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Which Polynesian civ?

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by Greywulf, Feb 3, 2018.

?

Which Polynesian civ?

  1. Tonga

    10 vote(s)
    19.6%
  2. Samoa

    2 vote(s)
    3.9%
  3. Hawaii

    9 vote(s)
    17.6%
  4. Maori (New Zealand)

    26 vote(s)
    51.0%
  5. Other (please share)

    1 vote(s)
    2.0%
  6. Keep it "Polynesia"

    3 vote(s)
    5.9%
  7. Hiva (Marquesas Islands)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Warlord

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    This is accurate. Also somewhat accurate for Polynesia as well.
     
  2. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Chieftain

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    They cite economic reasons, but really it's just general civil unrest. Either way, isn't economic inequality function similarly as resource scarcity for the majority of the public? I'm not saying poverty is quite the same as having no resources, but if the quality of life drops substantially (like, say, environmental and health policies are thrown out the window because the president doesn't understand science), you get roughly the same sort of civil unrest, high mortality and crime rates, and threats of economic/resource collapse.

    Also, of course the idea of Texas secession is stupid. Just like Quebec and Vermont and California and many of the other regions I mentioned. Texas just happens to be stupider than the others. :p

    Okay, but aside from football they haven't had much global presence in wars or politics, not to mention don't have the same sort of memetic draw as haka warriors or Kamehameha.

    I wouldn't be disappointed at all if Polynesia were just represented by a single Tonga civ, complete with tikis and outriggers. If we only get one civ, I would vastly prefer Tonga over only Hawaii or Maori. HOWEVER, if by some extremely likely chance they just "split" V's Polynesia in two, we are far more likely to get Maori/Hawaii, since they include everything (except Moai) that people liked about Polynesian civ, as well as represent the furthest extents of the "Polynesian empire." It would be a much safer design decision (although, Mapuche and Cree are decidedly not safe, so there is hope).

    It really comes down to how they want to represent Polynesia. Do they want one, fundamental civ, or do they want multiple, differentiated civs? Do they want modern, globally significant civs, or do they want an older "origin" civ? I'm not even sure if I'd be disappointed either way, as long as the end result didn't feel blobby like in V.
     
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  3. Phrozen

    Phrozen Chieftain

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    Actually the only one you listed that is poorer than average is Scotland. Catalonia, Bavaria, Texas, and Venice are actually richer than the average polity of their parent country and that is part of their complaints along with the cultural fit.

    Texas could actually exist pretty decently on its own. It would be a petro state like Norway and much of the Middle East. It is still stupid for economic reasons though and then the various parts of Texas will want to split. East Texas, Hill Country, West Texas, and North Texas are all very different. If Texas leaves you would probably have Oklahoma and a big part of Louisiana leave with them.
     
  4. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Chieftain

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    Well then. I learned a thing.

    Oklahoma would want to, but I'm not sure Texas would want it since it's kind of a parasitic overflow relationship in the same way Arizona is to California. I'm sure Texas would welcome the world's largest port into its new country, but I'm split on whether Louisiana would join them. Parts of Louisiana are definitely "Texan." Others, particularly the more populated areas, are decidedly Cadian, which has its own weird statist identity. Plus, I have no idea whether Louisiana would abandon its legal structure for the sake of buddying with Texas.

    It really depends, I think, on how much they would rather not be lumped in with Dixie. Particularly since they share a coast with the two most backwards states in the country.[/QUOTE]
     
  5. Phrozen

    Phrozen Chieftain

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    West Louisiana and East Texas are basically the same culture.
     
  6. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    Yeah, and one of the oddest things about it is it's like we are in a hurry to self destruct. We have the technology now to slow it down significantly and give ourselves hundreds of years more to figure out a solution, and terrans have the ability to behave more sustainably as both individuals and as a society, it's not that we are incapable...the powers that be seem to either not want to, not care, and/or are too greedy and selfish. I think it mostly boils down to hedonism and the love of money. Unfortunately there isn't much at all that we as individuals can do about it, and we cannot escape hedonists and greedy people. If I was to guess from what I've seen, I'd say there are probably more hedonists than ever before.
    Also, there does seem to be a truth in the saying that "power corrupts", although I don't think that is always the case. So yeah, we are in quite the mess, and every time we try to claw our way out of it, it's like the world is against us.
    Not to go too far off topic, but out of curiosity, do you think there's a way out of all of this?
     
  7. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Chieftain

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    Okay, I've finally voted. For Tonga.

    My reasoning:
    • The Polynesian blob civ I drafted as a mental exercise, although something I'd be extremely happy with, seems to only exist for the sake of modern tourism and the popularity of Civ V's Poly blob. Mechanically it is forced in two drastically different directions (military and hospitality), which is something I would only be fine with if we had a lot of other civs represented this way (Italy as religious and mercantile, France as shifty and lawful, Arabia as scientific and militaristic, Japan as imperialistic and religious, etc.) In absence of that, I don't think this schizoid sort of representation, particularly the Maori part, suits the otherwise very trade-oriented and peaceful Polynesian islands very well. It could work, especially if we want the warship side of Polynesia, but I don't like it as much.
    • The two most unique things to Maori and Hawaiians--tikis and outriggers--are also common to Tonga/Samoa. This is because it is generally agreed upon that after spreading eastward from Melanesia, it was the Tongan islands at which Polynesians spread out to colonize what is known as the "Polynesian Triangle," defined by Maori, Hawaii, and Rapa Nui. Meaning that the entirety of the Polynesia civ as represented in V derived completely from Tonga anyway. The most unique things about either culture that aren't tikis and outriggers--like the Maori tattoos or Hawaiian hula--also derive from Tonga (albeit, substantially more developed than their Tongan counterparts).There would be nothing historically dishonest in representing the entirety of modern Polynesia by its common ancestor the Tongans.
    • The Tongans actually had the closest thing resembling an "Empire" at some point. They actively expanded, they united islands under a single crown, and they maintained positive intra-island political and trade relationships. While conquering and trade happened in New Zealand and Hawaii, the degree of unification is decidedly less, what with having multiple chieftans and periods of intertribal war. And, on top of that, they were relatively short-lived monarchies that were both ultimately incorporated into larger colonial powers; Tonga endured longer and remains independent.
    So, I vote for Tonga. I think tikis and outriggers are far more iconic than haka warriors and Kamehameha, and that players wouldn't miss them as much as they think. I'd still support a Moai wonder, however.
     
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  8. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    My thinking exactly, although I agree with PhoenicianGold that it's a great deal more likely that we will see Maori/Hawaii rather than Tonga, Samoa, or Tahiti. If they pick out one kingdom, then I would say that Tonga is the most deserving historically speaking, and wayfinding would be an important feature for them, while the Maori would be far less likely to have such an ability. For just a single Polynesian kingdom, I would choose Tonga.
    That being said, Hawaiians and Maori represent two different sides of the Polynesian world, so if there were two Polynesian civs (either as "Polynesia" with two leaders, or as two separate individual civs), I can see why they might still choose the Hawaiians and the Maori...Besides the fact that these two are quite popular. They'll never include all the Polynesian kingdoms together, even in a Polynesian scenario (like we only got 4 of them in the Civ V scenario. They were Tonga, Samoa, Hiva, and Tahiti), and so not everyone will get included either way.

    Indeed, not to mention surfing, and their linguistic influence on English, I think Hawaii will always be a major contender for the Civ series (since Civ V that is).

    Regarding Vanuatu, technically that is in Melanesia.
     
  9. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    I'm very happy to get behind that. I really think that individually the Tongans are the most deserving, but also would represent a Polynesian civ the way that I would want to play as a Polynesian civ, and wouldn't be at risk of having that awesome wayfinding ability replaced (which I suspect would happen for the Maori), and I am mainly supporting Polynesia because of wanting a similar experience that I had in Civ V. I think that the very reason why Polynesia ended up being so popular is because of wayfinding, and therefore we might want to move away from the Maori as our first choice for a Polynesian civ (unless we are getting 2 civs, or 2 leaders, in which case they would be cool as the second one).

    I'm changing my vote with you to support Tonga being included. If not Tonga, then I would vote to either keep it "Polynesia" with 2 leaders, or have two individual Polynesian civs (which doesn't seem likely).

    Now for the next important question: Which Tongan leader should they have?
     
  10. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Chieftain

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    It's really just the sheer incompatibility between leisure culture and our stupid monkey brains. We are designed to only look at local problems and constantly "survive." This presents a problem when there is no surviving to do. We want to feel like we're still getting ahead, so we buy distractions that we have been told are important. But we also aren't used to looking at the broader context and recognize that our attention spans are being exploited by the aristocracy. The larger a company grows, increases middle men, affiliates, house marks, positive PR, the harder it is for consumers to notice that all of their expendable income is monopolized before they even spend it.

    And it works both ways, because I honestly think the stupid monkey brains at the top of the food chain don't actively think of how many civilians they are screwing over by hoarding wealth. If most of your assets are held in stocks, you have no assets if the consumer class can't afford to buy your goods/services. You need to circulate money back into the economy for there to be a consumer class at all. Every smart enduring power structure has recognized the difference between wealth and income; wealth accumulates and is eventually overthrown, while income can be sustained almost indefinitely if you reinvest into the economy. The problem is the aristocracy is already pretty solidified and so much of the rest of the upper class pursues wealth over income in a (futile) attempt to usurp the powers that be. They're all in the same rat race, and they will all be toppled at once if faith in the dollar ever crashes.

    There really isn't because that requires believing in humanity as a whole, and I think that's impossible with how poorly educated large swathes of first world populations are.

    But, if there is, staunch voting with your dollar. Do not enable monopolies and actively work to hinder or break them up, because they always attract more money to them than the conveniences they put out. Don't go see that Disney movie that everyone else is seeing or buy their ****** merchandise and games. Don't buy that Apple product made from so much exploited third world labor. Don't buy food from franchises that rent to and extort managers (Subway, McDonalds) or national grocers who extort employees (Walmart). Invest in alternative energy wherever you can to dethrone the big oil and coal companies. Be extremely dubious of the conveniences of Google and Amazon and be prepared to drop them at a moment's notice if they ever abuse their newfound power. Delete Facebook and Twitter, probably the two biggest forces against free, reasoned discussion in the world outside of China. Let monopolies form, but only let them live for so long before you destroy them.

    The other three biggest changes I believe would help force wealth circulation would be:
    • The substantial reduction of corporate rights as pseudo-individuals. This extends to taxes, property holdings, etc.
    • The substantial increase of death taxes. All these do is compound and create de facto aristocracies, who then buy political power.
    • Banning privately funded campaigning for political office and alotting fair, equal tax-funded stipends to candidates. This would help to reverse so much of the plutocratic stagnancy that has developed in the United States. It might even help if implemented in other countries.
    The problem is we're all caught up in the same rat race. Conscientiousness is a luxury, and we are all too busy trying to gain footholds where we can to worry about reform. That and we're distracted by our opiates and circuses.

    Tonga is wonderful, though, isn't?
     
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  11. PhoenicianGold

    PhoenicianGold Chieftain

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    I think Momo is the clear frontrunner. He represents the height of the Tongan empire, as well as the first (if temporary) union between Tonga and Samoa.
     
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  12. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    Nice!

    I found some articles to share info on the Tonga Empire, and the history of Tonga.

    Momo of the Tonga Empire: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momo_(Tonga)
    Tonga Empire: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuʻi_Tonga_Empire
    Early history of Tonga: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_history_of_Tonga
    History of Tonga: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tonga
    Tonga Empire: https://www.sciencealert.com/tonga-...-mighty-trading-empire-in-prehistoric-oceania

    Someone has already made a Tonga mod for Civ V too: http://civilization-v-customisation.wikia.com/wiki/Tonga_('Aho'eitu)
    They've even provided Tongan music. What do you think of this mod?

    Very short clip on the history of Tonga...


    Tongans really are an ideal choice for a single Polynesian civ.
     
  13. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Warlord

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    If you mean by wanting to secede I would say yes it would be stupid of us if we did. I'm not sure of any plans to do it though. There are plenty of us who are intelligent. :p
    We basically are.
    Btw. I'm still saying I would want Samoa. No idea how to necessarily design it other than being a cultural Civ.
     
  14. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    Samoa are a significant Polynesian kingdom, but Tonga appears to have been more historically significant, even having an empire. Would you be willing to back a Tongan vote?
     
  15. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    Ok, so let's try to brainstorm a Tongan civ...

    Tonga Empire

    UA: Wayfinders - Coast and Ocean tiles act as sources of fresh water. All units can embark across ocean tiles from the start of the game.

    UB: Tiki - Replaces the shrine (We need the Tongan word for "Tiki", as that is a Maori term).

    UU: Pôpao - (Outrigger canoe) replaces scout. Travels swiftly across ocean tiles with increased line of sight.

    Momo

    Need to work out a specific Ability and Agenda for Momo of Tonga...


    How's that so far?
     
  16. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    ~ By the way, I think that a percentage of those voting for the Maori might merely be wanting a New Zealand civ, rather than a Polynesian civ.
     
  17. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    I doubt it. The several New Zealanders I've seen post here have all said they don't want a NZ civ.
     
  18. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    Ok, good to know. It's interesting though that one of the youngest Polynesian civs is also one of the most popular choices. There is more history in central Polynesia.
     
  19. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    They still have a rich culture though, and, as I said in my earlier post, a leader with tā moko would look pretty epic. But I'd be content with whatever Polynesian civ Firaxis chose except a return of the blob--though I dislike the Polynesian blob less than some others.
     
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  20. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

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    There's a good chance we will see tattoos on a non-Maori Polynesian leader as well.
     
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