[RD] Why y'all always trying to defend Nazis?

[civver_764]

Yet you want to preserve those Confederate statues because "muh history."

Letting go of the past is not the same as wanting to destroy history.

Also "Can't we just let the past go?" asked the white man, sitting atop a pile of bloodstained treasure stolen by his ancestors

Dude, you literally know nothing about me. Who are you tell me that my ancestors stole stuff, on the basis of my race? How can you call yourself an "anti-racist" and make such blanket statements about a race of people?

 

[Lexicus]

Letting go of the past is not the same as wanting to destroy history.

lol

Dude, you literally know nothing about me. Who are you tell me that my ancestors stole stuff, on the basis of my race? How can you call yourself an "anti-racist" and make such blanket statements?

Au contraire, I know more about you than I want. You should consider the possibility that the statement was not directed at you personally, but was more a general satirical comment on the state of this discourse

 

[inthesomeday]

Civver I grow more and more wary of replying to you as your obvious racism grows more and more apparent. Anyways.

Black people dropping out of school and being convicted of more crimes are moreso endemic of public education failing them and the justice system targeting them. Both are quite deliberate developments of white supremacy.

Unless you're suggesting it's because of some trait common to black people. If you're suggesting that, I want you to admit it openly in this thread so that the moderators can take proper action.

Moderator Action: We are taking proper action by infracting flaming and PDMA. Please don't call other members racist or talk about what you'd like moderators to do to posters you disagree with. - Vincour
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[civver_764]

Civver I grow more and more wary of replying to you as your obvious racism grows more and more apparent. Anyways.

Do you realize that by thinking like this you are creating a "safe space bubble" that prevents you from challenging your own ideas?

Black people dropping out of school and being convicted of more crimes are moreso endemic of public education failing them and the justice system targeting them. Both are quite deliberate developments of white supremacy.

So you think public education intentionally fails black students? Why? What's the motive for this?

 

[Senethro]

Its as deliberate as de facto continued segregation and schools directly funded by local property taxes.

So for you its plausibly deniable.

 

[inthesomeday]

Do you realize that by thinking like this you are creating a "safe space bubble" that prevents you from challenging your own ideas?

I do not wish to challenge my own ideas when it comes to outlandish nonsense that would simply serve to waste my time. I don't think white supremacist thought in serious historical analysis needs to be tolerated any more than thought about floating elephants engineering the universe needs to be tolerated in serious scientific analysis.

Not that I'm accusing you of anything, to clarify.

So you think public education intentionally fails black students? Why? What's the motive for this?

Not ALL black students, but most poor public schools regardless of race. Probably a little worse for the black students. If you'll permit me, I'll provide my anecdotal evidence about visiting a wide variety of low income schools, both as a student and a friend of students, and noticing that the ones in black neighborhoods were more likely to have a significant police presence, metal detectors, and poorly upkept infrastructure.

 

[civver_764]

Not ALL black students, but most poor public schools regardless of race. Probably a little worse for the black students. If you'll permit me, I'll provide my anecdotal evidence about visiting a wide variety of low income schools, both as a student and a friend of students, and noticing that the ones in black neighborhoods were more likely to have a significant police presence, metal detectors, and poorly upkept infrastructure.

Sure, but you said this was "deliberate". Do you think the police are there to deliberately hold black students down, or is just because there is more crime in these areas? First you say this was about white supremacy and keeping black people down specifically, now you are shifting to it being about "low-income" areas in general. Well...which is it? And at what point does it become useful to blame "white supremacy"? Again, aren't you just stirring up racial tensions? Aren't there more practical things we can focus on, such as lowering crime and improving the incomes of the people in the area? Why even bring "white supremacy" into it at all? Makes no sense to me.

 

[inthesomeday]

Sure, but you said this was "deliberate". Do you think the police are there to deliberately hold black students down, or is just because there is more crime in these areas?

There is maybe statistically a higher crime rate but that statistic has historically been laughably unreliable in American history because of the way crime is treated ESPECIALLY among black people and communities. And I think the police are there to book students with irrelevant crimes like minor drug possession and tagging, which in turn destroys their lives and futures. I guess if you think that's an accident then you can, it's just widely ignorant.

First you say this was about white supremacy and keeping black people down specifically, now you are shifting to it being about "low-income" areas in general. Well...which is it?

It's both. Classism targets white and black students. White supremacy targets black students further. If you read what I said, I mentioned that it is specifically worse for black students than for white students in similar economic positions.

And at what point does it become useful to blame "white supremacy"? Again, aren't you just stirring up racial tensions?

Racial tensions don't need my help to be stirred up. And white supremacy is an important institutional problem to combat in regards to education.

Aren't there more practical things we can focus on, such as lowering crime and improving the incomes of the people in the area?

Sure. Lower crime rates by getting police to back off a bit when it comes to irrelevant misdemeanors. Improve incomes through socialism.

Why even bring "white supremacy" into it at all? Makes no sense to me.

Because when discussing the issue of black people being failed by public education worse than any other group, white supremacy is really important to face head on.

 

[civver_764]

There is maybe statistically a higher crime rate but that statistic has historically been laughably unreliable in American history because of the way crime is treated ESPECIALLY among black people and communities. And I think the police are there to book students with irrelevant crimes like minor drug possession and tagging, which in turn destroys their lives and futures. I guess if you think that's an accident then you can, it's just widely ignorant.

You're suggesting that our crime statistics are inaccurate? What evidence do you have to support this?

Anyways, I agree with you about drug possession. But you don't need to make it about "whites vs. blacks" in order to talk about the problems of the drug war. We can easily employ colorblind approaches to this problem, which will both help black people and also avoid creating further racial tensions.

It's both. Classism targets white and black students. White supremacy targets black students further. If you read what I said, I mentioned that it is specifically worse for black students than for white students in similar economic positions.

Can you define "white supremacy"? What exactly is the motive to treat black students worse than white students? Why do white people want black people to fail?

Racial tensions don't need my help to be stirred up. And white supremacy is an important institutional problem to combat in regards to education.

Regardless, you are contributing to them when you talk about "white supremacy". Racial tensions definitely exist, but that doesn't mean you should further inflame them.

Sure. Lower crime rates by getting police to back off a bit when it comes to irrelevant misdemeanors. Improve incomes through socialism.

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. I disagree with you on the socialism, but at least you're avoiding racially charged language.

 

[Berzerker]

Question: would you prefer one 'race' of people - the product of prolonged racial mixing - or the various races we have now? The racial separatists want the latter... Well, some of them might want their race to be top dog or the only race.

 

[inthesomeday]

You're suggesting that our crime statistics are inaccurate? What evidence do you have to support this?

No, I'm saying the way that crime is treated among black communities is incredibly problematic and racist. Police patrol black neighborhoods more often and black people are more likely to be booked and convicted of the same crimes than white people.

Anyways, I agree with you about drug possession. But you don't need to make it about "whites vs. blacks" in order to talk about the problems of the drug war. We can easily employ colorblind approaches to this problem, which will both help black people and also avoid creating further racial tensions.

The drug war is almost universally known to target urban poor black (and Latino) people more often than any other group. Doesn't mean it's exclusively against them, just represents white supremacy in that they are targeted worse by the same problem.

Can you define "white supremacy"? What exactly is the motive to treat black students worse than white students? Why do white people want black people to fail?

White PEOPLE don't want black people to fail, but the capitalist class, which is decidedly pro-white supremacy, want poor black people to fail because it will maintain the ease with which labor exploitation has been impressed on black communities historically, which is one of the largest factors directly responsible for the current world order by which the Western capitalist class controls the global economy.

Regardless, you are contributing to them when you talk about "white supremacy". Racial tensions definitely exist, but that doesn't mean you should further inflame them.

Racial tensions among the working class will not be inflamed by understanding of white supremacy.

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. I disagree with you on the socialism, but at least you're avoiding racially charged language.

In America any discussion of economics is racially charged.

 

[civver_764]

No, I'm saying the way that crime is treated among black communities is incredibly problematic and racist. Police patrol black neighborhoods more often and black people are more likely to be booked and convicted of the same crimes than white people.

And you think this is because the police intentionally want to hurt black communities?

White PEOPLE don't want black people to fail, but the capitalist class, which is decidedly pro-white supremacy, want poor black people to fail because it will maintain the ease with which labor exploitation has been impressed on black communities historically, which is one of the largest factors directly responsible for the current world order by which the Western capitalist class controls the global economy.

This is an interesting conspiracy theory, but I don't think it holds up. Black communities have a higher than average unemployment rate compared to the general population. If the goal was to exploit black workers more, it seems this "white supremacy" is having the opposite effect.

And why would the capitalist class single out black people? Why don't they do this to everybody?

Racial tensions among the working class will not be inflamed by understanding of white supremacy.

Absolutely they will. If you tell black people -- "your problems are because of white supremacy" - guess what that accomplishes? More racial tension.

 

[Berzerker]

capitalists see green, not black or white...

 

[Berzerker]

And you think this is because the police intentionally want to hurt black communities?

Cant speak for cops, but the people writing the drug laws are suspect

 

[inthesomeday]

And you think this is because the police intentionally want to hurt black communities?

Only insofar as their masters tell them to.

This is an interesting conspiracy theory, but I don't think it holds up. Black communities have a higher than average unemployment rate compared to the general population. If the goal was to exploit black workers more, it seems this "white supremacy" is having the opposite effect.

Black communities might, but that statistic doubtfully accounts for the modern slavery of mass incarceration. And furthermore, black people who are employed are more likely to work in minimum wage jobs and hard labor jobs.

And why would the capitalist class single out black people? Why don't they do this to everybody?

They do, but black people are hurt the worst. A good example is that every poor person who the schools fail is more likely to have to suffer through grueling low-income conditions than people who get quality educations in wealthier areas, but poor black people are even more likely to therein. It's consistent with the historical demarcation of two classes, a white class of x economic status and a POC class of x economic status. This is white supremacy-- unequal treatment of non-white people relative to white people in the same position. It is a type of racism-- systematic unequal treatment of some groups relative to others due to racial characteristics.

Absolutely they will. If you tell black people -- "your problems are because of white supremacy" - guess what that accomplishes? More racial tension.

Only if I blame "the white people" for white supremacy, which I've never done. Only the capitalists.

 

[Lexicus]

Black communities might, but that statistic doubtfully accounts for the modern slavery of mass incarceration. And furthermore, black people who are employed are more likely to work in minimum wage jobs and hard labor jobs.

I'm kind of astonished that you would accept his preposterous framing of the higher black unemployment rate as a point of evidence against the exploitation of black workers. Involuntary unemployment is arguably the most vicious type of capitalist exploitation.

Only if I blame "the white people" for white supremacy, which I've never done. Only the capitalists.

Eh. It's more complicated than this. White supremacy is more than a capitalist invention to trick the whites into accepting exploitation because they'll always be better off than someone. All white people have an immediate material interest in the maintenance of white supremacy, and it is incumbent on all white people to help dismantle white supremacy.

 

[inthesomeday]

I'm kind of astonished that you would accept his preposterous framing of the higher black unemployment rate as a point of evidence against the exploitation of black workers. Involuntary unemployment is arguably the most vicious type of capitalist exploitation.

(I know that but probably Civver wouldn't respond very well to that argument, seeming as though he described it in a way that blamed the unemployed person for their unemployment)

Eh. It's more complicated than this. White supremacy is more than a capitalist invention to trick the whites into accepting exploitation because they'll always be better off than someone. All white people have an immediate material interest in the maintenance of white supremacy, and it is incumbent on all white people to help dismantle white supremacy.

I would argue that the poorest of white people, who may never encounter a person of color in their life, have less of an immediate material interest in the maintenance of white supremacy, and more of a social, immaterial interest. I doubt that the capitalist class would be willing to allow any portion of the immense wealth reaped from white supremacist exploitation to realistically reach the poorest of white people, other than possibly through the infrastructural investments of liberal government. I do however agree it will require the combined efforts of all the working class to dismantle such a sinister and vital symptom of capitalist exploitation.

 

[Lexicus]

(I know that but probably Civver wouldn't respond very well to that argument, seeming as though he described it in a way that blamed the unemployed person for their unemployment)

Before he outed himself as a nazi, civver spent some time arguing for Rothbardian (anarcho-capitalist) ideology. I got a kick out of seeing him argue that the state should be replaced with private entities because the market can govern everything in one thread while in another thread claiming that non-white immigration needs to be stopped forthwith.

I do however agree it will require the combined efforts of all the working class to dismantle such a sinister and vital symptom of capitalist exploitation.

Hmm...tell me more about white supremacy as a symptom of capitalist exploitation (I assume this is what you mean?). I'm curious about this. I hope it doesn't mean what I think it means.

Moderator Action: You have been warned in the past for calling other members Nazis. The general attitude, as well, of targeting other members through public gossip is also distasteful. Both of these constitute as flaming or trolling. - Vincour
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Akka]

Only insofar as their masters tell them to.

Okay, wait.

Tell me "there is a combination of pervasive and sometimes even unconscious racism, and unfortunate association of blacks with crime/lazyness/whatever, which means that statistically, blacks drag unspoken and outspoken disadvantage through their life compared to whites" and I'll agree and say the reasoning seems to hold and be supported by numbers.

Tell me "there is this conspiracy by people who meet in rich mansions and decide they'll oppress specifically the black" and it just sounds stupid.

Only if I blame "the white people" for white supremacy, which I've never done. Only the capitalists.

And you admit that rich people are the same class regardless of skin colour. I can't really see the point or the source of "white supremacism" if you consider it comes from the capitalist ruling class and said class is colourblind and only care for money.
Plus what I said above.

 

[Traitorfish]

What gets me about all this "oh noes mah white ppl" stuff is, since when did we all become "white people"? Has Civver been to Europe, or even met a European? There's no "white people" here, not in the sense he means. Europeans hate each other, Europeans have spent centuries killing each other. The last European genocide ended in 1995. The last European civil war is still ongoing. How naive can a person be, to imagine that "white people" are one big happy family?

Just last Saturday, and not for the first time, I had the pleasure of spending a subway journey with a dozen half-cut Loyalists, cheerfully declaring "We're up to our knees in Fenian blood/Surrender or you'll die", and I'll leave it to the reader to decode that subtle lyricism. But I'm supposed to believe that we're all really on the same team, just because some poor sod called "Ahmed" doesn't like pork?

Nah. Pish.

Hmm...tell me more about white supremacy as a symptom of capitalist exploitation (I assume this is what you mean?). I'm curious about this. I hope it doesn't mean what I think it means.

The traditional Marxist analysis of race is that white supremacy is, very crudely put, a way of dividing and conquering the working class. The greatest threat to the class power of capitalism is working class solidarity, so the capitalists introduce artificial divisions of race and ethnicity into the working class.

That's not the full story, of course; given that racism clearly predates industrial capitalism, it couldn't be. And it would be untrue to say that capitalists are merely cynical in their exploitation of white supremacy; a lot of them are of courses sincere racists. But that is the basic mechanism.

This is actually the school of thought from which the whole concept of "white privilege" derives, although the way bourgeois liberals wield the term, you'd hardly know it.