Would you vote for Calexit?

[hobbsyoyo]

I also just told Tim 'this isn't 1776' then immediately proceeded to invoke the civil war. I should stop

 

[CavLancer]

Well, a nice civil war...hey wait, wouldn't it be an 'uncivil' war? I mean I've read a bit on it and they didn't shout pleasantries between the lines.

 

[Kyriakos]

Same crap, different day.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Last time states tried to secede after a Republican won the elections, the result was not so good for them.

All the red states got the blue states federal funds ?
But this is just silly, Liberals can elect a socialist next time to drive the Republicans insane.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

California is warm. In the tongue of native Americans, "Canada" means, "Jesus H. Christ, it is cold!"

It gets cold in the winter, sure. Sometimes. I bought new winter boots several years ago and haven't used them even once.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

It hasn't failed. You are just being emotional because Hillary lost. I know this, because you would not be saying the federal government has failed if Hillary had won. You'd be singing the praises of our electoral system and our federal government, while the bitter Trump supporters would be the ones saying our system has failed and calling for the breakup of the union. Don't worry, you'll get your time in the sun again.

Keep in mind, I'm not insulting you by saying this, it just is what it is. The losing side in an election, especially one as emotionally charged as this one, always seem to think the system has failed, while the winning side believes the system is perfectly fine. The punchline though, is that neither one is right. The system has flaws and doesn't always produce a result that truly reflects the will of the people and some segments of the population get routinely shafted, but the system isn't completely broken either. The United States does not need to cease to exist simply because Californians are underrepresented in government. That would cause extremely negative consequences for not just US citizens, but for people all over the world. Now to say Californians' right to self-govern is more important than the well-being of the millions that would be negatively impacted by the dissolution of the US does strike me as a tad bit selfish. For better or worse, the US has positioned itself in such a way that it is in everyone's best interest that it remain stable and whole for the foreseeable future.

Actually, even if Clinton had won the federal government would still be stuck on stupid because the Republicans would have the house. That's what I mean by failed. No one gets anything. You middle Americans don't get your "back to the future take our country back" program, and the economic engines that carry our "united" country continue to fight against not only your dead weight but your poorly thought out economic ideas. It isn't about one election result. The simple fact is that I am on pace to spend my entire lifetime waiting for trickle down economics to work even though by now everyone should be able to see that it doesn't.

 

[tetley]

I would think even conservatives would want Calexit. Give the liberals a place to go, and that is out of the country. The problem is control, control, control. Trump wants control of California and he's not going to give it up

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I would think even conservatives would want Calexit. Give the liberals a place to go, and that is out of the country.

That's basically my point. I'm not so much for Calexit as for dissolution. The conservatives are always crying about "taking their country back" so let them have it. And get them off our necks at the same time. Irreconcilable differences, no hard feelings, clean break.

 

[tetley]

Now conservatives are like an ex-wife. They want all your money and saddle you with all the debt.

 

[Phrossack]

Actually, even if Clinton had won the federal government would still be stuck on stupid because the Republicans would have the house. That's what I mean by failed. No one gets anything. You middle Americans don't get your "back to the future take our country back" program, and the economic engines that carry our "united" country continue to fight against not only your dead weight but your poorly thought out economic ideas. It isn't about one election result. The simple fact is that I am on pace to spend my entire lifetime waiting for trickle down economics to work even though by now everyone should be able to see that it doesn't.

I've had thoughts like these for years now. It's painfully obvious that the US is split into at least two nations that hate each other and block each other from getting what they want, leading to a very dysfunctional government.

However, even I hold out some hope. If Democrats can prevent the Republicans from ensuring permanent power through targeted disenfranchisement and gerrymandering, they likely will win in the long run. As the conservative and largely white generations of the past are slowly replaced by younger generations and the US becomes less white-dominated, the balance starts to swing against Republicans. It's possible that Texas could be flipped blue--and if that happens, the GOP is finished unless it adapts. In the meantime, California is critical in providing Democratic electoral votes and representatives, as well as being critical to our economy. And I don't want to give America's enemies the satisfaction of seeing that division and the opportunity to exploit it for a less stable, more violent world.

However, if it becomes clear that an increasingly unhinged GOP is here to stay, and if it's already withdrawn our forces and foreign aid from Korea, Japan, Europe, and the Middle East, we may as well split and see how well the red states fare without their blue-provided welfare.

 

[onejayhawk]

California would have serious issues as an independent country. They carry about 1/8th of the national debt which would go with them. They import significant amounts of water and cannot generate sufficient electricity. Federal lands cover half the state. They would require compensation or not travel with the state. The US military is deeply ingrained in the economy as are federal subsidies for many things from food and housing to education, not to mention health care and Social Security.

When Quebec wanted to secede they ran into the same problems. Try asking again, telling people they lose Medicare, Social Security and still get two and a half $trillion in debt.

J

 

[Commodore]

They import significant amounts of water and cannot generate sufficient electricity.

These are probably the biggest obstacles to an independent California. I'm guessing those that do provide California with its electricity and water wouldn't be too keen on continuing to provide that to an independent California without getting anything in return. They would probably make outrageous demands that California would never accept and the Californian economy would come grinding to a halt as brownouts and blackouts become the norm.

 

[tetley]

The biggest obstacle is getting the U.S. to allow it. The rest of the obstacles are hard, but we can handle it.

 

[onejayhawk]

These are probably the biggest obstacles to an independent California. I'm guessing those that do provide California with its electricity and water wouldn't be too keen on continuing to provide that to an independent California without getting anything in return. They would probably make outrageous demands that California would never accept and the Californian economy would come grinding to a halt as brownouts and blackouts become the norm.

It's not outrageous if California pays what, say, Japan pays for power and Israel pays for water. Those are comparable situations. Both those figures are several times what California is paying now.

Still, the money is a bigger issue. People want the benefits but not the debt. Also, do not discount the loss federal lands, military spending, and defense contracts. It's a lot.

The biggest obstacle is getting the U.S. to allow it. The rest of the obstacles are hard, but we can handle it.

I doubt it. California could not finance the buyout.

The nation needs California less than California needs the nation. The rest is ego.

J

 

[Commodore]

The rest of the obstacles are hard, but we can handle it.

You sure? Have you ever gone through a real, extended water shortage without any help from other states or the federal government? It can be devastating. I saw what water shortages can do when I was in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[onejayhawk]

You sure? Have you ever gone through a real, extended water shortage without any help from other states or the federal government? It can be devastating. I saw what water shortages can do when I was in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Not to mention prices. Worse, most of the headwater and reservoirs are on federal land. That does not come with.

J

 

[Timsup2nothin]

These are probably the biggest obstacles to an independent California. I'm guessing those that do provide California with its electricity and water wouldn't be too keen on continuing to provide that to an independent California without getting anything in return.

LOL...what fantasy planet do you live on? Please provide coordinates, as the one where other states just provide electricity and water without getting anything in return is probably a REALLY great place to be a Californian. If you think the drain Arizona puts on the federal government is bad NOW, cut off the income they derive from exporting power to California.

Meanwhile, as has already been made pretty clear, Oregon most likely comes along (or leads the way...they were even quicker to start work on a ballot initiative) and they have plenty of water.

What I don't understand is why our local right wingers aren't supporting the usual right wing response of "go and don't let the door hit ya in the butt." All this talk of civil war and forced retention is pretty far off the mark, since the entire idea is based on we are not cut out to be a single nation. The coastal people who drive the economy...errrrrr, are just stupid *******s...have tried to steal America over and over from the real Americans. This division should appeal to all sides.

 

[CavLancer]

If they took Oregon and Washington along with, and swallowed their environmentalism, and somehow got Oregon to agree, with some epic public works projects those ex US states could provide Cali with plenty of water. End the drought, turn the desert green and all that. The stars could water their lawns they were crying about there for a bit. Salmon, well...

 

[Zelig]

Looking at specific things like water or power to figure out if leaving the country is a net positive is nonsense.

There are three relevant things:
1. Net dollars transferred to federal government.
2. Dollars saved by federal economies of scale.
3. Both state and country willing to sign mutually beneficial free trade agreement.

If 3 is true, and 1 is greater than 2, then leaving is a net positive. Every other possible variable is already included.

 

[Kyriakos]

It surely didn't help stability that the US added almost another 100 million people in 30 years...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_the_United_States

It is actually pretty good that with 300 million you still have a not UTTERLY insane situation. That said, the situation is not good at all, mostly due to all those wars.