While We Wait: Boredom Strikes Back

[Lord_Iggy]

You need to research range! Or trade for it, hoping someone else has invested time into the research.

 

[qoou]

The problem is that if you join up against Austria, you're sacrificing the long-term game on the altar of mid-term expansion. Killing Austria requires armies, and armies don't get Turkey past the stalemate lines, only fleets do. But allying with Austria against Russia is foolhardy as well, since Russia is a dead end for your fleets - but you must build fleets to make any progress across the Black Sea. The best direction for Turkish expansion is clearly westward, across the Mediterranean, but Turkey has problems maintaining an alliance with Austria even in that scenario; the only way I've been able to successfully keep the peace there is by having both Austria and Turkey maintain a large number of effectively useless armies as a deterrent. That's how I eventually won: pushing west, while suboptimally wasting many armies juggling Austria and Russia - with the aid of the English, who invaded Scandinavia and northern Russia, virtually crippling the Russians - and even then, when Austria bit the dust and I tried to surge to the eighteenth supply center, I only made it because of an epic choke by the defending coalition.

Things I disagree with:
- "allying with Austria against Russia is foolhardy": you don't ally with Austria against Russia, you ally with Austria against Turkey. Russia has a pretty hard time in the Black Sea area; they can't allow you to take the Black Sea, and they can't afford to bounce you indefinitely there (while you can). With a Southern Hedgehog (F Tri->Ven included), Russia can't get any builds in the south, and an RI can't make any progress, meaning Russia will eventually lose interest. Furthermore, Russia is vulnerable to both Germany and England in the north if they go all-out in the south, meaning you have a whopping 2 chances to butter up someone to distract Russia. Only in worst-case scenarios would you have to worry about Russia.

- "Killing Austria requires armies": stalemating Austria and locking them out of southern Italy and the Med requires no more than your 2 initial armies (Gre + Bul) and some fleets. The burden of killing Austria per se can be shifted on the frustrated Russia that's been locked out of the south (I personally stab a season after I secure the Ionian, by supporting Russia into Rumania and if I'm lucky getting Serbia in the same swoop). If Austria accidentally managed to kill Russia (can't see that happening against a competent Ruskie), you're in the perfect position to cry to the other players about how Austria is about to win the game and needs a 4-man alliance to take down. If that doesn't work, or if Russia decides to support Austria's stab on you rather than the other way around, well yes in that case you're right, Turkey is screwed. Fortunately Austria will take a while to navigate fleets over to Anatolia, so Turkey can get its "I told you so"s in as Austria methodically takes over the world.



But yes, teaming up on Austria usually leads to very bad things; if Austria is allowed to actually die, you're crushed between two large neighbors with little prospect of expansion on either side.

And if you decide to abuse Stockholm Syndrome and prop up a rump Austrian state, you're not much better off. I once did that in a high-ranked game online, and even though my stab worked beautifully and I got up to both Naples and Sevastopol, I overestimated Stockholm Syndrome and the tiny 4-SC Austria stabbed the giant 9-SC Turkey and went on to solo win the game. Bad Austrian ports ensured my survival though .

Mhm. The centerpiece of the Octopus has few drawbacks, if any. It means that the English don't have any guaranteed builds in W01 unless they go all-out and deploy fleets to the Norwegian and North Seas - and by doing that, they've successfully mired themselves in the Scandinavian dead end, with no hope of cracking the stalemate line or of defending effectively against France, England's real enemy.

What I really love about the Octopus is that it turns Russia from the West's b**ch into a valuable resource for any of the 3 Westerns. With two units in Scandinavia that early, you'll have England, Germany, and France all contacting you on the first turn to beg for an alliance, and I like that kind of attention.


Edit: So much censoring on CFC D:

 

[Dachs]

Things I disagree with:
- "allying with Austria against Russia is foolhardy": you don't ally with Austria against Russia, you ally with Austria against Turkey. Russia has a pretty hard time in the Black Sea area; they can't allow you to take the Black Sea, and they can't afford to bounce you indefinitely there (while you can). With a Southern Hedgehog (F Tri->Ven included), Russia can't get any builds in the south, and an RI can't make any progress, meaning Russia will eventually lose interest. Furthermore, Russia is vulnerable to both Germany and England in the north if they go all-out in the south, meaning you have a whopping 2 chances to butter up someone to distract Russia. Only in worst-case scenarios would you have to worry about Russia.

Huh? Turkey should ally with Austria against Turkey?

You're focusing mostly on defensive expedients, which are nice, but don't win you the game. (Classic trap for a Turkish player, by the way.) Defending against Russia doesn't require the assistance of Austria, as you yourself implied: only in worst-case scenarios should you worry about Russia. Attacking Russia does, but beyond Sevastopol, you need armies, and Turkey can't win by focusing on army production. (The armies are hard to get into Russia quickly as well, with Sevastopol as a bottleneck and even more of a circuitous route if you don't have a fleet on convoy duty in the Black Sea - even more of a resource drain.) And if you beat Russia with armies, so what? You can't break into Scandinavia, because Scandinavia can easily be held by two armies or fleets (one in St. Petersburg, one supporting). So you've got a maximum prize of three supply centers on the wrong side of the stalemate line. Russia is definitely a late game target, not an early game one.

- "Killing Austria requires armies": stalemating Austria and locking them out of southern Italy and the Med requires no more than your 2 initial armies (Gre + Bul) and some fleets. The burden of killing Austria per se can be shifted on the frustrated Russia that's been locked out of the south (I personally stab a season after I secure the Ionian, by supporting Russia into Rumania and if I'm lucky getting Serbia in the same swoop). If Austria accidentally managed to kill Russia (can't see that happening against a competent Ruskie), you're in the perfect position to cry to the other players about how Austria is about to win the game and needs a 4-man alliance to take down. If that doesn't work, or if Russia decides to support Austria's stab on you rather than the other way around, well yes in that case you're right, Turkey is screwed. Fortunately Austria will take a while to navigate fleets over to Anatolia, so Turkey can get its "I told you so"s in as Austria methodically takes over the world.

The problem is that if you're not the one killing Austria, you're not the one who reaps the benefits, and instead, somebody else is sitting on your frontier with both armies and the supply centers they captured from Austria. "Holding Austria in check" is something entirely different - and it's something I notably advocated later in the post, although with significant trepidation. Of course the ideal balance is to have Russia and Austria comfortably stalemated until you have the resources and the position to annihilate the latter and, eventually, the former. But maintaining that balance requires troops and ships, and that detracts from your other ventures rather dangerously. Progress will be slow, if there's any at all.

 

[Neverwonagame3]

What about playing defensive on land and allying with Austria or France against Italy?

 

[Dachs]

That's usually the course I advocate (minus the French), but "playing defensive" sucks up enough resources such that fighting Italy will be slow going.

The last thing you want is for France to get involved; the French can easily snap up the lion's share of supply centers, and the peninsula is the perfect place to defend against Turkish westbound fleets. If France beats you to Rome, you can kiss your chances of crossing the stalemate line goodbye.

 

[qoou]

You're focusing mostly on defensive expedients, which are nice, but don't win you the game. (Classic trap for a Turkish player, by the way.) Defending against Russia doesn't require the assistance of Austria, as you yourself implied: only in worst-case scenarios should you worry about Russia. Attacking Russia does, but beyond Sevastopol, you need armies, and Turkey can't win by focusing on army production. (The armies are hard to get into Russia quickly as well, with Sevastopol as a bottleneck and even more of a circuitous route if you don't have a fleet on convoy duty in the Black Sea - even more of a resource drain.) And if you beat Russia with armies, so what? You can't break into Scandinavia, because Scandinavia can easily be held by two armies or fleets (one in St. Petersburg, one supporting). So you've got a maximum prize of three supply centers on the wrong side of the stalemate line. Russia is definitely a late game target, not an early game one.

That is pretty much what I was saying, buy from a different angle. I was giving reasons why Russia should be disregarded in the early game. I actually had a game where I managed to sail around the world and take St. Pete's before I took Moscow . (not a very high-skilled game, but hey, still a cool achievement)

The problem is that if you're not the one killing Austria, you're not the one who reaps the benefits, and instead, somebody else is sitting on your frontier with both armies and the supply centers they captured from Austria. "Holding Austria in check" is something entirely different - and it's something I notably advocated later in the post, although with significant trepidation. Of course the ideal balance is to have Russia and Austria comfortably stalemated until you have the resources and the position to annihilate the latter and, eventually, the former. But maintaining that balance requires troops and ships, and that detracts from your other ventures rather dangerously. Progress will be slow, if there's any at all.

What I'm suggesting is:
- You and Austria attack Italy, Russia is easily held off by a couple of units.
- A little bit after you break the Ionian, you stab Austria with Russian help.
- Austria dies, Italy dies.

None of that R-A stalemate stuff; personally I find a stalemate harder to pull off than just killing Austria and taking the full brunt of Russia yourself.

 

[flyingchicken]

isnt he adowwable

 

[TheLizardKing]

Putin?

 

[Dachs]

The comparison with Macaulay Culkin is creepy.

 

[nutranurse]

....Wow, it is. No world leader should be comparable to this:

 

[Anonymoose]

There is no comparison. One uses judo against tigers (Vladimir)and the other is a burnt-out loser(Home Alone kid).

 

[GamezRule]

As soon as I saw that picture I thought: Tom Sawyer?

 

[SKILORD]

I thought Erik Lehnsherr circa his holocaust phase.

But I can see the childhood insecurities that help develop one into a repressive despot. Mark my words, if we hadn't kept Macaulay coked up through puberty we would have a serious monster on our hands. He'd be killing reporters left and right.

 

[Angst]

This is better.

 

[Birdjaguar]

^^^^ Hitler, I believe.

 

[Nuka-sama]

Oh I love this game!

 

[Angst]

Exactly BJ.

 

[Abaddon]

Right click revealed as much

 

[Angst]

I know, but I did not feel like reupping it anywhere. I'm too lazy for that.

 

[Abaddon]

I suck at Neptune's Pride. In another game (not the CFC one where I am stranded) I just made my first attack, with 99 ships.. and lost.. to his 65.. derp derp derp, his counter attack, should it come, is totally going to hose me.

I can't decide if quitting and attempting to learn from another start is better than playing this game through to completion.. even though I think it will be a downwards spiral from now on in :/