Why so silent?

[thecrazyscot]

I go by the definition that once the next generation as been born and raised in that land their fathers stole, it belongs to them.

By this definition than the majority of Israel is now by right the Israelis.

It should be rather obvious that - even if you disagree with Israel - the Palestinians are NOT the kind of people who deserve to be emulated. While Israel develops electric cars, improves medicine and produces microchips, all the Palestinians do is nothing but committing terrorist attacks. I don't care whether more Palestinians than Israelis die in this conflict, and in fact, the Palestinian reliance on quantity as opposed to quality in their reasoning, might very well accentuate the very feebleness of their ideas, culture and role in the world stage. If you are looking for any reason why I always had that obsession with Israel despite I do not live there, here you have it.

Is this sarcasm? Am I missing something?

 

[useless]

Because as we all know, Palestinian "attacks" occur in a vacuum; no context, no reasoning beyond their sheer hatred of Jews.

Maybe Palestinians would be able to concentrate on offering technological advantages if Israel wasn't collectively punishing the whole lot of them by bombing their schools, hospitals etc, but let's not mention that because it is at odds with your view of Israeli's somehow being "enlightened" compared to those evil, savage Palestinians who if they would only stop, Israel will suddenly stop oppressing them like it has done for the last century or so.

 

[Antilogic]

What about squatters' rights?

How long is a person allowed to leave his land vacant before he can no longer evict any opportunistic squatters?

Does that squatter have the backing of a technologically advanced first world military?

WARNING: Rambling follows, proceed with caution!

It's really weird that people automatically assume that Jewish settlers are evil racists who steal land. Some of them are, yet it is quite telling how people who pride themselves on their open mindedness and supposed lack of ethnic prejudice automatically assume that all atheists and rabbinical Jews who live in West Bank stole land.

Fact is, I was Pro-Palestinian myself. And I ended up despising those activists, because managed to see them for what they are: Guillable group-thinking idiots. Simply because the Palestinians are the weaker side and non-white, doesn't mean they are automatically the side you should support. A lot of their suffering can be directly attributed to their own foolish decisions, as cruel as it may sound, and they could make significant strides in improving their lot by looking in the mirror first before blaming the Israelis for every hardship they suffer.

It should be rather obvious that - even if you disagree with Israel - the Palestinians are NOT the kind of people who deserve to be emulated. While Israel develops electric cars, improves medicine and produces microchips, all the Palestinians do is nothing but committing terrorist attacks. I don't care whether more Palestinians than Israelis die in this conflict, and in fact, the Palestinian reliance on quantity as opposed to quality in their reasoning, might very well accentuate the very feebleness of their ideas, culture and role in the world stage. If you are looking for any reason why I always had that obsession with Israel despite I do not live there, here you have it.

So I've been switching Israel and Palestine in a few posts here just to expose the kinda inherent rasism, but this is so explicit I'll just let it stand in eternity in this quote.

EDIT: I hope it's sarcasm, just to be clear. But it's pretty believable that a number of people think about the conflict in those terms.

 

[Ajidica]

Does that squatter have the backing of a technologically advanced first world military?

And nukes.
Don't forget nukes.
Can't forget that warm, happy, feel of radiation.

 

[useless]

I have a hard time believing tover was ever pro-palestinian with that stance

 

[Borachio]

I've read the post a couple of times. It does seem remarkably racist.

Either that, or Palestinians are just plain inferior, and deserve all they get.

 

[jackelgull]

WARNING: Rambling follows, proceed with caution!

It's really weird that people automatically assume that Jewish settlers are evil racists who steal land. Some of them are, yet it is quite telling how people who pride themselves on their open mindedness and supposed lack of ethnic prejudice automatically assume that all atheists and rabbinical Jews who live in West Bank stole land.

Fact is, I was Pro-Palestinian myself. And I ended up despising those activists, because managed to see them for what they are: Guillable group-thinking idiots. Simply because the Palestinians are the weaker side and non-white, doesn't mean they are automatically the side you should support. A lot of their suffering can be directly attributed to their own foolish decisions, as cruel as it may sound, and they could make significant strides in improving their lot by looking in the mirror first before blaming the Israelis for every hardship they suffer.

It should be rather obvious that - even if you disagree with Israel - the Palestinians are NOT the kind of people who deserve to be emulated. While Israel develops electric cars, improves medicine and produces microchips, all the Palestinians do is nothing but committing terrorist attacks. I don't care whether more Palestinians than Israelis die in this conflict, and in fact, the Palestinian reliance on quantity as opposed to quality in their reasoning, might very well accentuate the very feebleness of their ideas, culture and role in the world stage. If you are looking for any reason why I always had that obsession with Israel despite I do not live there, here you have it.

Israel has had more opportunity than Palestine to make something of itself. What resources does Palestine honestly have? Nothing besides population. And whatever infrastructure and business they do make is threatened by Israel rockets that happen to miss Hamas. I suppose one can argue back and forth about how it's Palestine's fault for electing Hamas, but they probably saw him as their best choice, because the only other option is to roll over and take whatever is happening to them. A history of antagonism has fostered ill will on both sides, so it is unlikely that a better kinder more humane solution will be found until both sides realize that being right is not as important as doing right. However, I feel to place the burden squarely on one side is unfair. Honestly the most realistic outcome of this conflict is the end of the Palestinians as a people because they don't have any real allies. The West only gives lip service, and the reason the Arab world dislikes Israel is because its forced deportation policies over runs their country with Palestinian immigrants who they would rather not deal with. I can't really stand with either side because there's a complex variation of motives and beliefs on either side. I can only look sadly and think there's something quite tragic about the whole situation with no easy answer. Not that I matter.

 

[Tahuti]

I hope it's sarcasm, just to be clear. But it's pretty believable that a number of people think about the conflict in those terms.

I'd wish I could say it was sarcasm myself, but I just cannot afford the same blissfulness that you have. If you go out and look what kind of people are out there, like I did, you will see that some people examplify ugliness itself and make decisions that lead them to be failures. Let them. It's how life works.

I've read the post a couple of times. It does seem remarkably racist.

Either that, or Palestinians are just plain inferior, and deserve all they get.

I don't actually believe in terms of race or ethnicity. Some people will be born as idiots, though that virtually never has to do with their race or colour. In fact, if you read carefully, you could have discerned advice directed towards the Palestinians on what I would do in their position (i.e. the mirror part).

However, every culture has a certain set of values. For the Palestinians, their primary values are resentment and jealousy, which are of course chiefly directed towards Israel, though it would just as problematic if those were projected onto, say Britain or Egypt. If you live in a culture like the ones of the Palestinians as freely thinking individual, this is a severe punishment. And for what?

If the whole humanity ever becomes like that, we are bound to become extinct. We can never aspire to ever outdo ourselves if that happens at any rate. It isn't as much taking a side in a conflict as it a serious form of cultural criticism. Giving that sympathising with this rather savage culture is becoming fashionable among the educated classes, this is not something I can ignore.

 

[Borachio]

I think it's true that some individuals do behave badly. I just don't think that you can claim that several million people in a particular location with a particular history behave badly.

Well, you can claim it. But other people will likely claim that that's what racism is. It is literally prejudging people. It's racial prejudice, aka racism.

 

[Tahuti]

I think it's true that some individuals do behave badly. I just don't think that you can claim that several million people in a particular location with a particular history behave badly.

Well, you can claim it. But other people will likely claim that that's what racism is. It is literally prejudging people. It's racial prejudice, aka racism.

I get what you mean. However, while I am a proud Dutchman, I occasionally object to cultural traits of ourselves. Does that mean I am a self-hating Dutchman? If I am to take your definition of racism, I apparently am.

It is difficult to properly word such things without appearing racist though. When I say that Palestinian culture has a bad influence globally, I am not saying that Palestinians cannot be decent human beings. It is however no secret that I do believe it becomes a significantly more daunting task to be a decent human being when you have the bad luck of getting born within that culture.

Israel has had more opportunity than Palestine to make something of itself. What resources does Palestine honestly have? Nothing besides population. And whatever infrastructure and business they do make is threatened by Israel rockets that happen to miss Hamas.

You have to think bigger. At the beginning of the 20th century until the establishment of Israel, Palestinians were the dominant ethnic group of the Holy land. The odds were against the Zionists. Yet ultimately, they prevailed. And continued to survive even in the face of being overwhelmingly outnumbered by other countries in 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973. If you put things into perspective, you will notice that the odds always seemed to be against them. Surviving a literal horde while being massively outnumbered is a mark of nobility. There is no other way to describe it.

 

[Leonel]

You have to think bigger. At the beginning of the 20th century until the establishment of Israel, Palestinians were the dominant ethnic group of the Holy land. The odds were against the Zionists. Yet ultimately, they prevailed. And continued to survive even in the face of being overwhelmingly outnumbered by other countries in 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973. If you put things into perspective, you will notice that the odds always seemed to be against them. Surviving a literal horde while being massively outnumbered is a mark of nobility. There is no other way to describe it.

It also helps to have $3.1 billion of financial backing of one of the biggest superpowers in history.

 

[Borachio]

You have to think bigger. At the beginning of the 20th century until the establishment of Israel, Palestinians were the dominant ethnic group of the Holy land. The odds were against the Zionists. Yet ultimately, they prevailed. And continued to survive even in the face of being overwhelmingly outnumbered by other countries in 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973. If you put things into perspective, you will notice that the odds always seemed to be against them. Surviving a literal horde while being massively outnumbered is a mark of nobility. There is no other way to describe it.

What makes you think the game is over as far as the Palestinians are concerned, though?

If the Zionists can prevail against overwhelming odds, why can't the Palestinians? Just because they haven't so far, doesn't mean that they won't ever.

It really doesn't pay (never mind that it isn't fair) to discount millions of people.

 

[Tahuti]

It also helps to have $3.1 billion of financial backing of one of the biggest superpowers in history.

I do admire how a country as small as Israel is able to sollicit aid from the US, out of sheer respect instead of pity.

What makes you think the game is over as far as the Palestinians are concerned, though?

If the Zionists can prevail against overwhelming odds, why can't the Palestinians? Just because they haven't so far, doesn't mean that they won't ever.

If the Palestinians wish to defeat the Israelis, they first need to change the way they think about, well, practically everything. The problem is that the Palestinian groups play to lose, because so doing will cause most people to see Israel as the bad guy, which is what they want.

The Palestinians might have gotten their state and the opportunity to thrive if they conceded defeat and gave in to Israeli demands. They can then always start another war with Israel if they want to destroy it so bad in the long term. However, they seem more interested in painting Israelis as the bad guys before the world than with their own survival or honour. And it seems to work. They actively seek to be miserable, while the Israelis seek self-respect.

Once you look to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that way, that is, in a qualitative manner, it is hard to imagine why you would want to be for Palestine. I doubt most people have that kind of courage to admit such this frankly.

 

[Ajidica]

Since apparently "the Palestinians" are some sort of Borg hive-mind, you know where I can buy that technology? Becoming emperor of the world would be much easier if I could just hive-mind everyone.

 

[Borachio]

If the Palestinians wish to defeat the Israelis, they first need to change the way they think about, well, practically everything. The problem is that the Palestinian groups play to lose, because so doing will cause most people to see Israel as the bad guy, which is what they want.

The Palestinians might have gotten their state and the opportunity to thrive if they conceded defeat. They can then always start another war with Israel if they want to destroy it so bad in the long term. However, they seem more interested in painting Israelis as the bad guys before the world than with their own survival or honour. And it seems to work. They actively seek to be miserable, while the Israelis seek self-respect.

Once you look to the Israeli-Palestinian that way, that is, in a qualitative manner, it is hard to imagine why you would want to be for Palestine. I doubt most people have that kind of courage to admit such this frankly.

I can grant that the Palestinians can be thought to be "playing to lose", at the moment. And that they need to change their long term strategy.

But I also think they are already in the process of changing their strategy, while continuing to play the public global relations game. (Which they're not playing as well as the Israelis just yet.)

I don't follow your conclusion at all, though. Do you only support the side that's winning, then? That would seem to be a very strange basis for morality you have there. My own cultural stereotype would have me support the losing team every time.

And how do you decide who to vote for at election time? Ah right, I remember, you don't participate in democratic processes, do you?

 

[Tahuti]

Since apparently "the Palestinians" are some sort of Borg hive-mind, you know where I can buy that technology? Becoming emperor of the world would be much easier if I could just hive-mind everyone.

To be honest, the Palestinian people at large aren't the problem. It are their leaders, and their sympathisers elsewhere (i.e. people who take too many classes in international law). I pick being an IDF soldier over a snotty know-it-all international law professor any time of the day.

I don't follow your conclusion at all, though. Do you only support the side that's winning, then? That would seem to be a very strange basis for morality you have there.

I don't support the winning side because it is winning. When I pick a side in whatever conflict, I support the side who is underpinned by what I think are the best kind of values. The one I believe deserves to win: The one side that actively plays to win and uses creativity to do so.

 

[Camikaze]

I don't know if we're being as silent. My country is conducting military strikes against ISIS.

There's less rage, I'll grant. And yeah, it smells of hypocrisy

Australia is also taking military action against ISIS, so it seems strange for classical_hero to suggest that no-one cares. I agree there's less rage, but I think that's because it's less controversial. Everyone hates ISIS, and the debate is generally about the degree of response rather than whether there should be any sort of response at all. The Israel/Palestine conflict, though, is much more divisive, and protests are usually directed at those who think that no action need be taken against Israel. Those sorts of protests aren't really possible in relation to ISIS, because there's no-one to protest against.

 

[Ajidica]

To be honest, the Palestinian people at large aren't the problem. It are their leaders, and their sympathisers elsewhere (i.e. people who take too many classes in international law). I pick being an IDF soldier over a snotty know-it-all international law professor any time of the day.

Okay, but that still doesn't address the fact that you treat "The Palestinians" as if they were some sort of hive mind where everyone thinks and behaves the same. Given that Palestine is split between two opposed political groups it is unhelpful to lump them into the same amorphous blob.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

There is not outrage because we all agree ISIS is absolute evil and must be destroyed, and in fact the west, leaded by USA, is currently bombing them and supporting whoever fight them. In Israel case otoh there is place for discussion so both sides are more vocal, with ISIS we all agree they are murderous savages, so there is not wonder when they kill anybody, there is not discussion, ence the silence.

 

[Antilogic]

I'd wish I could say it was sarcasm myself, but I just cannot afford the same blissfulness that you have. If you go out and look what kind of people are out there, like I did, you will see that some people examplify ugliness itself and make decisions that lead them to be failures. Let them. It's how life works.

I don't think it's blissful optimism to suggest that a significant fraction if not an outright majority of Palestinians want lasting peace and the dignity that comes with nationhood.

To use the actions of a smaller fraction of terrorists to justify the continued occupation and absolute destitution of the Palestinians, not to mention outright condemning them all, without exception, as criminal supporters of terrorists, idiots, the bullied "stop hitting yourself" victims, etc. to the point where they aren't even human or have lives that are worth even a single of your effs...

That's just sad, man.

To be honest, the Palestinian people at large aren't the problem. It are their leaders, and their sympathisers elsewhere (i.e. people who take too many classes in international law). I pick being an IDF soldier over a snotty know-it-all international law professor any time of the day.

No, it's not even all their leaders. The West Bank is governed by the only player in the area that has taken concrete action to actually support a two-state solution (Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist, the Likud coalition which governs Israel does not recognize Palestine's right to exist).