1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

World Peace Day

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Sultan Bhargash, Feb 15, 2003.

  1. Knight-Dragon

    Knight-Dragon Unhidden Dragon Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2001
    Messages:
    19,963
    Location:
    Singapore
    Singaporeans are running Singapore. ;)

    Singapore is a small place; kind of hard to miss a demonstration. I'll check the news tomorrow and see. Yes, the newspapers do report such stuff, even if they're illegal gatherings. I doubt there'll be any news of major local demonstrations.

    People here just don't demonstrate whatever they may think in their hearts. You'll also need a permit first, before you can hold any gatherings. Demonstrations incl. Singapore is an orderly kind of place.

    Also, the possible war with Iraq is not an immediate issue with most people here. ;) It's not our war.
     
  2. NY Hoya

    NY Hoya Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2001
    Messages:
    1,111
    Location:
    NY, NY
    my thoughts on the protests

    I had the displeasure of having to see these fools firsthand as my barbershop is quite close to the United Nations building. I caught a cab to bring me up there and the cabbie was a Cuban American. I can't describe how angry and hurt he was. We spoke a little about his experience in Cuba before moving to the US and about how his daughter is a cop here in the city. One of his daughter's best friends, a man this cabbie thought of as a son, was one of the firefighters killed on 9/11. He was in absolute shock that these kids and aging hippies could turn out in such large numbers to protest in favor of a man like Saddam. (and yes, most of the signs I saw were more sympathetic to Saddam than Bush.)

    He said, "These people don't know what they're protesting against. They don't know what it's like to live under that kind of regime. No one here tells you that you have to live in New York of you don't like the cold or that you have to drive a cab if you don't like it. They just don't understand. None of them would be allowed to do these things in Cuba or in Iraq."

    This is a man who knows oppression. He understands what it is like to live under a "socialist utopia" regime. These people made him sick to his stomach, although when I asked he said he did support the protesters right to free speech. As I was getting out of the cab, he told me "God bless America". I have never felt more pride in my country or felt as sure about what we are doing to promote freedom in Iraq.

    So there I am, half a block from my barbershop, and there is a police barricade blocking off the street I need to go down. I walked up to the cops there and told them where I was going, that I wasn't part of the protest. They said I still had to go around. I had to walk three locks down Lex Ave to 42nd St, one block east to 3rd ave, back up three blocks and then made it to the place. Thank you protestors!!!:vomit: The entire walk was very slow, the sidewalks jammed with the enlightened masses. Occasionally the mass of people would have to stop as one group or another stopped to make a speech about how evil Bush is.

    Thankfully, I wasn't the only non protester caught in this mess, and I heard several "F*cking Communists!" as we tried to get around. To those of you who think this is a mainstream movement, think again. This group, these people, are very fringe. They smelled. Literally. They were those kids in college who stood around handing out copies of the Daily Worker or whatever that Socialist rag is called. They were the hippies who swear off of showering for whatever reason they do. They are America's small, pathetic fringe comprised mostly of White college aged students, Black "nationalists", 50 something flower children and the occasional European. A large portion of the signs I saw were ANSWER signs. ANSWER is an anti-American, communist organization.

    I did think it funny to see various socialist papers handed out by people wearing North Face jackets. I would bet that at least a couple of the No Blood for Oil group drove into the city in their SUVs as well. Ahh useful idiots for Saddam.

    Napoleon brings up a good point. Not all of the protesters are weirdos, but most of those with signs and a huge portion of the rank and file are. It's a pity that those mainstream protesters cannot bring themselves to disassociate from the fringe who organize these events. Stormbind, listen to Richard III. This isn't close to Vietnam level protests, at least not here in NY. Curt, I hope you are just joking.
     
  3. Richard III

    Richard III Duke of Gloucester

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2001
    Messages:
    4,872
    Location:
    bla

    [Some Hon. Members] Oh, oh!


    But the missles can reach as far as Cyprus!!


    R.III


    EDIT: okay, that was uncalled for, but I was amused at the sight of someone actually explain their distance from this...

    Just read your post, NY Hoya, and I'm sorry to hear about your trouble. In my day, one of the biggest arguments I had with my fellow protesting types was about the nature of rallies; I proposed putting an end to marches and replacing them with something that actually involved speaking to people and distributing information without creating any distance or disruption for passersby on the grounds that rallies or marches just preached to the converted and isolated the converted from the unconverted.

    Lost it by one vote; the winners had been persuaded by a rather putridy vegan clown in birkenstocks that "marches were essential to the movement because of the symbolism of taking our struggle to the streets."

    :lol:

    R.III, again.
     
  4. G-Man

    G-Man A One Man's War

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2001
    Messages:
    7,703
    Location:
    HUJI, Israel
    I don't believe in demonstrations. People who shout slogans and laugh at the leaders they hate might make a lot of noise but their message can usually be summed up with a single line. The people going to them use the crowd and the noise in order to shout thier opinions without the fear someone with better counter arguments will reply.
     
  5. Sultan Bhargash

    Sultan Bhargash Trickster Reincarnated

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2001
    Messages:
    7,608
    Location:
    Missing The Harem
    Interesting alternate perception, NYHoya. When do invade Cuba?
     
  6. NY Hoya

    NY Hoya Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2001
    Messages:
    1,111
    Location:
    NY, NY
    The moment Cuba threatens our national security or that of our allies.
     
  7. napoleon526

    napoleon526 Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2002
    Messages:
    3,694
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    @ NY Hoya:

    I don't think anyone who is anti-war disagrees with the fact that Saddam Hussein is an evil man. But where does it end? The Syrian, Saudi, and Egyptian governments are just as repressivve as Saddam's regime (and all of them fund terrorists); do we invade those countries?

    I think that by now war is inevitable, so I've kind of come around to the idea. American casualties will be light, but i'm more worried about the Iraqi children whose parents are killed by a stray bomb, who grow up to join Al-Qaeda or Hezbollah or some such orginization. We also need to ensure that we don't make the same mistakes as we did in Afganistan and not let the country dissolve into dozens of fiefdoms run by local warlords.

    I agree with you about the radical protestors. The socialist/anarchist/whatever presence at these demonstartions is what keeps me from attending.
     
  8. G-Man

    G-Man A One Man's War

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2001
    Messages:
    7,703
    Location:
    HUJI, Israel
    Originally posted by napoleon526
    I don't think anyone who is anti-war disagrees with the fact that Saddam Hussein is an evil man. But where does it end? The Syrian, Saudi, and Egyptian governments are just as repressivve as Saddam's regime (and all of them fund terrorists); do we invade those countries?


    Egypt is far from being as oppressive as Iraq. Anyway, I don't see anything wrong with invading them and replacing them with democracies.


    I think that by now war is inevitable, so I've kind of come around to the idea. American casualties will be light, but i'm more worried about the Iraqi children whose parents are killed by a stray bomb, who grow up to join Al-Qaeda or Hezbollah or some such orginization. We also need to ensure that we don't make the same mistakes as we did in Afganistan and not let the country dissolve into dozens of fiefdoms run by local warlords.


    There will always be people joining radical groups. With Saddam gone, these groups will lose a lot of strengh. There are already millions willing to join them so I don't think new recruits is their problem, not nearly as much as lack of support, funding and weapons is.
     
  9. Sultan Bhargash

    Sultan Bhargash Trickster Reincarnated

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2001
    Messages:
    7,608
    Location:
    Missing The Harem
    So that taxi driver Hoya got to fly to New York and escape the socialist nightmare?

    And "fringe" groups now big enough to stop up the streets of NY? ("White college students" are a fringe group? Black nationalists- you mean blacks, right - you can tell the difference? Smelly aging hippies?). And you say you love America some how? You don't appear to know America.
     
  10. IceBlaZe

    IceBlaZe Atheist Proselytizer

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2001
    Messages:
    4,740
    Location:
    Israel
    Well, Egypt is an American ally...
     
  11. Sultan Bhargash

    Sultan Bhargash Trickster Reincarnated

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2001
    Messages:
    7,608
    Location:
    Missing The Harem
    G-Man, you say you're against protesting but you want to "force democracy" on Egypt and others? You don't know what democracy is! It isn't something you can impose from the outside, try as you may.

    Do you know what the Egyptians would VOTE for if they could? Something a lot less friendly to Israel than the dictators we prop up there and in Saudi Arabia and all over the place.
     
  12. G-Man

    G-Man A One Man's War

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2001
    Messages:
    7,703
    Location:
    HUJI, Israel
    Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
    G-Man, you say you're against protesting but you want to "force democracy" on Egypt and others? You don't know what democracy is! It isn't something you can impose from the outside, try as you may.


    So Japan and Germany aren't real democracies? :rolleyes: Everyone must be given a choice about their and their country's future.
    Edit: I said I'm against protecting as an idea. I didn't mean people shouldn't have the right to protest.


    Do you know what the Egyptians would VOTE for if they could? Something a lot less friendly to Israel than the dictators we prop up there and in Saudi Arabia and all over the place.

    I never said they'll be friendlier
     
  13. Sultan Bhargash

    Sultan Bhargash Trickster Reincarnated

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2001
    Messages:
    7,608
    Location:
    Missing The Harem


    Unless that choice is, we don't want to go to war with Iraq. Right?
     
  14. Knight-Dragon

    Knight-Dragon Unhidden Dragon Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2001
    Messages:
    19,963
    Location:
    Singapore
    The average guy in the street in Singapore just isn't bothered with the political aspects of the war, except for maybe the economic fallout. <shrugs>

    As for the war on terror, the S'pore govt has rounded up the local al-Qaeda-linked group (and keeping a close eye on any others) and the general view is that it's relatively safe here. We're coorperating fully with all and any parties in hunting down the al-Qaeda and its adherents.

    Over here, most people just don't really care.
     
  15. G-Man

    G-Man A One Man's War

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2001
    Messages:
    7,703
    Location:
    HUJI, Israel
    Don't put things into my mouth. I didn't say a war with Iraq or any decision is to be decided by anyone but the public. Bush was elected by the American people.
     
  16. napoleon526

    napoleon526 Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2002
    Messages:
    3,694
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    EXACTLY.

    If there's one thing we like to see in the Middle East, it's stability. Saddam, besides being a heinous, evil individual, is a threat to that stability. Ergo, Saddam must die. Granted, he probably deserves death, but invasion may not be the easiest way to get rid of him.
     
  17. andrewgprv

    andrewgprv Second Class Citizen

    Joined:
    May 28, 2002
    Messages:
    3,539
    Location:
    Idaho Falls, USA
    Not Really......He was elected by the Electorial College. Gore was who the public wanted.
     
  18. napoleon526

    napoleon526 Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2002
    Messages:
    3,694
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    This is still up for debate...:mischief:
     
  19. NY Hoya

    NY Hoya Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2001
    Messages:
    1,111
    Location:
    NY, NY
    I agree with you to an extent. However, each of these cases must be examined individually. Iraq is the place in the middle east where we have the best case for war, so it needs to be first. I think the hope is that a free Iraq will serve as a model of sorts for the rest of the Arab world as it moves toward democracy. We will see. The argument that if we invade Iraq, we should invade S.A. as well is not an effective argument against war in Iraq. It's an argument in favor of invading S.A.

    I also think you underestimate the feelings of many who are anti war when it comes to Saddam. They may not love him, but there are many who think Bush is worse. I was there among them today. These people HATE Bush with a passion that should be reserved for those who truly want to destroy everything we know and love. The Hitlers, the Pol Pots, etc. That view is not thoughtful, and is downright despicable to those who have been forced to suffer under totalitarian regimes.

    I agree, we need to have a clear plan for what happens in Iraq post invasion, but again I don't think this is a valid argument against action. I wish those people for whom this is a big concern would exert energy toward pushing for a clearer vision of the post war plan. That said, once our war is done, and once Saddam is gone, it will largely be up to the Iraqi people to develop a system of government that is good for them. Afghanistan is a tough case for us, in many ways tougher than Iraq will be. Our soldiers will be there to maintain a somewhat safe environment as these people try to pull themselves up from where the Taliban and Saddam have kept them for so many years. I don't think anyone said it would be clean and easy. I sure didn't expect the Afghanis to be a fully functioning democracy at this point in time. It will be hard and messy, but hopefully in the long run things will be better.

    :goodjob: I just wish it would keep all of the others like you at home. I know there are some good people among the mix. They just need to look at the people they ally themselves with and ask if they really want to do that. I wouldn't attend an anti affirmative action rally (if there were such a thing) if there were a bunch of KKK members and Neo Nazis setting the agenda and or tone of the rally.
     
  20. Sultan Bhargash

    Sultan Bhargash Trickster Reincarnated

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2001
    Messages:
    7,608
    Location:
    Missing The Harem
    I DEMAND AN IMMEDIATE END TO DISCUSSION OF THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT'S APPOINTMENT - that is thread jacking and a pointless debate at this point. Bush is the man in charge right now, the man who managed to come off uglier than Saddam in the eyes of the world, somehow. Real public relations coup and great for the security of Americans.
     

Share This Page