using. People who still think that Europe extends to the Urals, or that Russia is a part of Europe in any meaningful way, are indeed living in the distant past. Europe extends at best to Romania, Moldova, Latvia & Estonia. Even Ukraine and Belarus are only barely part of Europe in the 21st century --

citation needed please....

 

[Mise]

You literally just cited it.

In what way is Russia a meaningful part of Europe?

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

And others do not. The definitions that disparate groups have for "Eastern" or "Central" Europe have nothing to do with precision.

So geograficaly, culturaly, economicaly, historicaly and in other ways Poland is distintc from the westernmost and eastermost European nations/states yet these has no value in grouping it with other simmilar nations/states into separate group? What else is precission?

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

You literally just cited it.

In what way is Russia a meaningful part of Europe?

Christian nation, involved in european politics for example.

 

[Dachs]

So geograficaly, culturaly, economicaly, historicaly and in other ways Poland is distintc from the westernmost and eastermost European nations/states yet these has no value in grouping it with other simmilar nations/states into separate group? What else is precission?

Precision is the reproducibility of a given result; since there is apparently so much contention over the definitions of "Central" and "Eastern" Europe, neither category is "precise" at all.

Christian nation, involved in european politics for example.

By that criterion, the Czech Republic is not European.

 

[Mise]

How is it involved in European politics?

How is being a Christian nation relevant? There are lots of Christian nations that are not in Europe, and most European nations are majority non-religious anyway. The vast majority of the Czech Republic are not Christian; CZ has one of the highest % of atheists in the world. Is it because, 1,000 years ago, the Czech Republic was a Christian nation?

 

[Leoreth]

Actually, far from anachronism, I'm using an even more modern conception of Europe than the dated, 1990s version you're using. People who still think that Europe extends to the Urals, or that Russia is a part of Europe in any meaningful way, are indeed living in the distant past. Europe extends at best to Romania, Moldova, Latvia & Estonia. Even Ukraine and Belarus are only barely part of Europe in the 21st century -- I would personally exclude them from any meaningful understanding of Europe in this day and age. Looking at the modern conception of Europe, it's clear that Poland and Czech Rep are in the Eastern half, while Germany and France are in the West. Scandinavia is obviously Northern Europe while Italy, Spain, Portugal and Greece are clearly Southern Europe.

Yes, if you want to continue using an ancient definition of Europe that extends to the Urals, and merely update this raw geography with 1990s borders, then fine, go ahead. But I'm personally going for a more relevant, 21st century approach, which takes Europe to be a meaningful group of like-minded countries, quite aside from the corruption and authoritarianism of Modern Russia. This Europe indeed has PL and CZ in its East, but it's in the East of something meaningful and forward thinking, not backward and fearful like the old 1990s Europe.

Interesting. I for all intents and purposes grew up in post 1990 Europe and this matches my "intuitive" conception of Europe rather well. Even though I was taught the "official" definition of Europe ("Ural mountains, Ural river, Caspian Sea, Caucasus"), intuitively I often see the "border" of Europe more as a straight line somewhere between the Black Sea and the Gulf of Finland.

 

[Mise]

And what about Muslim states in Balkans?

EDIT: x-post.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

How is it involved in European politics?

How is being a Christian nation relevant? There are lots of Christian nations that are not in Europe, and most European nations are majority non-religious anyway. The vast majority of the Czech Republic are not Christian; CZ has one of the highest % of atheists in the world. Is it because, 1,000 years ago, the Czech Republic was a Christian nation?

By that criterion, the Czech Republic is not European.

I mean Christian as in cultural/ geopolitic influence not in purely religious sense.

 

[Mise]

I mean Christian as in cultural/ geopolitic influence not in purely religious terms.

Right, so you're going for a historical definition that is no longer relevant today.

Is Albania in Europe? Bosnia?

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Interesting. I for all intents and purposes grew up in post 1990 Europe and this matches my "intuitive" conception of Europe rather well. Even though I was taught the "official" definition of Europe ("Ural mountains, Ural river, Caspian Sea, Caucasus"), intuitively I often see the "border" of Europe more as a straight line somewhere between the Black Sea and the Gulf of Finland.

talking of precision...

 

[Dachs]

talking of precision...

Mise isn't the one claiming that the categories of Central and Eastern Europe are "precise". You are.

 

[Leoreth]

I emphasized it for a reason and wasn't claiming any sort of objective status for my concept of Europe.

All I did was supporting Mise's definition of Europe insofar that it's not something he made up just for himself. And if a definition doesn't match peoples' conception of something, it's not a very good definition anymore.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Right, so you're going for a historical definition that is no longer relevant today.

Is Albania in Europe? Bosnia?

I think you have to use natural borders first and mainly so the current geographical definition seems to be accurate enough.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I emphasized it for a reason and wasn't claiming any sort of objective status for my concept of Europe.

All I did was supporting Mise's definition of Europe insofar that it's not something he made up just for himself. And if a definition doesn't match peoples' conception of something, it's not a very good definition anymore.

Sure thats subject for discussion but some citation would help to support the case...

 

[Dachs]

I think you have to use natural borders first and mainly so the current geographical definition seems to be accurate enough.

"Natural" borders are a crock. It's all arbitrary and subjective. The point is that it's a shared subjectivity.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

"Natural" borders are a crock. It's all arbitrary and subjective. The point is that it's a shared subjectivity.

Thats fine by me as long as the majority of the arbiters are for it.

 

[Dachs]

Thats fine by me as long as the majority of the arbiters are for it.

So since the term "Eastern Europe" includes Poland in most common English-language discourse, you're okay with using it in that way?

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

So since the term "Eastern Europe" includes Poland in most common English-language discourse, you're okay with using it in that way?

I am "O.K." with it but consider it rather an anachronism based on ignorance of the uniqueness of the central europian region. But stronger arbiter for me then common English language discourse is encyclopedic or other specialist division.