You are the President on March 4, 1861...

[Hygro]

Oh. Right.
I keep forgetting that blacks with slaves are less wrong than whites with slaves.
In my book, slavery, by anyone, is evil.
There is NO distinction for what race the slaveholder or enslaved are.
It is an abomination pure and simple.
Saying that one is different from the other is like saying people cutting off the right hands of their victims are different from those who cut off the left hands. It is not really different.

I think the argument is more simple than that.

"Slavery + Racism is more evil than Slavery"

 

[bugwar]

The South assumed that the big bad gub'mint was going to take all their slaves, ...

And there you have it.
The South believed that, and that they had no effective recourse other than submission or rebellion.

 

[bugwar]

I think the argument is more simple than that.

"Slavery + Racism is more evil than Slavery"

Definitely a interesting morality standard.

 

[GamezRule]

I mean evil + evil is just more evil than evil.

 

[Hygro]

Definitely a interesting morality standard.

Pretty routine moral standard, I thought. Do you not agree that evil + more evil, or evil multiplied by another evil, is worse than just one type of evil by itself?

For example, if I stole your crops, that would be evil. But if I stole your crops and salted your earth afterward, that would be more evil.

 

[Phrossack]

And there you have it.
The South believed that, and that they had no effective recourse other than submission or rebellion.

If I'm on hallucinogens and believe that a random person on the street is a dragon that's trying to eat me, do I have no effective recourse but to run or shoot him?

The South had literally no reason to believe that Lincoln would abolish slavery. That they continued to believe so and took the most extreme measures to counter this imaginary threat is a sign of how sadly delusional they were.

 

[GamezRule]

It's the job of politicians to be somewhat rational and make policy decisions that don't cater to public sensationalism. Sadly that tends not to happen.

 

[bugwar]

Oh come off it. You talk about the South losing control of Congress like it's a bad thing. Why should the South have control over the entire nation?

Also, working towards eradicating an institution that allowed a ruling elite to oppress and deny even basic civil rights to a significant portion of the population is NOT oppression.

The idea that the end of slavery would spell economic and social doom for the South is patently false. This was a lie perpetuated by the wealthy aristocracy of the South in their vain effort to protect the status quo. Freeing the slaves and converting them to paid labor like the North did would have ushered in a new era of economic growth for the South, but it would have weakened the southern aristocracy.

So I hate to break it to you, but the fact of the matter is that the CSA is 100% to blame for the division of the United States and they are 100% responsible for the resulting war.

Okay, let me try this again.
The point I am trying to make is not what you or I believe the effects of the Republican victory in '60 portended for the nation, but what the people of the South believed the effects of said election would be.
Whether or not true, they believed that they were facing economic, cultural, and social ruin if they remained in the Union.
They saw no hope for political redress, and that separating from the old nation as the only course that had any chance of avoiding said ruin.

Despite the risks, they saw independence as their only choice for a future without catastrophe.

 

[bugwar]

Pretty routine moral standard, I thought. Do you not agree that evil + more evil, or evil multiplied by another evil, is worse than just one type of evil by itself?

For example, if I stole your crops, that would be evil. But if I stole your crops and salted your earth afterward, that would be more evil.

A person who believes that enslaving a person of your own race is less evil that one of a different race is a frighting concept.

 

[Commodore]

Okay, let me try this again.
The point I am trying to make is not what you or I believe the effects of the Republican victory in '60 portended for the nation, but what the people of the South believed the effects of said election would be.
Whether or not true, they believed that they were facing economic, cultural, and social ruin if they remained in the Union.
They saw no hope for political redress, and that separating from the old nation as the only course that had any chance of avoiding said ruin.

Despite the risks, they saw independence as their only choice for a future without catastrophe.

I understand that is how the South felt. However, their feelings on the matter were completely wrong and unjustified. As such, the horribly misguided Southern opinion on the matter cannot, in any way, be used as a justification for the bloodshed they alone were responsible for.

 

[Hygro]

A person who believes that enslaving a person of your own race is less evil that one of a different race is a frighting concept.

Nope, that's not what anyone argued either.

 

[Cutlass]

Okay, let me try this again.
The point I am trying to make is not what you or I believe the effects of the Republican victory in '60 portended for the nation, but what the people of the South believed the effects of said election would be.
Whether or not true, they believed that they were facing economic, cultural, and social ruin if they remained in the Union.
They saw no hope for political redress, and that separating from the old nation as the only course that had any chance of avoiding said ruin.

Despite the risks, they saw independence as their only choice for a future without catastrophe.

They knew abolition wasn't imminent. They weren't as pig-ignorant of the political process they had been dominating for the previous 80 years as you are making them out to be. This wasn't really about abolition. This was about having zero tolerance for anyone to even discuss the possibility of abolition. This was about the South trying to force the whole country into accepting slavery permanently.

 

[bugwar]

a person who believes that enslaving a person of your own race is less evil that one of a different race is a frighting concept.

nope, that's not what anyone argued either.

Oh, Really?

i think the argument is more simple than that.

"slavery + racism is more evil than slavery"

 

[Traitorfish]

The big problem with the "abolition was imminent" argument, I think, is that unfree black labour continued to play an important role in the Southern economy well into the twentieth century, through the use of primarily black convict-labour. So even if slavery had retreated in favour of wage-labour and share-cropping in some sectors, it seems likely that it would have remained in some sectors to some extent, because in practice that's exactly what happened, with only the slight amelioration that convicts might be set free at some point.

 

[Hygro]

Oh, Really?

Your error was assuming that the racism is summed up in "[...]a person of your own race is less evil that one of a different race". The issue here is not whether or not its one's own race or an "in-group" issue vs. some predefined others. In stating that you are defining racism as, first, that races are a thing, and second that expressing racism is when one person of one race does something antagonistic to someone of another race because of race. That isn't what racism is. Colloquially we often use it as such, but that's a misconception.

(If slavery was the only problem with race-based slavery social relations, then we wouldn't have had a century of Jim Crow trying to preserve everything those Southern white folk legally could with their desired racial caste system.)

 

[bugwar]

That isn't what racism is.

Great.
You explained what you believe racism isn't, please be so kind as to elaborate on what you think it is.

 

[Hygro]

Great.
You explained what you believe racism isn't, please be so kind as to elaborate on what you think it is.

A social-regulation structure that informs relations and status based on race, and that system's expressions. The distinction being that you could have a society in which white people are enslaving black people and it being not about race but ancient-world style conqueror-conquered and not based on the racial distinction itself as it was in the US. Alternatively, you could have black people enslaving black people under the guise that black people are subhuman and therefore ownable, but not owning white people. This also existed in the United States, and was also born out of racism.

I don't know much at all about the Ethiopian slave trade but glancing at the wiki apparently it was based on a local system of racism.

 

[Hygro]

Your error was assuming that

God, did I really write that? My apologies, bugwar, you're doing fine. Lord knows you put up with enough antagonism here and I for one appreciate that you stick through it anyway.

 

[bugwar]

God, did I really write that? My apologies, bugwar, you're doing fine. Lord knows you put up with enough antagonism here and I for one appreciate that you stick through it anyway.

Thank you.

Being the Devil's advocate has some exciting moments, and Lord knows I can on occasion get a bit zealous in my presentations.

A lot of the members on this forum have a good command of the facts in their posts, as well as some skill in presenting their words in a convincing manner.

You have all taught me to be a better communicator, though it doesn't always show in my words.

 

[bugwar]

I just want to see what you all in CFC would do if you were in Lincoln's shoes. Alternate history is always interesting. For additional challenge - what would you do if you were in Davis's shoes?

Somehow, I missed this part of the original post.
That IS a challenge.
What COULD you do as the President of the Confederacy differently that would make things better?

I would say resign, except that there is no guarantee that my replacement would be any worse as a leader than Davis was.

I guess that the question is what could I do to quicken the end of the conflict without getting impeached or assassinated before the South lost the war. I really have no idea how to accomplish that.