[RD] Why y'all always trying to defend Nazis?

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What gets me about all this "oh noes mah white black ppl" stuff is, since when did we all become "white black people"? Has Civver been to Europe Africa, or even met a European African? There's no "white black people" here, not in the sense he means. Europeans Africans hate each other, Europeans Africans have spent centuries killing each other. The last European African genocide ended in 1995. The last European African civil war is still ongoing. How naive can a person be, to imagine that "white black people" are one big happy family?
Here. Do you still stand by these views?

You are, of course, strawmanning me. I never said white people were one big happy family. That doesn't mean they don't have anything in common. They're as much a group as Hispanic Americans or African Americans.
 
Here. Do you still stand by these views?
Of course I do. Africans are even less a happy family than Europeans. Do you assume that everyone to the left of Pinochet is an Afrocentrist?

You are, of course, strawmanning me. I never said white people were one big happy family. That doesn't mean they don't have anything in common. They're as much a group as Hispanic Americans or African Americans.
And members of those groups have things in common with each other. A Catholic congregation may include Guatemalans, Haitians and Filipinos alongside Italians and Poles. A lilly-white Spaniard, a deeply-tanned Mexican and a jet-black Puerto Rican are likely to share a mother tongue. Everyone who isn't English is united in shared hatred of the English. Why do you assume that something as superficial as skin-tone is such an overriding aspect of human identity?
 
What gets me about all this "oh noes mah white ppl" stuff is, since when did we all become "white people"? Has Civver been to Europe, or even met a European? There's no "white people" here, not in the sense he means. Europeans hate each other, Europeans have spent centuries killing each other. The last European genocide ended in 1995. The last European civil war is still ongoing. How naive can a person be, to imagine that "white people" are one big happy family?

Just last Saturday, and not for the first time, I had the pleasure of spending a subway journey with a dozen half-cut Loyalists, cheerfully declaring "We're up to our knees in Fenian blood/Surrender or you'll die", and I'll leave it to the reader to decode that subtle lyricism. But I'm supposed to believe that we're all really on the same team, just because some poor sod called "Ahmed" doesn't like pork?

Nah. Pish.
What I wonder is, why are you reacting to this only toward Civver ? Lexicus spent his whole time putting all "white" in one big group, and rewriting the whole dictionary to be able to claim that they are the source of all evil on Earth, or putting all "blacks" into one single group, but it doesn't seem to bother you in either case.
But as soon as Civver start to talk about "white pride", then you jump on his back.
Where is the consistency, man ?
 
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Of course I do. Africans are even less a happy family than Europeans. Do you assume that everyone to the left of Pinochet is an Afrocentrist?
No, but you do talk an awful lot about the plight of this supposedly imaginary "black people" group.

And members of those groups have things in common with each other. A Catholic congregation may include Guatemalans, Haitians and Filipinos alongside Italians and Poles. A lilly-white Spaniard, a deeply-tanned Mexican and a jet-black Puerto Rican are likely to share a mother tongue. Everyone who isn't English is united in shared hatred of the English. Why do you assume that something as superficial as skin-tone is such an overriding aspect of human identity?
Who said anything about overriding? You know by "white" I mean "European ancestry", right? I'm not talking literally about the color of someone's skin. We can understand races as a collection of similar ethnicities. This is undoubtedly an aspect of identity for people, especially in a multi-racial society like America. It's not the only aspect, but it one of them. That is the basis by which we come up with concepts like "hispanic pride" or "black pride".
 
Hmm...tell me more about white supremacy as a symptom of capitalist exploitation (I assume this is what you mean?). I'm curious about this. I hope it doesn't mean what I think it means.

The traditional Marxist analysis of race is that white supremacy is, very crudely put, a way of dividing and conquering the working class. The greatest threat to the class power of capitalism is working class solidarity, so the capitalists introduce artificial divisions of race and ethnicity into the working class.

That's not the full story, of course; given that racism clearly predates industrial capitalism, it couldn't be. And it would be untrue to say that capitalists are merely cynical in their exploitation of white supremacy; a lot of them are of courses sincere racists. But that is the basic mechanism.

This is actually the school of thought from which the whole concept of "white privilege" derives, although the way bourgeois liberals wield the term, you'd hardly know it.

Capitalism how I define it was developing well before the industrial revolution, with the earliest enslavement of the native peoples of the Caribbean by Western European travelers. Actually I could make a pretty strong argument that a mode of ownership that could be called capitalism was first ever seen in Southern Song China back in the ~12-13 century.

As to plantations and mining operations in Western European colonies back in the 16th century, we know that the labor was organized in an essentially post-feudal way, but also in a proto-capitalist way. However, once the dust had settled and the Spanish colonizers developed the early encomienda system, many of the native workers were even payed for their labor with capital. This is what I trace as the earliest developments of western capitalism, not the industrial exploitation of workers in Belgium or Britain.

If we then look at slavery in the English colonies, as well as indentured servitude, we can recognize that often times the way that these enslaved workers were compensated resembled capital as well-- food, shelter, clothing, transport. These resources often even gained bartering power in the communities of the exploited. Now, obviously, this is an idyllic view of the brutal "work-or-die" exploitation that slavery actually is, but there were actually similar conditions in the factories that would exploit "voluntary" laborers come the industrial revolution. Of course there is the immensely important difference of freedom and the social rights that entails, but on a macroeconomic scale the mode of production by which the slave was forced to produce a resource or die, and that resource was then commandeered by the person who owned the means of producing that resource, is essentially capitalistic in nature. The primary difference being that the slave is seen as the property of the slaveowner as opposed to the industrial worker's labor being the equivalent of the property in question.

Now everyone knows imperialism and later slavery by the Western world against Africa and the Americas led directly to the development of racism as we know it today-- it's just by noting that slavery and imperialism were themselves the primary methods by which the earliest capitalists exploited labor that we can realize how white supremacy is a product of capitalism. By the crude method of considering the laborer themself the property of the capitalist, dehumanization became the normal way to perceive POC, thus leading to modern racism.
 
No, but you do talk an awful lot about the plight of this supposedly imaginary "black people" group.
We're talking about black Americans, the greater majority of whom are descended from a single distinct ethnic group, the African-descended people of of the American South. Africa is an entirely different continent, on the other side of an ocean.

Who said anything about overriding? You know by "white" I mean "European ancestry", right? I'm not talking literally about the color of someone's skin. We can understand races as a collection of similar ethnicities. This is undoubtedly an aspect of identity for people, especially in a multi-racial society like America. It's not the only aspect, but it one of them. That is the basis by which we come up with concepts like "hispanic pride" or "black pride".
What's similar about a Swede and a Serb? A Basque and a Bulgarian? The only thing they have in common is that most of them are Christian, something which they share with Assyrians and Ethiopians, and that they have a fuzzily romantic view of Greece and Rome, something which they share with Turks and Egyptians. "White people" had to cross an ocean to decide that being "white" was so terribly central to their being as you imagine, and if you count the number of Irish bars, Italian resturaunts and Polish delis in a city like New York, a lot of them are still clearly hedging their bets on that one.

Also, I don't think "Hispanic pride" is actually thing. Chicano and Puerto Rican groups have always been pretty clear about their distinct identities. Hispanic is a statistical and occasionally political category, it's not really a cultural one beyond the practicalities of shared language.
 
I would probably just move on because I don't care about the Edmund Fitzgerald.

You wouldn't be more than a little suspicious of their grasp on reality if someone went around saying that the Edmund Fitzgerald didn't sink?

What I wouldn't do, is assume that the person saying that was doing so because they secretly wish to commit genocide against the people of Minnesota. That's entering crazy-land.
So, what secret wish does a Holocaust denier have?
 
We're talking about black Americans, the greater majority of whom are descended from a single distinct ethnic group, the African-descended people of of the American South. Africa is an entirely different continent, on the other side of an ocean.
Ok, and I'm talking about white Americans.

What's similar about a Swede and a Serb? A Basque and a Bulgarian? The only thing they have in common is that most of them are Christian, something which they share with Assyrians and Ethiopians, and that they have a fuzzily romantic view of Greece and Rome, something which they share with Turks and Egyptians.
You're talking about this in a very particular way. It's like you're trying to put white people down, as if to say "don't you dare identify with each other, anything that you think you have in common is actually stupid." Why such a critical tone?

If there's a guy from England, a guy from France, and a guy from Poland they will naturally put themselves into 3 different groups. But let's say that someone from Japan and someone from China comes along. They will still maintain their sub identities of English/France/Polish but they will also now have a new identity of European or White, compared against the other group of Asian.

So it's not that white people have everything in common with one another, it's just that as a rule they have more in common with each other than with people farther away. This is why people take on racial identities in multi-racial societies like America.

"WhiteBlack people" had to cross an ocean to decide that being "whiteblack" was so terribly central to their being as you imagine, and if you count the number of Irish barsBlack churches, Italian resturauntsBlack clubs and Polish delisBlack take-out in a city like New York, a lot of them are still clearly hedging their bets on that one.
What about now?

Also, I don't think "Hispanic pride" is actually thing. Chicano and Puerto Rican groups have always been pretty clear about their distinct identities. Hispanic is a statistical and occasionally political category, it's not really a cultural one beyond the practicalities of shared language.
This is the first result on google images:

Spoiler :
hispanicheritageday.jpg


You wouldn't be more than a little suspicious of their grasp on reality if someone went around saying that the Edmund Fitzgerald didn't sink?
Nah I couldn't care less tbh.
 
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Greece and Rome

I had to smirk here a fair bit.
And i'd ammend "and/or", since few things have ever filled me with as much a warm glow of patriotism in my bowels as seeing some smug exceptionalist imperialist of the worst (read: English) kind getting the tar kicked out of him.

Which of course, all serves to demonstrate your point.^^
 
Also, I don't think "Hispanic pride" is actually thing. Chicano and Puerto Rican groups have always been pretty clear about their distinct identities. Hispanic is a statistical and occasionally political category, it's not really a cultural one beyond the practicalities of shared language.
I'm Hispanic. While you'll find plenty of annoyingly loud reminders of exactly what craphole country any individual Hispanic may hail from, you'll often see that "Hispanic" behavior. That is to say, loud, obnoxious, overly-friendly, probably Catholic, and constant reminders of their strong family ties. If that doesn't represent a general culture, I don't what does.
 
Nah I couldn't care less tbh.
That commitment to intellectual honesty speaks volumes about you.

I mean, if you don't care if a person believes the Edmund Fitzgerald sank, why should you be even a little dubious if a person were to make a claim that CNN is part of a Judeo-Bolshevik conspiracy?

ashendashin said:
That is to say, loud, obnoxious, overly-friendly, probably Catholic, and constant reminders of their strong family ties.
Throw criminal in there and you got a good description of Australians.
 
Throw criminal in there and you got a good description of Australians.
Heh, it's true that it might be a bit universal. There's still music, shared problems in countries, criminal cultures, language to a degree, and other such things that influence a general culture. Hispanics are certainly easily defined anyhow.
 
Ok, and I'm talking about white Americans.
White Americans do not represent a distinct or coherent ethnic group, but rather dozens of ethnic groups. There's English, Irish and Welshmen, there's Slovaks, Sorbs and Slovenes. There's Texas Wends and Pennsylvania Dutch. There's no common narrative, no common sense of history or descent, that they do not also share with with Americans of any racial background. There's nothing which binds them together as "white" beyond the very white supremacy which you so strenuously deny exists in any form.

"African-Americans" represent a distinct group because they represent a shared identity and historical experience. Africans from dozens or hundreds of Africans groups, sometimes by way of the Caribbean, were tossed together into the melting pot of Southern slave agriculture, and developed dialects, customs and practices of surprising coherence across a broad geographic area. They're varied, yes, and a lot of what we think of as Southern black culture is the result of a second melting pot, the Northern cities in which blacks from Virginia, Georgia and Mississippi all rubbed shoulders, their local peculiarities merging into a single local "black" culture- but that itself speaks to some underlying common experience, just as the gradual dissolving of Irish county-identities (hugely important in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries) into an overarching "Irish-American" identity spoke to a common Irish experience.

Now, there are white analogues: Yankees are overwhelmingly white, and the greater majority of Cajuns and Quebecois are white. The Appalachians represent a distinct ethnic group, although it's not been clearly articulated. You might even argue that the decline of explicit German and Scandinavian identities created a new "Midwestern Protestant" ethnic group, although again it's not been clearly articulate. But nothing comparable to the experience of Africans in America, no single "white experience" stretching from Maine to Florida and from Pennsylvania to Oregon. There never has been, and it's hard to see how there ever really could be.

You're talking about this in a very particular way. It's like you're trying to put white people down, as if to say "don't you dare identify with each other, anything that you think you have in common is actually stupid." Why such a critical tone?
There are a lot of reasons, but I'll give you a personal one. I'm an Irish Catholic who grew up in West of Scotland, my ancestors spent four hundred years clinging onto their identity under the boot of English and Anglo-Scots imperialism, watching their culture and language die by inches. I live in Glasgow; there are whole organisations devoted to reminding me of that, who hold parades that pass under my very window. To subsume myself into some great "white" mass would be the final defeat. If you think that heritage is important, well, my heritage is telling Saxons that they can póg mo thóin.

If there's a guy from England, a guy from France, and a guy from Poland they will naturally put themselves into 3 different groups. But let's say that someone from Japan and someone from China comes along. They will still maintain their sub identities of English/France/Polish but they will also now have a new identity of European or White, compared against the other group of Asian.

So it's not that white people have everything in common with one another, it's just that as a rule they have more in common with each other than with people farther away. This is why people take on racial identities in multi-racial societies like America.
But if you put the guy from France next to a guy from Lebanon, and then introduce a Chinese person, it's likely that the guy from France and the guy from Lebanon will tend to identify some commonalities that the Chinese person lacks. If you put a guy from Spain next to a guy from Italy, and then introduce a guy from Norway, it's likely that the Spaniard and Italian will invent themselves a similar "Latin" identity. And of course, some could go either way: if we put a Croat next to a Serb and a Slovene, will he identify himself with his co-religionist or his co-linguist, or both, or neither? (There's precedent for all three.)

The point is not that some cultures are not more similar to certain cultures than they are to certain other cultures. The point is that these do not naturally emerge as "races". Your example of the Englishman, Frenchmen and Pole only supports this alleged "white" identity because you've have constructed it to create that distinction. It's smokes and mirrors- a lie, really. Take the Chinese person out of the equation, and what new identities form? Do the Western Europeans identity themselves against the post-Soviet Slav, the Continental Catholics against the Protestant island-monkey, the hard-drinking Northerners against the wine-sipping Southerners? If we invert it, place a Chinese, Korean and Japanese person together and the introduce an Englishman, do the the former invent a new "Asian" identity, or do they just note that one of the foreigners could stand to get out in the sun more often?

How people imagine these supra-ethnic groups is a question of how people choose to imagine themselves. There's nothing inevitable in it that tends towards your archaic Victorian concepts of "race".

What about now?
What about what? Are you saying that African-Americans represent a distinct ethnic group? I have argued as much. Are you saying that it took the experience of slavery for Africans to go from thinking of themselves as "people" to thinking of themselves as "black people"? Obviously that's true.

I don't really know what point you thought you were making.

This is the first result on google images:

Spoiler :
hispanicheritageday.jpg


Nah I couldn't care less tbh.
The US Postal Service is not, as far as I know, a Hispanic-American cultural organisation. I would not mistake expressions of goodwill for an authentic expression of Hispanic identities.
 
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Throw criminal in there and you got a good description of Australians.

Eh, Anglo/Celtic Australians aren't especially big on the family stuff really.
 
I'm Hispanic. While you'll find plenty of annoyingly loud reminders of exactly what craphole country any individual Hispanic may hail from, you'll often see that "Hispanic" behavior. That is to say, loud, obnoxious, overly-friendly, probably Catholic, and constant reminders of their strong family ties. If that doesn't represent a general culture, I don't what does.

Filipinos too, although we were also colonized by the Spanish
 
To be honest, it's a description that sounds like someone started with stereotypical Americans WASPs and worked backward. You could take a world map and draw a circle just about here,

WOz6XIV.png


And anybody who didn't trace their origins to inside the circle would identify with this characterisation of "Hispanic" culture to some degree or another.

Northern Europeans are basically the most chilly, standoffish, least-fun people in world history, but through historical circumstance have ended up dictating the baseline cultural expectations of the English-speaking internet. ("English-speaking" is probably an important clue, there.)
 
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Eh. The poor English can party too. Then rich folks around the world are just as stuffy.
 
Eh. The poor English can party too. Then rich folks around the world are just as stuffy.
I mean, if you call taking a fistful of eckies and then jumping up and down until your brain comes out of your nose "partying". They're kind of going nought to fifty on the whole "fun" thing.
 
To be honest, it's a description that sounds like someone started with stereotypical Americans WASPs and worked backward. You could take a world map and draw a circle just about here,

WOz6XIV.png


And anybody who didn't trace their origins to inside the circle would identify with this characterisation of "Hispanic" culture to some degree or another.

Northern Europeans are basically the most chilly, standoffish, least-fun people in world history, but through historical circumstance have ended up dictating the baseline cultural expectations of the English-speaking internet. ("English-speaking" is probably an important clue, there.)


Not fair at all.

The people wanting a WASP America aren't nearly as white as they think they are.



White Nationalists Are Flocking to Genetic Ancestry Tests--with Surprising Results
Sometimes they find they are not as “white” as they’d hoped

It was a strange moment of triumph against racism: The gun-slinging white supremacist Craig Cobb, dressed up for daytime TV in a dark suit and red tie, hearing that his DNA testing revealed his ancestry to be only “86 percent European, and … 14 percent Sub-Saharan African.” The studio audience whooped and laughed and cheered. And Cobb—who was, in 2013, charged with terrorizing people while trying to create an all-white enclave in North Dakota—reacted like a sore loser in the schoolyard.

“Wait a minute, wait a minute, hold on, just wait a minute,” he said, trying to put on an all-knowing smile. “This is called statistical noise.”

Then, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center, he took to the white nationalist website Stormfront to dispute those results. That’s not uncommon: With the rise of spit-in-a-cup genetic testing, there’s a trend of white nationalists using these services to prove their racial identity, and then using online forums to discuss the results.

But like Cobb, many are disappointed to find out that their ancestry is not as “white” as they’d hoped. In a new study, sociologists Aaron Panofsky and Joan Donovan examined years’ worth of posts on Stormfront to see how members dealt with the news.

It’s striking, they say, that white nationalists would post these results online at all. After all, as Panofsky put it, “they will basically say if you want to be a member of Stormfront you have to be 100 percent white European, not Jewish.”

But instead of rejecting members who get contrary results, Donovan said, the conversations are “overwhelmingly” focused on helping the person to rethink the validity of the genetic test. And some of those critiques—while emerging from deep-seated racism—are close to scientists’ own qualms about commercial genetic ancestry testing.

Panofsky and Donovan presented their findings at a sociology conference in Montreal on Monday. The timing of the talk—some 48 hours after the violent white nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Va.—was coincidental. But the analysis provides a useful, if frightening, window into how these extremist groups think about their genes.

Reckoning with results
Stormfront was launched in the mid-1990s by Don Black, a former grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan. His skills in computer programming were directly related to his criminal activities: He learned them while in prison for trying to invade the Caribbean island nation of Dominica in 1981, and then worked as a web developer after he got out. That means this website dates back to the early years of the internet, forming a kind of deep archive of online hate.

To find relevant comments in the 12 million posts written by over 300,000 members, the authors enlisted a team at the University of California, Los Angeles, to search for terms like “DNA test,” “haplotype,” “23andMe,” and “National Geographic.” Then the researchers combed through the posts they found, not to mention many others as background. Donovan, who has moved from UCLA to the Data & Society Research Institute, estimated that she spent some four hours a day reading Stormfront in 2016. The team winnowed their results down to 70 discussion threads in which 153 users posted their genetic ancestry test results, with over 3,000 individual posts.

About a third of the people posting their results were pleased with what they found. “Pretty damn pure blood,” said a user with the username Sloth. But the majority didn’t find themselves in that situation. Instead, the community often helped them reject the test, or argue with its results.

Some rejected the tests entirely, saying that an individual’s knowledge about his or her own genealogy is better than whatever a genetic test can reveal. “They will talk about the mirror test,” said Panofsky, who is a sociologist of science at UCLA’s Institute for Society and Genetics. “They will say things like, ‘If you see a Jew in the mirror looking back at you, that’s a problem; if you don’t, you’re fine.'” Others, he said, responded to unwanted genetic results by saying that those kinds of tests don’t matter if you are truly committed to being a white nationalist. Yet others tried to discredit the genetic tests as a Jewish conspiracy “that is trying to confuse true white Americans about their ancestry,” Panofsky said.

But some took a more scientific angle in their critiques, calling into doubt the method by which these companies determine ancestry—specifically how companies pick those people whose genetic material will be considered the reference for a particular geographical group.

And that criticism, though motivated by very different ideas, is one that some researchers have made as well, even as other scientists have used similar data to better understand how populations move and change.

“There is a mainstream critical literature on genetic ancestry tests—geneticists and anthropologists and sociologists who have said precisely those things: that these tests give an illusion of certainty, but once you know how the sausage is made, you should be much more cautious about these results,” said Panofsky.

A community’s genetic rules
Companies like Ancestry.com and 23andMe are meticulous in how they analyze your genetic material. As points of comparison, they use both preexisting datasets as well as some reference populations that they have recruited themselves. The protocol includes genetic material from thousands of individuals, and looks at thousands of genetic variations.

“When a 23andMe research participant tells us that they have four grandparents all born in the same country—and the country isn’t a colonial nation like the U.S., Canada, or Australia—that person becomes a candidate for inclusion in the reference data,” explained Jhulianna Cintron, a product specialist at 23andMe. Then, she went on, the company excludes close relatives, as that could distort the data, and removes outliers whose genetic data don’t seem to match with what they wrote on their survey.

But specialists both inside and outside these companies recognize that the geopolitical boundaries we use now are pretty new, and so consumers may be using imprecise categories when thinking about their own genetic ancestry within the sweeping history of human migration. And users’ ancestry results can change depending on the dataset to which their genetic material is being compared—a fact which some Stormfront users said they took advantage of, uploading their data to various sites to get a more “white” result.

J. Scott Roberts, an associate professor at the University of Michigan, who has studied consumer use of genetic tests and was not involved with the study, said the companies tend to be reliable at identifying genetic variants. Interpreting them in terms of health risk or ancestry, though, is another story. “The science is often murky in those areas and gives ambiguous information,” he said. “They try to give specific percentages from this region, or x percent disease risk, and my sense is that that is an artificially precise estimate.”

For the study authors, what was most interesting was to watch this online community negotiating its own boundaries, rethinking who counts as “white.” That involved plenty of contradictions. They saw people excluded for their genetic test results, often in very nasty (and unquotable) ways, but that tended to happen for newer members of the anonymous online community, Panofsky said, and not so much for longtime, trusted members. Others were told that they could remain part of white nationalist groups, in spite of the ancestry they revealed, as long as they didn’t “mate,” or only had children with certain ethnic groups. Still others used these test results to put forth a twisted notion of diversity, one “that allows them to say, ‘No, we’re really diverse and we don’t need non-white people to have a diverse society,'” said Panofsky.

That’s a far cry from the message of reconciliation that genetic ancestry testing companies hope to promote.

“Sweetheart, you have a little black in you,” the talk show host Trisha Goddard told Craig Cobb on that day in 2013. But that didn’t stop him from redoing the test with a different company, trying to alter or parse the data until it matched his racist worldview.

Republished with permission from STAT. This article originally appeared on August 16, 2017


https://www.scientificamerican.com/...netic-ancestry-tests-with-surprising-results/
 
Northern Europeans are basically the most chilly, standoffish, least-fun people in world history, but through historical circumstance have ended up dictating the baseline cultural expectations of the English-speaking internet. ("English-speaking" is probably an important clue, there.)

Highly dubious.
The baseline expectation of the english-speaking internet - in its extreme prudery, its jingoism and its infantile treatment of data and information - is essentially American and ultimately a derivative of Victorian England.

This'll probably end with either one of us having yet another fresh-air-as-insufficient-remedy moment...^^
 
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