Why is Russia singled out on a world scale in regards to trade?

[garric]

I think that the West generaly agreed that Russia is free to sell gas at prices it considers fit. The problem was they suddently, without warning, decided to rise the prices I don't know how many-fold. That is unacceptable, especially when it was clear it is just a political pressure, a punishment for Ukraine for her internal affairs.

The Ukraine deserves to be punished, for their anti-Russian stance. Actually, it's not punishment. Here's a TRUE story I'd like to share:

There was a man named Kieth and Joe. They were really good friends, and Kieth was a pretty powerful dope dealer. Since they were really good friends, Kieth gave Joe a pretty good deal on his dope, way cheaper than regular customers pay. Some time later, Joe meets up with a group of guys who think Kieth is a jackass. They don't want Joe to hang out with Kieth anymore, because they think he's a loser. Joe says some nasty things to Kieth and Kieth decides he's not going to deal with this crap and stops selling dope to Joe. If Joe wants his dope back he's going to have to pay what everyone else pays now, since they aren't friends anymore - actually, Joe is going to be lucky to get ANY dope from Kieth because of what he said. Joe realizes that he just shot himself in the foot and regrets his loss... unfortunately there's nothing he can really do for making Kieth feel bad.

This is exactly what happened with Russia. It would be irrational for JOE to demand cheaper dope from KIETH, after what he said about him, and they aren't even friends anymore so why would he give him a discount? And what right do JOE'S friends have to demand that KIETH (really, they don't even know Kieth all that well, and they don't even understand him and never will), to give JOE a discount?

 

[.Shane.]

Is that the same Kieth who was in Leprosy Pajamas? Because they rocked. Do you have a copy of their CD? I knew he partied hard, but I never imagined he was a Russian mobster. Wasn't his last name Ivanovic or something like that? I thought he went by Kieth Ivy. And, yeah, that son of a gun said the misspelling was totally intentional.

I miss that guy.

 

[Winner]

The Ukraine deserves to be punished, for their anti-Russian stance. Actually, it's not punishment. Here's a TRUE story I'd like to share:

There was a man named Kieth and Joe. They were really good friends, and Kieth was a pretty powerful dope dealer. Since they were really good friends, Kieth gave Joe a pretty good deal on his dope, way cheaper than regular customers pay. Some time later, Joe meets up with a group of guys who think Kieth is a jackass. They don't want Joe to hang out with Kieth anymore, because they think he's a loser. Joe says some nasty things to Kieth and Kieth decides he's not going to deal with this crap and stops selling dope to Joe. If Joe wants his dope back he's going to have to pay what everyone else pays now, since they aren't friends anymore - actually, Joe is going to be lucky to get ANY dope from Kieth because of what he said. Joe realizes that he just shot himself in the foot and regrets his loss... unfortunately there's nothing he can really do for making Kieth feel bad.

This is exactly what happened with Russia. It would be irrational for JOE to demand cheaper dope from KIETH, after what he said about him, and they aren't even friends anymore so why would he give him a discount? And what right do JOE'S friends have to demand that KIETH (really, they don't even know Kieth all that well, and they don't even understand him and never will), to give JOE a discount?

According to your analogy, what Ukraine said to Russia, that it deserves to be punished? Nothing. They never disputed they want to have good relations with Russia.

The story here is different - Kieth is a big bully who terrorizes the whole neighborhood and Joe has to do what he says. One day, Joe decides that he won't be such a loser anymore and he wants to have his own life. Keith reacts hysterically and almost burns Joe's house to the ground.

As I said - Russia want's to charge them for more, fine. But do it in a civilized manner. They knew they will cause huge economic problems to the new Ukrainian government and that is why they increased the prices. This is wrong, but from Russia, you can't expect kind behaviour. They still act as an imperial power. That is why is Europe concerned too.

 

[garric]

Okay, maybe Kieth is a big bully that terrorizes the neighbourhood. The point is, he keeps the neighbourhood safe and good to live in. Keith didn't burn Joe's house down - Joe burned it down himself out of his selfishness.

And Joe doesn't want to have good relationships with Kieth. Kieth is like the guy who'se been your friend forever, but you met someone you thought was cooler so Kieth is old and boring; to rub salt on Kieth's wounds, Joe follows his friend's example and tells Kieth to **** off and calls Kieth a bunch of nasty names. What right does Joe have to demand getting more CHEAP gifts from Kieth after what he did to him?

And Kieth isn't charging for more, he's charging the same he's charging everyone else. Isn't that what Joe wants? A life of his own, away from Kieth? Looks like Joe wants to have his cake and eat it too, by trying to get the cheap dope from Kieth while "living his own life" so to speak.

 

[Stormbringer]

I believe we still got some facts wrong here. No one except Europe pays market prices right now. All of Eastern Europe, including Ukraine, Belarus, Georgia, Moldavia, Romania, etc. get gas and oil at a discounted price. The price increase for Belarus was to the same level as the price increase for Ukraine, about half of the current market price for gas.

As for the timing, it was the end of the year, and the contract said that a new price is to be negotiated by the end of the year. When Ukraine refused to pay an increased price and continued to demand that it get gas at 1/6 of the market price Russia stopped selling gas. Contract expired at the end of the year and since there was no new one there is no reason to sell gas to Ukraine.

Again, was politics involved in the decision to be so harsh? Probably. But hell, I still dont know why Russia bothers to subsidize all of Eastern Europe, and especially Ukraine and Georgia who do all they can to annoy and poke at Russia.

 

[Rik Meleet]

Just shoot Kieth and the neighbourhood will sigh of relief.

Back to the original question: "Why is Russia singled out on a world scale in regards to trade?"
Because Russia (ab)uses his near monopoly as a political weapon. Others don't like that. If you want Russia no longer singled out, play fair then.

 

[garric]

Just shoot Kieth and the neighbourhood will sigh of relief.

Back to the original question: "Why is Russia singled out on a world scale in regards to trade?"
Because Russia (ab)uses his near monopoly as a political weapon. Others don't like that. If you want Russia no longer singled out, play fair then.

Russia gives discounts and ungrateful countries spit in their face while demanding more cheap gas? And are you telling me that other countries don't use oil advantage as political leverage? *cough* OPEC *cough* VENUZUELA *cough* MEXICO *cough*

BTW, most of Russia's oil and gas are under the control of an evil monopoly.

 

[Rik Meleet]

Russia gives discounts and ungrateful countries spit in their face while demanding more cheap gas? And are you telling me that other countries don't use oil advantage as political leverage? *cough* OPEC *cough* VENUZUELA *cough* MEXICO *cough*

BTW, most of Russia's oil and gas are under the control of an evil monopoly.

Does that answer your own question ?

 

[downtown]

You'll notice that Mexico and OPEC catch a lot of crap for using oil as leverage as well. People arent just picking on Russia you know

 

[HannibalBarka]

Well that is international politics Sir. Every country try to defend its interests against others, and it's always a fine line between using every mean they have without too upsetting others too much. The USA are singled out for Gitmo, Kyoto, Iraq, etc, the EU for ACP, China for human rights, Tibet etc, and Russia for Chenchenya and Gazprom. It is against the US and the EU interest that Ukraine stays in Russia sphere of influence, so they use what ever they can find to pressure Russia. But honestly, I don't see why should Russia even have to sell gas to Ukraine if they don't want to in the first place, no matter what the price is. It's their gaz they have every right to use it as they see fit.

 

[warpus]

With the advent of the "orange" revolution, Ukraine moved away from Russian sphere of influence, flaunting and taunting Russia all the way. They have no more loyalty to Russia and are somewhat openly hostile to the Russian government in political affairs. Russia stopped allowing the Ukranians play it both ways - being hostile to Russia while enjoying the benefits of cheap oil and gas. Had the Ukraine agreed to pay market prices for oil this whole fiasco would have been averted, yet they chose not to.

The Ukraine hasn't moved away from Russia's sphere of influence. The Russians control more than you might think in a lot of ex-Soviet republics.

The Ukrainians wanted to stop Russian meddling in their sovereign affairs - accepting cheap oil/gas from Russia also means accepting Russian influence and giving concessions to Russian demands in some matters.

 

[blackheart]

You'll notice that Mexico and OPEC catch a lot of crap for using oil as leverage as well. People arent just picking on Russia you know

Yea, but garric will conveniently ignore the fact because he's very pro-Russia.

 

[garric]

Yea, but garric will conveniently ignore the fact because he's very pro-Russia.

No I won't, why do you tell me what I should do?

 

[blackheart]

No I won't, why do you tell me what I should do?

I stated what you have already done, unless you didn't bother researching before you posted the OP.

 

[garric]

I stated what you have already done, unless you didn't bother researching before you posted the OP.

Yet again your argument doesn't really have much to do with the topic. While Mexico, Venezuela, and the Middle East are often criticized for using oil as leverage, this is a very old topic, and these countries are often very well defended by liberals. There seems to be a wide consensus against Russia, however, from both liberals and conservatives. The Russia topic is somewhat a current event, also.

Not to mention that we're not even discussing Russia's so called "monopoly" used as a political lever, we're discussing why Russia is singled out for making people pay market prices while the rest of the world already purchases oil for market prices already.

 

[blackheart]

Yet again your argument doesn't really have much to do with the topic. While Mexico, Venezuela, and the Middle East are often criticized for using oil as leverage, this is a very old topic, and these countries are often very well defended by liberals. There seems to be a wide consensus against Russia, however, from both liberals and conservatives. The Russia topic is somewhat a current event, also.

What "liberals" defend the oil leverage that Mexico, Venezuela, and the Middle EasT use?

Not to mention that we're not even discussing Russia's so called "monopoly" used as a political lever, we're discussing why Russia is singled out for making people pay market prices while the rest of the world already purchases oil for market prices already.

One leads to another as already explained. Winner explained it already:

"The story here is different - Kieth is a big bully who terrorizes the whole neighborhood and Joe has to do what he says. One day, Joe decides that he won't be such a loser anymore and he wants to have his own life. Keith reacts hysterically and almost burns Joe's house to the ground.

As I said - Russia want's to charge them for more, fine. But do it in a civilized manner. They knew they will cause huge economic problems to the new Ukrainian government and that is why they increased the prices. This is wrong, but from Russia, you can't expect kind behaviour. They still act as an imperial power. That is why is Europe concerned too."

 

[downtown]

where has any liberal defended OPEC? They make liberals form at the mouth in fury

 

[Commy]

BTW, most of Russia's oil and gas are under the control of an evil monopoly.

See my signature .

But honestly, I don't see why should Russia even have to sell gas to Ukraine if they don't want to in the first place, no matter what the price is. It's their gaz they have every right to use it as they see fit.

Agree with it.

They still act as an imperial power.

1) USSR was not an empire.
2) The act of imperial power was if Russia moved our tanks to Ukraine.

 

[garric]

2) The act of imperial power was if Russia moved our tanks to Ukraine.

Eh, don't worry about it. To these people, any act can be considered an imperialistic show of power.

"where has any liberal defended OPEC? They make liberals form at the mouth in fury"

Liberals tend to be pro-OPEC for punishing the United States for their "imperialistic actions", and that OPEC in a way supports a leftist alliance.

 

[Gelion]

I think that the West generaly agreed that Russia is free to sell gas at prices it considers fit. The problem was they suddently, without warning, decided to rise the prices I don't know how many-fold. That is unacceptable, especially when it was clear it is just a political pressure, a punishment for Ukraine for her internal affairs.

Negotiations for cheaper gas prices began IN SPRING 2005 and were initiated by UKRANIE. Now how does your point stand?