Mise
isle of lucy
I prefer Obama-style big government militarism over Bush/McCain-style big government militarism, if that's what you mean.
Which would you prefer?
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Are we assuming that with the full resources of the Secret Service, the Edwards scandals would still come to light? Or just that we (personally) know that he's scum?
NickyJ
Retired Narrator
Considering that the Secret Service couldn't even cover up its own scandal, I don't think it really matters.
GoodGame
Red, White, & Blue, baby!
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In 2004 I think it still depends on how one views how Kerry would have taken over on the international scene. That was way more important than domestic issues at that time.
Predicting Kerry will die if you vote for him seems a bizarre stipulation to add to the OP question.
Even though we know the VP may have to take over, we generally expect nothing will happen when we vote for the ticket. We do so because Presidents very rarely die in office. I wouldn't be very concerned about Edwards' behavior for that reason. A bad VP can be impeached.
Kerry did a good job of looking mediocre on national defense, even if one was skeptical of Bush's rationale for invading Iraq. That would be the central basis of how I vote in 2004 (and how I did vote), because national security was the biggest concern back then.
LOL at NickyJ's comment.
Predicting Kerry will die if you vote for him seems a bizarre stipulation to add to the OP question.
Even though we know the VP may have to take over, we generally expect nothing will happen when we vote for the ticket. We do so because Presidents very rarely die in office. I wouldn't be very concerned about Edwards' behavior for that reason. A bad VP can be impeached.
Kerry did a good job of looking mediocre on national defense, even if one was skeptical of Bush's rationale for invading Iraq. That would be the central basis of how I vote in 2004 (and how I did vote), because national security was the biggest concern back then.
LOL at NickyJ's comment.
IdiotsOpposite
Boom, headshot.
I voted for Kerry, because Bush was worse.
GhostWriter16
Deity
Probably not. But some are closer than others.
The idea that anyone would turn to the Jeffersonian, minarchist ideal when they have the power is almost laughable. And the only reason its not 100% laughable is because Ron Paul is still alive
At least you admit Obama isn't much better
That's why most of us vote how we do, isn't it?
I mean, how many of us actually like our voting choices?
AlpsStranger
Jump jump on the tiger!
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The legacy of Edwards driving the Democrat's reputation into the ground would, by the end, involve the appointment of even more conservative justices. With plenty of other fun stuff besides.
History_Buff
Deity
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I like who I voted for in the last Federal election. And I don't hate the party I voted for in the last provincial election. And I really like the guy who I voted for in the last municipal election.
GhostWriter16
Deity
You live in Canada though
It seems like almost everyone in the US doesn't actually like their choice. Considering there's only two choices, this makes sense. We get a choice between a big government conservative and a liberal who is, depending on which parts matter more, either slightly better or even worse. We don't actually get the choice for a small-government conservative or libertarian, or on the liberal side, they don't get a choice that's left-enough with them. I've met very few people, both IRL and online, that's happy with Romney, and nobody that's happy with Obama.
sophie
Break My Heart
I genuinely liked Obama in 2008, and I still modestly like him in 2012 - enough to actually get up and vote for once! So yes, there is at least one person in the US who likes who he (or she) is voting for.
GhostWriter16
Deity
I thought you were completely ticked off at him in 2010? What changed?
sophie
Break My Heart
Mostly him coming out in support of gay marriage.
Rashiminos
Fool Prophet
I'm guessing the other, more extreme alternatives are still in play?
There are wars to change or start, at the very least.
I don't personally have to vote third party if the other two parties are no longer vivable options.
(8)
In the meantime, I'll search for a hammer and a lighter to deal with this hyperbox we seem to be trapped in.
GhostWriter16
Deity
That was what made me hate him so much
Kidding, I couldn't stand Obama anyway. Honestly, I don't know why so many conservatives make a huge deal out of this. He used to support the state's rights to decide, but personally disagreed with it. Now he still support's the state's rights to decide, but supports it. I honestly don't see it making a lick of difference in places where its not popular. Plus, this issue is a lot less important to me than it is to some conservatives anyway.
My biggest issues with Obama have to do with abortion (He not only supports abortion, like most liberals, but he supports abortion essentially to the moment of birth, as evidenced by his vote against the ban on partial birth abortion), Civil Liberties (Same old Patriot Act crap), religion (He has demonstrated to me that if freedom of religion contradicts his policy goals it will be ignored) and Federal power (Obama is among the most anti-state's rights presidents I've seen, except when its convenient.)
I could back all that stuff up but I think its pretty much common knowledge. If any of these facts in particular are challenged I'm sure I could find sources... tomorrow.
History_Buff, if you get candidates you actually like, I envy you. Very rarely do good local candidates and good provincial/federal leaders match up in Red Deer. However, the Conservatives matched up beautifully - at the all-candidates' forum I attended, the Conservative candidate was literally represented by a potted plant. The actual human candidate didn't think he needed to be there. The Liberal candidate was extremely ill and couldn't make it - but he did send a very capable human substitute. The Green Party candidate was capable, but a bit too young, and the NDP candidate was so unmemorable, I don't recall anything about him at all. Yet that's who I went with, simply because it would bolster Jack Layton's leadership. Who knew he'd die shortly after the election?You live in Canada though
It seems like almost everyone in the US doesn't actually like their choice. Considering there's only two choices, this makes sense. We get a choice between a big government conservative and a liberal who is, depending on which parts matter more, either slightly better or even worse. We don't actually get the choice for a small-government conservative or libertarian, or on the liberal side, they don't get a choice that's left-enough with them. I've met very few people, both IRL and online, that's happy with Romney, and nobody that's happy with Obama.
GhostWriter16 (wish you hadn't changed your name; this is confusing!): From my understanding, there are more than two choices. The problem is that not enough people are willing to take a chance on any of them. Then these same people sit around and complain that they don't have any choices.
If Canadians were like that, we wouldn't now have the NDP sitting as Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition.
That said, all too many of our elections don't come with good candidates that match up with good leaders. All too often I've had to hold my nose and vote for the least offensive person/party that will deny the Conservatives my vote.
History_Buff
Deity
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History_Buff, if you get candidates you actually like, I envy you. Very rarely do good local candidates and good provincial/federal leaders match up in Red Deer. However, the Conservatives matched up beautifully - at the all-candidates' forum I attended, the Conservative candidate was literally represented by a potted plant. The actual human candidate didn't think he needed to be there. The Liberal candidate was extremely ill and couldn't make it - but he did send a very capable human substitute. The Green Party candidate was capable, but a bit too young, and the NDP candidate was so unmemorable, I don't recall anything about him at all. Yet that's who I went with, simply because it would bolster Jack Layton's leadership. Who knew he'd die shortly after the election?
I never got all the hullabaloo about voting for candidates. I'm perfectly happy voting for the party and the higher up. So when I say I like who I voted for, I mean Layton and Redford. I couldn't tell you the name of my Federal NDP rep, and I ing despise my MLA (Ric McIvor). With party discipline being what it is here, I'd say that's the right way to do it.
And then obviously in the municipal election, I actually voted for Nenshi.
Yep. The only way you can get a credible third party is by voting for them. It's why I'm super happy to see Elizabeth May sitting for the Green Party; I wouldn't vote for the Greens, but I'm glad to see them doing well.
You Yanks wouldn't start at the Presidential level of course; elect some Libertarian or Progressive Congressfolk, then build from there.
Hygro
soundcloud.com/hygro/
See I don't think Edwards would have run the Democrats into the ground. He wasn't teamed up with that woman in 2004 and other women are more discreet, and that's if he would have an affair while in office. He may have been badcore smarmy and a narcissist, but I think there's still a chance he would have been the better president in this scenario. The question is what would have happened with the housing bubble and Wall St? Edwards was the kind of character willing to fight them. It doesn't mean he would have before 2008 though. But he was the only viable candidate generally interested in lifting the poor out of the quicksand and back on their own capable feet. Somewhat in 2004, and definitely in 2008.
I think by 2005 it was too late to head off the financial crisis. It had a momentum of its own. And recall there was still a lot of dispute whether we had a bubble or not. As well as the benefits of deregulation.
There are some people who just punch the straight party ticket choice, sure. However, I should show you some of my ballots. Frequently a 50/50 split between the parties. I vote for the person, not the party.
GhostWriter16
Deity
While this might work at the local level (Especially in Missouri, less so in NY probably) at the Federal level Democrats are almost always more fiscally liberal without anything better to offer socially.
