Would the GOP types push the USA into default ?

The fact that there is any statistical chance we will default by choice instead of just raising this arbitrary debt ceiling number and this is somehow good for us is utter lunacy. Words cannot describe the amount of face-palming and head-shaking I'm doing now while reading the news.



It's not necessarily that it is a low priority, it's that so much of the real stuff the government does is deserving of the high priority marker.


Well sorry :blush: but I was tricked by certain media, but its hard to convince my congressman about how yankee it is to not raise the debt ceiling after spending all this time writing him about how yankee it was to raise the ceiling.
 
So what did the author say wrong? I mean, he may, among other things, have overly dramatized the effect the system has on industriousness of Norwegians, but his final conclusion - that the system was made possible by the oil wealth and is hardly easily replicable elsewhere - still holds, no?
The oil helped us immensely (and still does), but our society is very comparable to the other Nordic countries, which have none, or very little oil. But they're all social democracies however (and other things that contribute). Should be clear what actually has had an effect on making Norway a good country to live in.

I was going to go thorough that piece with the figuratively red marker, but I figured it was quite pointless, cause I didn't think anyone cared about that piece or any rebuttal. But if you're interested, I guess I could find some time tomorrow.

Oh, and the USA might be downgraded again tonight. That's what, a few hours away now?
You're at least lucky that the three biggest credit rating agencies are American. Any other government would have been downgraded a couple of times already by now. :)

Considering voluntarily defaulting on your debt... Your Congress is a circus right now, and all the clowns are drunk! :cringe:
 
Lie. None of the people looking at this are "Government-loving statists". If such a thing actually exists in the first place.

Found one. :crazyeye:
Or you could look at Denmark, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and the others* - many of them offer completely free university education, free healthcare, sufficient retirement benefits for all citizens...

And they aren't bankrupt. In fact, Iceland is a particularly interesting case study on the wisdon of putting citizens before corporations. But in the USA#1, corporations run the show from top to bottom.

These nations show that much larger intervention by government into all markets can result in a far higher standard of living, more happiness, more equality, better health, better education, more opportunity for people at every socioeconomic level...


Lie. No one does anything because they think " that big government and high taxes are good."

Really? How about a 10 minute celebration of government run health care :D


Link to video.

Lie. The US tax burden is about 37%, and for that we get much less services.

Oh, this is actually a good point. :eek:

US government spending is 37% of GDP. The tax burden is about 5% lower since we run such a large deficit at the federal level.

For spending so much money by the government we ought to be closer to other countries' results :hmm:

I'd agree that saying Norway has double the tax burden of USA is a lie.
 
Found one. :crazyeye:





Really? How about a 10 minute celebration of government run health care :D


Link to video.



Oh, this is actually a good point. :eek:

US government spending is 37% of GDP. The tax burden is about 5% lower since we run such a large deficit at the federal level.

For spending so much money by the government we ought to be closer to other countries' results :hmm:

I'd agree that saying Norway has double the tax burden of USA is a lie.



So you agree that those people were lying, and decided to join them. :p
 
Oh, this is actually a good point. :eek:

US government spending is 37% of GDP. The tax burden is about 5% lower since we run such a large deficit at the federal level.

For spending so much money by the government we ought to be closer to other countries' results :hmm:

I'd agree that saying Norway has double the tax burden of USA is a lie.
One of those weird situations in which having private health care requires the government to run a larger deficit to make up for its burden to the private sector. :scan:

Yeah I think we could definitely fix our spending, too.
 
Found one. :crazyeye:
I'm a big government loving statist unless and until something better comes along to protect people from the predations of the profit-driven corporate model. Show me something better and I'll quickly jump ship. Until then, I want the government to work for us, not against us.
 
The oil helped us immensely (and still does), but our society is very comparable to the other Nordic countries, which have none, or very little oil. But they're all social democracies however (and other things that contribute). Should be clear what actually has had an effect on making Norway a good country to live in.

I was going to go thorough that piece with the figuratively red marker, but I figured it was quite pointless, cause I didn't think anyone cared about that piece or any rebuttal. But if you're interested, I guess I could find some time tomorrow.

You're at least lucky that the three biggest credit rating agencies are American. Any other government would have been downgraded a couple of times already by now. :)

Considering voluntarily defaulting on your debt... Your Congress is a circus right now, and all the clowns are drunk! :cringe:

I'm interested in seeing a rebuttal to that article. I'd like to know more about Norway. Doesn't have to be anything super elaborate.
 
I don't know why people think large for-profit corporations are better than the government for society, because all the evidence points to the opposite conclusion. Its the lack of government intervention that has led to all these bubbles and collapses. You can have your non-intervention, fine, but then don't expect the government to back and protect you either from bankruptcy or give you subsidies. Donald Trump would have gone broke several times over without the government as well as many other rich people.
 
Here's the USA for you:

Spoiler :
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Looks like a deal has been reached.
Not sure about the details, but see you again in this thread in 4 months when we hit the debt ceiling again :D
 
The deal looks like a government funding bill until mid-January, a debt ceiling extension to early February, and there will be income verification to receive healthcare subsidies instead of delaying that component for a year.

The bill sort-of suggests that a long-term budget be put in place in December to avoid the shenanigans right after Christmas, but we all know how that is going to go.
 
I very curious about this income verification redundancy - how is this substantively different from the verifications people already need to meet in order to qualify on the first place?

My stock response whenever I hear about a regulatory compliance requirement the Republican party demands of poor people: let's means-test mortgage deductions, capital expenses, carried interest, business losses - MEENZ-TEST ALL THE THINGSS!
 
I very curious about this income verification redundancy - how is this substantively different from the verifications people already need to meet in order to qualify on the first place?

My stock response whenever I hear about a regulatory compliance requirement the Republican party demands of poor people: let's means-test mortgage deductions, capital expenses, carried interest, business losses - MEENZ-TEST ALL THE THINGSS!

Sounds suspiciously like big government, doesn't it?
 
The only way a default could happen is if the President goes against th consitution. Oh wait, has had done that many times.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/driveby-analysis-misses-the-whole-us-story/story-fni0d8gi-1226741274631
JUST about everything you have read or heard about the US political brawl over spending, Obamacare and the debt ceiling, is almost certainly wrong.

In particular, that the whole world has been taken right to the edge of a financial crash at least as bad and indeed likely to be much more dramatic and more fundamentally destructive than the Global Financial Crisis, thanks to crazy Republican Tea Party extremists.

Specifically, that unless the US Congress votes to increase the US government ceiling overnight, the US will default on its debts, banana republic - or indeed Greek republic - style.

The truth is, that would only happen if the Obama administration deliberately chose to break not just the law but its fundamental constitutional obligations.

To refuse to repay debt even though it had the money to do so; itself, deliberately triggering an unnecessary default.

As rating agency Moody's said this week: "We believe the government would continue to pay interest and principal on its debt even in the event that the debt limit is not raised, leaving its creditworthiness intact.''

This turns on two simple truths.

First, the US government is constitutionally required to prioritise its debt obligations. Secondly, self-evidently, it can repay debt maturities with new borrowings - as that would not increase its total debt.

It just can't increase the amount of debt on issue. So, because it is running a budget deficit, it would have to cut back on its non-debt outlays. Things like social welfare and defence.

Yes, that would be damaging and disruptive. It would NOT be a debt default.

There's a third possibility which I have not seen raised anywhere. There would not appear to be anything to stop the Federal Reserve buying the maturing debt from bond holders and not presenting it to Treasury for repayment.

That would leave the government free to use the moneys otherwise to be paid to maturing debt holders, to spend on defence, social welfare and the rest.

We might never find out, at least not this time, if the issue has been rendered - temporarily - academic overnight by a deal in Congress.

The debt ceiling is one part of a much broader, more fundamental and indeed existential battle underway in the US - caricatured asininely by the media there and here as crazy extremist Tea Party types prepared - indeed wanting - to topple the whole structure of government in the US; and insouciant to or indeed happy if it topples the world as well.

It's driven by a mix of three media dynamics. The inherent government-is-good bias of the media. Sheer stupidity and incompetence. And what I describe as 'drive-by analysis'.

It is almost literally incomprehensible even to local US mainstream media, and certainly media here and in Europe, why Americans don't just sign off on ever-rising government spending, debt and intrusion in to their lives.

This is captured in a piece by Financial Times commentator Martin Wolf, who kicked off a strident call for the debt ceiling to be abolished entirely with:

"Some laws are too dangerous to be allowed to remain on the books. Take, for example, the US debt ceiling.

Heck, in the eyes of Wolf, why worry about a $US17 trillion debt - and as Obama himself said, when voting as a senator against increasing the debt ceiling back in 2006, that's trillion with a T - heading for who knows what: $30 trillion? $50 trillion?

Just maybe, some Americans might think that running a government where 20c or so of every dollar it spends has to be borrowed, can only end in tears. And when it does, a disaster much worse than anything that could happen now.

One very honourable exception to the thousands of words of crud that have spewed out over this, came from RBS Morgans's economist Malcolm Knox.

In the context of the perceived `wisdom' that only crazy extremist Republicans would shutdown the government, Knox detailed that it's happened 17 times previously since 1976; and 15 of those were by Democrats; and indeed five were Democrats shutting down a Democrat president!

Knox also pointed out how Obama manipulated a similar fight over the `fiscal cliff' at the start of the year to `game the process'. Now he's trying to pretend all-purity.

All this is mere byplay to the fundamental problem, that under Obama, a big structural deficit has opened up, with the government now spending about 4 per cent more of GDP than in 2001.

In Australian terms that would be $65 billion extra a year. In the US it's closer to $700 billion. The prime reason for the blowout, according to Knox, is Obamacare.

One might critique the political wisdom of what the Republicans have done. But it's neither extremist, not legislatively improper.

Yes, Obamacare is the law. But it also has to be funded; and it is perfectly legitimate for the Congress to seek to set the terms on which that funding will be provided. In the context of the broader issue of too-much spending.

If you don't do it now, when do you do it? Manana, a man with the European-style wisdom of a Wolf would respond.

Indeed, preferably manana never. Get rid of the debt ceiling and let the US borrow another $10 trillion. Heck, make it $100 trillion. We can always get the Fed to buy some of it by printing money.
 
Bonds aren't the only debt. Paychecks to government employees are covering a debt. Meeting the financial end of government contracts is covering a debt.
 
I very curious about this income verification redundancy - how is this substantively different from the verifications people already need to meet in order to qualify on the first place?

My stock response whenever I hear about a regulatory compliance requirement the Republican party demands of poor people: let's means-test mortgage deductions, capital expenses, carried interest, business losses - MEENZ-TEST ALL THE THINGSS!

As I understand it, it was already a part of the law but could have been delayed a year. It's not being delayed now.

The only way a default could happen is if the President goes against th consitution. Oh wait, has had done that many times.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/driveby-analysis-misses-the-whole-us-story/story-fni0d8gi-1226741274631

I don't quite see how that article supports your statement, nor does it acknowledge way the current treasury computers are configured which makes it impossible to prioritize bond interest/principle payments over other obligations.

So yeah, that article is the same kind of drive-by superficial analysis that claims to eschew.
 
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