Where is Poland?

[Mise]

I don't understand how you can consider it an anachronism to use a definition that is 25 years old, yet using a definition that is 2,000 years old and depends on cultural/religious links that existed 1,000 years ago and that don't in any way exist today is not anachronistic.

Our definition of Europe is old fashioned. What we need is an even more old fashioned definition!

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I don't understand how you can consider it an anachronism to use a definition that is 25 years old, yet using a definition that is 2,000 years old and depends on cultural/religious links that existed 1,000 years ago and that don't in any way exist today is not anachronistic.

Our definition of Europe is old fashioned. What we need is an even more old fashioned definition!

funny. But you have to consider these: in terms of geography 1,000 years is nothing in terms of religion its not that much but in terms of economy 25 years can be a lot and in terms of politics only God knows...

 

[bhsup]

I'm just going to throw this in here. It was a quick 2 minute thing in chat. I asked only because I was truly surprised to read Mise's comments about what Europe is now. I had no idea that view had taken hold at all.

<VRWCAgent> hey, really quick. Don't think about it, just what pops in your head first!
<VRWCAgent> EUROPE, what is it??
<Cutlass> cpmtinent
<Cutlass> continent
<VRWCAgent> extending to...?
<Cutlass> a little ways into russia
<VRWCAgent> Like the urals?
<Cutlass> something like that
<VRWCAgent> I only asked because Mise's claim that Europe's definition has changed to exclude Russia kinda of shocked me.
<VRWCAgent> I'm guessing that must be a more Euro-centric way of viewing themselves than how the rest of the world sees it.
<Cutlass> they just don't want russia in the eu. and i don't blame them. russia sucks more than the soviets did
<Cutlass> link?
<VRWCAgent> bear with me, I'm looking
<VRWCAgent> trying to remember which damned thread I read that in...
<Cutlass>
<VRWCAgent> Ah, naturally. The poland location thread
<VRWCAgent> http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12314859&postcount=277
<VRWCAgent> Yeah, thing is I don't equate the EU and Europe at all. One is a geographic thing, one is political.
<VRWCAgent> That would be like if I decided arbitrarily now that North America doesn't include Mexico anymore.
<Cutlass> well, he's talking culture/politics. not geography.

 

[really]

I will be going to a wedding in the south east of Poland this summer, about 50km from Ukraine - I will report on what I find.

The town center seems to be built inside a fortress like you get in CivV.

Poland will be in the Brave New World expansion for Civ - it could end up being anywhere.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I will be going to a wedding in the south east of Poland this summer, about 50km from Ukraine - I will report on what I find.

The town center seems to be built inside a fortress like you get in CivV.

Poland will be in the Brave New World expansion for Civ - it could end up being anywhere.

Be sure to bring mosquito net and burqa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa - you know Africa

 

[Leoreth]

Sure thats subject for discussion but some citation would help to support the case...

But whom would you like us to cite? I don't think that Mise is arguing that his definition of Europe is accepted in the scholarly mainstream. His argument, as I take it, is that the scholarly mainstream hasn't adjusted to the changes in the conception of Europe yet. So citing scholars (geographers or political scientists or whatever) wouldn't help us in this case.

I am "O.K." with it but consider it rather an anachronism based on ignorance of the uniqueness of the central europian region. But stronger arbiter for me then common English language discourse is encyclopedic or other specialist division.

What is the uniqueness of the Central European region?? Is this the usual "the Western world doesn't appreciate how important we are" complaint?

I'm just going to throw this in here. It was a quick 2 minute thing in chat. I asked only because I was truly surprised to read Mise's comments about what Europe is now. I had no idea that view had taken hold at all.

I was surprised too, I didn't expect anyone to share my view on this matter.

But your exchange doesn't really make sense. There is no geographic definition of Europe. Geographically, there is no reason to separate Eurasia into two continents like that. So it has always been a cultural/political thing. Therefore it's not that surprising that the idea of what Europe is changes according to political realities.

That said, I have no problem to label Germany and Poland both Central European countries. All I'm saying is that there are different ways to look at what Europe is and how it is divided into parts because there is no obvious geographic separation between these things.

But "we = west/center, the others = east = bad" is basically a cultural trope that exists in all of Europe. For the French, Eastern Europe begins west of the Rhine, for the Germans, it was plainly obvious during the Cold War that West Germany was in Western Europe while East Germany was in Eastern Europe, even though that made little sense. Now Germans see Poland as Eastern Europe, and Poles the Ukraine.

And I think it's the desire not to end up on the bad side of geographic labeling that actually fuels the insistence on being labeled Central European.

 

[Dachs]

And I think it's the desire not to end up on the bad side of geographic labeling that actually fuels the insistence on being labeled Central European.

Gee, you think?

 

[Leoreth]

I thought the obvious reason was that Westerners are chauvinists and don't want to accept Poland into the illustrious circle of countries that deserve the title "Central European".

 

[Domen]

Historically speaking, Poland has always been a country in which both Western, Eastern and Oriental (South-Eastern) cultural influences interpenetrated - and whether there was relative balance, or one of them dominated over the other one, only depended on particular historical timeframe.

So "central" is a word that fits well to Poland - a country "where west meets with east" and with south-east.

 

[Leoreth]

It's true for most countries that it is influenced by things both west and east from it. What you are saying is basically "relative to Poland, Poland is at the center". Duh.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

But whom would you like us to cite? I don't think that Mise is arguing that his definition of Europe is accepted in the scholarly mainstream. His argument, as I take it, is that the scholarly mainstream hasn't adjusted to the changes in the conception of Europe yet. So citing scholars (geographers or political scientists or whatever) wouldn't help us in this case.

Have you ever visited that part of Europe which you think should be part of Asia? Or where does this intuitive feeling comes from?

What is the uniqueness of the Central European region?? Is this the usual "the Western world doesn't appreciate how important we are" complaint?

Landlocked nation/states or countries which didnt significantly participate in colonisation of the new world. Politics which revolved around balance of power between papacy and Kaiser. Meeting point of two different yet simillar type of civilisations: slavic and germanic etc.

 

[Mise]

But whom would you like us to cite? I don't think that Mise is arguing that his definition of Europe is accepted in the scholarly mainstream. His argument, as I take it, is that the scholarly mainstream hasn't adjusted to the changes in the conception of Europe yet. So citing scholars (geographers or political scientists or whatever) wouldn't help us in this case.

Yeah exactly.

 

[Leoreth]

Have you ever visited that part of Europe which you think should be part of Asia? Or where does this intuitive feeling comes from?

I've been to St. Peterburg, which would be right on the ad hoc border I've mentioned before. Does that count?

And I can't explain rationally where my intuitive feeling comes from. That's why I called it an intuitive feeling. If I had a rational explanation for my perception I would've mentioned that right away.

 

[warpus]

I don't understand how you can consider it an anachronism to use a definition that is 25 years old, yet using a definition that is 2,000 years old and depends on cultural/religious links that existed 1,000 years ago and that don't in any way exist today is not anachronistic.

Our definition of Europe is old fashioned. What we need is an even more old fashioned definition!

Anachronism is not a very good word to describe it. It was a term that was used during the cold war, whereas the other term was used for hundreds of years before that.

I'm totally not following the conversation though.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I on the other hand am for extending the borders of Europe to include Siberia

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I've been to St. Peterburg, which would be right on the ad hoc border I've mentioned before. Does that count?

And I can't explain rationally where my intuitive feeling comes from. That's why I called it an intuitive feeling. If I had a rational explanation for my perception I would've mentioned that right away.

All right so you think that part of Europe has more in common with China or India then with say Poland or Finland?

 

[Mise]

What exactly do China and India have in common...?

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

What exactly do China and India have in common...?

They happen to be geographicaly in the same corner of the world and continent even though India is subcontinent - for good reasons.

 

[Mise]

Right, exactly -- Asia is so big that two countries that have nothing in common can nonetheless both be considered part of Asia. So what does it matter how much Russia has in common with China or India, when neither China nor India have a great deal in common with each other?

If you want to talk about geography, look at Russia and look at Asia and tell me they aren't the same thing...

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Right, exactly -- Asia is so big that two countries that have nothing in common can nonetheless both be considered part of Asia. So what does it matter how much Russia has in common with China or India, when neither China nor India have a great deal in common with each other?

If you want to talk about geography, look at Russia and look at Asia and tell me they aren't the same thing...

O.K. so where you going to draw the line and on what grounds? Majority of Russians are living in European part of Russia if you will put them to Asia then why not Poland or Germany? If I remember your only argument was that Russia "doesnt add anything to Europe" which is pretty feeble IMO.