1.18 Civilizations - Brainstorming

Ballazic

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I quite like this idea. A Jewish civ without all the money-based resentment projected into it.
Don't we already have that (sans a civ slot) where theres an independent Jerusalem that spawns as the holy city for Judaism and usually has a ton of independent defenders.
 

brett0007

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I still think its silly to split indonesia tbh, its a single culturally contiguous area that shares a common identity.

Besides that id figure id have a stab at the Celts, The big issue with the "Celts" as a civ to me is its not actually one civ, its multiple. The Gauls of Ceasers day only really shared a broad language family and cultural ties to the medieval Scots, Irish and Welsh. Its the equivalent of saying the Italians and Romans are the same. In my incarnation I'm focusing more on the roman/and British parts of the celts. the timeframe is a bit squeezed to have

That being said ill try my best.

Celtic UP: the power of Adaptability, The UU's of the Celts change between the classical and medieval era. Half stability loss when city is conquered.

UB: Dun.

Classical:
Galllic Swordsman: replaces swordsman 6:strength: starts with guerilla and woodsman. unlocked with bloomary
Celtic chariot: replaces horseman 5:strength: can withdraw from combat starts with blitz unlocked with the wheel

Medieval
Saethwyr(replaces longbow) 6:strength: +1 first strike +50% hill +25% forests unlocked with fortification
Shiltron(replaces heavy spearman) 6:strength: +150% mounted +25% vs melee unlocked with nobility

Spawn 1200 BC Austria (Halstatt gives them a bit breathing room to play and develop as opposed to a la tane spawning after Rome)

UHV:
Celtic expansion: have 3 cities in Gaul, a city in Britain, a city in northern Italy and a city in iberia by 450 BC.
Barbaroi: Sack at least one Greek and one Roman city by 1 AD.
Prydain: Control the entirety of the British isles, Brittany and Iceland by 1000 AD.
 
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Leoreth

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Hey, these topics are currently very rhetorically fraught due to obvious connections to war propaganda. Please keep the discussion focused on the mod, this is not the right platform to contrast and discuss different historiographies.
 

brett0007

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Ill have a crack at the other civ I've been eagerly anticipating, the Swahili!

Spawn 900AD- reputed founding of Mombasa. Arab and indeed Roman/Greek sources go back much further to the BC's but are vague in detail.

UP:The Power of Indian ocean trade. Double trade revenue with civs that have a city on the Indian ocean coast.

UU
Dhow. Replaces heavy galley, Cannot enter ocean. Can enter foreign territory, can conduct trade mission in foreign cities(amount of :commerce: is dependant on number and type of luxury goods controlled) -dhow were primarily trade ships built in the Indian ocean basin to transport heavy goods like wood, fruit, spices, gold ext.
???

UHV
Masters of trade: Make X amount of gold via trade and Dhow by 1100 AD
Most beautiful town in the world: Have your capital city be in the top 5 cities in the world by 1330 AD(Kilwa was described by Ibn Battuta as "One of the beautiful cities of the World"
Swahili Dominance: Allow no European civs to have a city in east Africa by 1650 AD

Also add a cape at southern Mozambique coast to represent Cape Correntes, if their isn't already one.

 

GoneFishingX

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Ill have a crack at the other civ I've been eagerly anticipating, the Swahili!
So regarding Swahili I don't think Mombasa is the right start for them considering the city of Kilwa Kisiwani was the capital of the most powerful kingdom in the region until Portugal came into the picture. Merijn's civ I think has a ton of good ideas including the start date of around 950-970 AD. I also think it's a good idea to have a bunch of cities already placed when you spawn like Zanzibar, Mombasa, Mozambique, and Quleimane.

The big issue with Swahili is just how many cities were so closely packed together that are all important. Zanzibar, Mombasa, Mozambique, Quelimane, and Sofala all overlap each other terribly, but should prolly all exist. Riffing on what you came up with here's a few ideas I was working with.

Spawn: Kilwa (AD 950-AD970), with Islamic Missionary and a decent Army, Mozambique will flip (maybe Zanzibar, just to make you not have to suicide into it to cap it for UHV).

Government: Elective, Slavery, Clergy, Citizenship, Merchant Trade, Sovereignty

UP: East Indian Trade: Civs are more likely to trade resources and foreign trade routes provide Food, Production, and Gold until the Industrial Era. (Prolly ~25% like Multilateralism. This will give them about .25-.5 food/prod/gold from each trade route)
I like this power because historically the Swahili coast was really under developed and the City States imported most of their necessary goods.

UU: Dhow - Heavy Galley Replacement - Can enter foreign territory - Like the idea of trade missions, but not sure if that can be made a one shot power. Otherwise Merijn's idea of stationing it in a foreign city gives you gold is nice. A truly goofy idea is if it's stationed in a foreign city it starts a free trade route to your capital (not sure if doable).

UB: Mitaa (Local District) - Harbor replacement - Normal Harbor boosts, +1 trade route, +1 Happiness per imported resource.
This could be used to encourage aggressive resource trading as was standard for the city states along the coast.

UHV:
1) Kilwa's Grand Mosque:
Build an Islamic Grand Mosque in Kilwa Kisiwani by 1200.
I really like this UHV for the Swahili, while it's definitely overused the grand mosque in Kilwa is an extremely important monument, plus this will help historically turn the Swahili coast to Islam. Right now they are always orthodox. Plus it gives some interesting competition with the other UHV. Might be too many things to build but we'll see. Also this forces the settlement of Kilwa Kisiwani which is not in an ideal place.

2) Door to Africa: Have 30 foreign trade routes by 1450. (2 from default x8-9 cities along the coast = 18ish, +1 per lighthouse, +1 per Mitaa = 36 max)
Regarding this UHV I feel like earning money from trade is always a weak one. We already have so many civs that use that win con and I kinda wanna change it up. One of Kilwa's/the Swahili's big achievements was the level of urbanization with little agricultural power. From a skimming around the internet it seems they did little of their own farming but were still able to build beautiful architecture and dense (for the time and area) communities. This creates interesting decisions about how to spend production and encourages the use of citizenship to buy units. You will likely need to conquer a few cities. This makes money earned from Dhow and selling slaves very important.

3) Indian Ocean Traders: Acquire 10 resources through trade by 1500.
Not a huge fan of this, but not sure what else to do here. I feel like it might be too cheesy and overlaps too much thematically with 2. It could even be merged with 2. I guess the one cool thing is because you lack strategic resources this will reward you for acquiring them. I feel like many important parts of the Civ are covered in the other two UHV. Total sovereignty of the Swahili coast (1/2), Conversion (1), Indian Ocean Trade (2), Slave Trade (2), and Urbanization (1/2). There's the jokey one about founding a city in Australia which is not great and ahistorical. Protecting from invaders is pretty weak too, considering all you have to avoid is Portugal invasion trigger which could be really early or never. Having culture in Kilwa Kisiwani is a decent one, but I feel like we're already covering the urbanization with 1/2.
 

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Publicola

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Part of the difficulty with a 'Swahili' civ is just how many distinct phases it might represent -- you have the Kilwa Sultanate, but the Swahili coast has an identifiable culture and presence long before their arrival, and the same culture and trading presence lasts well into the Sultanate of Oman and Sultanate of Zanzibar into the 1800s. I'm not entirely sure how Leoreth plans to depict that, whether as primarily centered on the Kilwa or starting early).
1) Kilwa's Grand Mosque: Build an Islamic Grand Mosque in Kilwa Kisiwani by 1200.
I like this, though like Kiev, I'd recommend pushing the deadline closer to the civ's start date, so there's a bit of a rush to capture enough cities and spread Islam ASAP so the Grand Mosque can be built. The earliest date for the construction given on the Wikipedia page is 1131 -- not sure how feasible that would be, though, given the question mark about the civ's start date.

Something else to keep in mind: the Swahili coast was heavily involved in the slave trade. The region was the primary source of slaves for the Ummayad and Abbasid Caliphates (hence the 'Zanj Rebellion' -- Zanj was the Arabic word for both the region and its enslaved inhabitants). After the Zanj Rebellion, c. 900 AD, the slave trade took a back seat, or at least reduced in intensity until the Kilwa Sultanate's decline and the arrival of the Sultan of Oman (centered on Zanzibar). By that point, the Indian Ocean slave trade expanded to reach rough parity with the trans-Saharan slave trade and Ottoman slave raids in Eastern Europe and the steppe lands of Russia. Even so, estimates range from 1,000-6,000 slaves traded to the Arab world from the Swahili coast per year from 600 to 1900, so it was a major presence and a defining element of Swahili culture. I'm wondering if a Swahili civ should have a slave-trading UHV, like the Congo civ. It would given the player a reason to maintain a military presence along the coast,
 

Dracosolon

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I still think its silly to split indonesia tbh, its a single culturally contiguous area that shares a common identity.

Besides that id figure id have a stab at the Celts, The big issue with the "Celts" as a civ to me is its not actually one civ, its multiple. The Gauls of Ceasers day only really shared a broad language family and cultural ties to the medieval Scots, Irish and Welsh. Its the equivalent of saying the Italians and Romans are the same. In my incarnation I'm focusing more on the roman/and British parts of the celts. the timeframe is a bit squeezed to have

That being said ill try my best.

Celtic UP: the power of Adaptability, The UU's of the Celts change between the classical and medieval era. Half stability loss when city is conquered.

UB: Dun.

Classical:
Galllic Swordsman: replaces swordsman 6:strength: starts with guerilla and woodsman. unlocked with bloomary
Celtic chariot: replaces horseman 5:strength: can withdraw from combat starts with blitz unlocked with the wheel

Medieval
Saethwyr(replaces longbow) 6:strength: +1 first strike +50% hill +25% forests unlocked with fortification
Shiltron(replaces heavy spearman) 6:strength: +150% mounted +25% vs melee unlocked with nobility

Spawn 1200 BC Austria (Halstatt gives them a bit breathing room to play and develop as opposed to a la tane spawning after Rome)

UHV:
Celtic expansion: have 3 cities in Gaul, a city in Britain, a city in northern Italy and a city in iberia by 450 BC.
Barbaroi: Sack at least one Greek and one Roman city by 1 AD.
Prydain: Control the entirety of the British isles, Brittany and Iceland by 1000 AD.

Personally I like Krieger's proposal detailed here:

2) Celts

Spoiler :

Spawn/Location: 1200 BCE or 800 BCE/Austria (could be either Noreia [1N of easternmost Alps title] or Vindobona)
Spawn date represents the emergence of Hallstatt culture. The earlier date refers to the proto-Celts of Urnfield culture, while the latter is clearly a Celtic culture.
Leaders: Brennus (stone age), Boudica (classical age), someone medieval?
Color/Symbol: same of the minor civ (Green and Celtic knot)
Expansion stability: Core shifts during the game, similarly to the Phoenician civ. Initally the limited to the Hallstatt core, then shifts in 500 BCE (La Tène) to Gaul, then shifts to British Isles (when a palace is built there or is 275 CE (end of Gallo-Roman Gallic Empire), finally shifting to Ireland, Scotland and Wales around 500 CE (Anglo-Saxon invasions). Historical areas initially cover all the ones within Celtic maximum expansion (most of Iberia, Gaul, British Isles, Northern Italy, Central Europe, Balkans and Central Anatolia) but are reduced to only Gaul/Northern Iberia by the time of the British Isles core shift. The last core shift turns all Continental European and English areas foreign, with the exception of Brittany and Cornwall that still are Historical.

UP: Power of the Druids: unimproved forest titles beside a city gives + 10% unit production and + 2 culture when worked.
UU1: Galic Swordsman (replaces Swordsman, can be built with cooper, have a free March promotion).
UU2: a medieval unit, possibly Saethwyr (Longbowman, would work quite similarly to Indian Patiodha), Schiltron (Heavy Spearmen) or Gallowglass (Heavy Swordsman).
UB: Dun (replaces walls, gives + 1 culture and free Woodsman I promotion).

UHV:
1) Europa Celtica: Have 3 cities in Gaul and at least more 3 in any of the following regions: British isles, Iberia, Northern Italy, Balkans and Anatolia in 270 BCE and have a capital in with refined culture in the British isles by 1CE.
2) Brennus Legacy: sack or raze two capitals by 280 BCE.
Reference to the historical sack of Rome and the Celtic atempt to make the same in Delphi.
3) Celtic Christianity: build four Christian monasteries in four different landmasses by 800 CE.
The UHV would allow more activity to the early medieval and offer an victim to Vikings raids. The idea is to represent the Irish missions. Tipically, the four landmasses would be Continental Europe, Great Britain, Ireland and Iceland (refering to the supposed Irish monks that lived there before Viking expansion).

Additional notes:
* We could also re-introduce the Stonehenge wonder. It could have a requirement of being built with x forest titles within the city radious or that it only could be built in landmasses of xx titles maximum (think about Britain) to ensure that the Mediterranean civs could not buid it easily.
* AI Rome would possibly need a conqueror's event to cope with the new Celtic civ. It could be triggered in 50 BCE (Caeser conquest's) and would spawn legionaries in Gaul and Britain (England).
* Many of these ideas were inspired in older comments here in the forum, so I thank all suggestions made until now.

I would adjust the UHV a bit though:

1) Vae Victis: Conquer two civilizations' capitals and gain X gold from sacking and tribute by [date].
The wording needs to be two civilizations rather than two capitals, otherwise you can cheese it by taking a civ's capital twice.

2) Europa Celtica: Control 6 Nemetons, 4 Duns and X Forest tiles in 1 CE.
The number of forest tiles should be suitably huge to encourage expansion while giving you some flexibility as to how to accomplish it. However your stability would be poor enough that ahistorical settling would be discouraged. This has overlap with the Druidic URV (20 unimproved forest or march tiles), but that one should probably be changed anyway since the Celts could accomplish it without too much effort. The number of buildings could also be increased if we want more of a challenge.

3) Celtic Christianity: Build seven state religion monasteries on four different landmasses and have two cities with [X level] culture in the British Isles by 800 CE.
I feel like the UHV can afford to be more challenging given its late date and the fact that you only need to build the monasteries, not control them at a certain date (though that could be included if we want a focus on resistance to the emerging civs). The culture deadline could also come later, especially if we want some synergy with a possible Irish or Scottish wonder - though that risks being a bit less exciting.

I also think the expansion system should be simplified. Maybe that could be part of the UP? Though I also like the idea of giving some small bonus from forests, so maybe it could be something like: "Core territory follows the Palace among Historical territories. +10% unit production per worked Forest."

In terms of flipping to new civs, Ireland, Scotland and maybe even Britanny should be excluded.
 
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brett0007

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So regarding Swahili I don't think Mombasa is the right start for them considering the city of Kilwa Kisiwani was the capital of the most powerful kingdom in the region until Portugal came into the picture. Merijn's civ I think has a ton of good ideas including the start date of around 950-970 AD. I also think it's a good idea to have a bunch of cities already placed when you spawn like Zanzibar, Mombasa, Mozambique, and Quleimane.

The big issue with Swahili is just how many cities were so closely packed together that are all important. Zanzibar, Mombasa, Mozambique, Quelimane, and Sofala all overlap each other terribly, but should prolly all exist. Riffing on what you came up with here's a few ideas I was working with.

Spawn: Kilwa (AD 950-AD970), with Islamic Missionary and a decent Army, Mozambique will flip (maybe Zanzibar, just to make you not have to suicide into it to cap it for UHV).

Government: Elective, Slavery, Clergy, Citizenship, Merchant Trade, Sovereignty

UP: East Indian Trade: Civs are more likely to trade resources and foreign trade routes provide Food, Production, and Gold until the Industrial Era. (Prolly ~25% like Multilateralism. This will give them about .25-.5 food/prod/gold from each trade route)
I like this power because historically the Swahili coast was really under developed and the City States imported most of their necessary goods.

UU: Dhow - Heavy Galley Replacement - Can enter foreign territory - Like the idea of trade missions, but not sure if that can be made a one shot power. Otherwise Merijn's idea of stationing it in a foreign city gives you gold is nice. A truly goofy idea is if it's stationed in a foreign city it starts a free trade route to your capital (not sure if doable).

UB: Mitaa (Local District) - Harbor replacement - Normal Harbor boosts, +1 trade route, +1 Happiness per imported resource.
This could be used to encourage aggressive resource trading as was standard for the city states along the coast.

UHV:
1) Kilwa's Grand Mosque:
Build an Islamic Grand Mosque in Kilwa Kisiwani by 1200.
I really like this UHV for the Swahili, while it's definitely overused the grand mosque in Kilwa is an extremely important monument, plus this will help historically turn the Swahili coast to Islam. Right now they are always orthodox. Plus it gives some interesting competition with the other UHV. Might be too many things to build but we'll see. Also this forces the settlement of Kilwa Kisiwani which is not in an ideal place.

2) Door to Africa: Have 30 foreign trade routes by 1450. (2 from default x8-9 cities along the coast = 18ish, +1 per lighthouse, +1 per Mitaa = 36 max)
Regarding this UHV I feel like earning money from trade is always a weak one. We already have so many civs that use that win con and I kinda wanna change it up. One of Kilwa's/the Swahili's big achievements was the level of urbanization with little agricultural power. From a skimming around the internet it seems they did little of their own farming but were still able to build beautiful architecture and dense (for the time and area) communities. This creates interesting decisions about how to spend production and encourages the use of citizenship to buy units. You will likely need to conquer a few cities. This makes money earned from Dhow and selling slaves very important.

3) Indian Ocean Traders: Acquire 10 resources through trade by 1500.
Not a huge fan of this, but not sure what else to do here. I feel like it might be too cheesy and overlaps too much thematically with 2. It could even be merged with 2. I guess the one cool thing is because you lack strategic resources this will reward you for acquiring them. I feel like many important parts of the Civ are covered in the other two UHV. Total sovereignty of the Swahili coast (1/2), Conversion (1), Indian Ocean Trade (2), Slave Trade (2), and Urbanization (1/2). There's the jokey one about founding a city in Australia which is not great and ahistorical. Protecting from invaders is pretty weak too, considering all you have to avoid is Portugal invasion trigger which could be really early or never. Having culture in Kilwa Kisiwani is a decent one, but I feel like we're already covering the urbanization with 1/2.
Here is an idea. The dhow gives you access to a cities luxury and food resource effects?
 

Krieger-FS

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Personally I like Krieger's proposal detailed here:



I would adjust the UHV a bit though:

1) Vae Victis: Conquer two civilizations' capitals and gain X gold from sacking and tribute by [date].
The wording needs to be two civilizations rather than two capitals, otherwise you can cheese it by taking a civ's capital twice.

2) Europa Celtica: Control 6 Nemetons, 4 Duns and X Forest tiles in 1 CE.
The number of forest tiles should be suitably huge to encourage expansion while giving you some flexibility as to how to accomplish it. However your stability would be poor enough that ahistorical settling would be discouraged. This has overlap with the Druidic URV (20 unimproved forest or march tiles), but that one should probably be changed anyway since the Celts could accomplish it without too much effort. The number of buildings could also be increased if we want more of a challenge.

3) Celtic Christianity: Build seven state religion monasteries on four different landmasses and have two cities with [X level] culture in the British Isles by 800 CE.
I feel like the UHV can afford to be more challenging given its late date and the fact that you only need to build the monasteries, not control them at a certain date (though that could be included if we want a focus on resistance to the emerging civs). The culture deadline could also come later, especially if we want some synergy with a possible Irish or Scottish wonder - though that risks being a bit less exciting.

I also think the expansion system should be simplified. Maybe that could be part of the UP? Though I also like the idea of giving some small bonus from forests, so maybe it could be something like: "Core territory follows the Palace among Historical territories. +10% unit production per worked Forest."

In terms of flipping to new civs, Ireland, Scotland and maybe even Britanny should be excluded.

Thanks for remembering that suggestion! I'd just add some additional thoughts:

1) While I agree with brett007 that is better to not use this civ to represent medieval kingdoms and modern Ireland/Scotland, I think we can reasonably link them with the earlier middle ages (i.e., the "dark age") Brittonic, Picts and Gaels. And I have to say, I'm really fond of UHV3 representing these later Celts and their monastic tradition. To give the proper credit for it, the original suggestion for it was made back in 2014 by brett007 and Publicola in this thread.

2) I'd give a proper UU name instead of the generic Gallic Swordsman. In the same DoCR thread we discussed as possible names Gaesatae (eventually chosen), Bataroas and Gargokladioi, which all are proper Celtic names for it.

3) While I understand the many reasons to do not, I'd love to see something representing the Galatians. If not included in the Celtic civ (though I think we could have some historical tiles there), it could be a Barbarian spawn in Greece/Anatolia. I feel that these out-of-place, syncretic, and almost exotic polities/peoples, like the Indo-Greeks, are some of the most interesting and fun civs to see/play!
 

brett0007

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Thanks for remembering that suggestion! I'd just add some additional thoughts:

1) While I agree with brett007 that is better to not use this civ to represent medieval kingdoms and modern Ireland/Scotland, I think we can reasonably link them with the earlier middle ages (i.e., the "dark age") Brittonic, Picts and Gaels. And I have to say, I'm really fond of UHV3 representing these later Celts and their monastic tradition. To give the proper credit for it, the original suggestion for it was made back in 2014 by brett007 and Publicola in this thread.

2) I'd give a proper UU name instead of the generic Gallic Swordsman. In the same DoCR thread we discussed as possible names Gaesatae (eventually chosen), Bataroas and Gargokladioi, which all are proper Celtic names for it.

3) While I understand the many reasons to do not, I'd love to see something representing the Galatians. If not included in the Celtic civ (though I think we could have some historical tiles there), it could be a Barbarian spawn in Greece/Anatolia. I feel that these out-of-place, syncretic, and almost exotic polities/peoples, like the Indo-Greeks, are some of the most interesting and fun civs to see/play!
My intention with the last UHV was to go a bit alt hist like some of the other UHV's and represent a sub Roman Romano-British kingdom that united and successfully drove/reconquered the Saxon kingdoms ala Ambrosius Aurelianus. The monasticism goal strikes me as a bit odd as it wasn't really a uniquely Celtic thing in that the early English, being converted by a mission from Rome had a rich monastic tradition too. I used generic names for the earlier UU's because I don't know much about gallic. Im much more competent with medieval Celts than classical. Don't get me wrong I adore my weird little syncretic cultures but the issue with them is in historical terms they'd fit only a dozen or so turns. I tried to represent the Galatians with the sack UHV.
 

BenZL43

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I still think its silly to split indonesia tbh, its a single culturally contiguous area that shares a common identity.

On a contrary, I think the idea of splitting the Indonesian civilization is brilliant.

The concept of “common identity” was relatively unknown back then — it’s a new invention that can be traced as early as May 20th, 1908 (National Awakening Day) that culminates in Oct 28th, 1928 (Sumpah Pemuda Day). It was mainly motivated by resentment from colonization, romanticism of the past and the necessity to unite to ward off the Dutch. Not even the word “Indonesia” is of native origin.

After independence, this nationalism idea became the main building blocks for the modern Indonesian society as it is emphasized in education and government policy. Venture away from the melting pot in urban cities and you’ll still see the different cultures prominently.

The closest to a national-level identity I can think of was when Gajah Mada tried to unite the archipelago under the sphere of influence of Java-based Majapahit (recent studies suggests they might not physically control every location mentioned in Ngarakrtagama).

There is ongoing debate and awareness where non-Javanese people are wary of increasing Javanese dominance in daily practice and the loss of their cultures. This was due to Javanese being the dominant ethnicity, Java is the most populous island, 32 years of trump-esque “Java First” policy and forced (Javanese) transmigration to every part of Indonesia. Therefore the prospect of moving the capital to a more neutral location is desired and well-appreciated.

TL;DR: Java and Malay should be a different civilization. It looks contiguous and share a common identity because the Government wishes so 😏
 

GoldenBronze

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With version 1.17 nearly finished, and Leoreth's Plans for DOC 1.18 just posted, I thought that now would be a good time for a dedicated brainstorming thread to develop the 12 (!) new civilizations to be included in version 1.18.

Here's the full list:


And here are the approximate starting eras when they would spawn:

Ancient: Nubian, Assyrian, Hittite
Classical: Vietnam, Kushan, Celt, Toltec
Medieval: Javanese, Malay, Burma, Swahili, Kievan Rus
Early Modern: Sweden

There have been many suggestions and proposals for many of these civ's unique attributes (Unique Buildings, Unique Units, Unique Powers, Unique Historical Victory conditions), but there will almost certainly be changes, given that these civs will be accompanied by a new world map.

In other words, let the brainstorming begin continue!

EDIT: per Leoreth's comment, moved Vietnam to a Classical start/spawn
Nice! I want to comment on the inclusion of the Kushans, however.
The main gameplay reason for them seems to be that they straddle India and Central Asia in a time period when there isn't much else to be done there, which is undeniable.
However, from the historical standpoint, the Kushans would only last for some 300 years, and Afghanistan would never again become the seat of a large and lasting empire. Hence, it'd be a pretty short-lived civ.
So, I would argue for including a civ in central India instead of the Kushans, let's call it Deccan for now. Gameplay-wise, it has a similar function of challenging India (as well as the Tamils), but since the Deccan has been the seat of powerful empires almost continuously from ~2nd century BCE till ~18th century AD, it can do so for much longer.
Historically, central India (generally corresponding to modern Maharashtra, northern Karnataka and Telangana) was the heartland of major Indian empires since antiquity: Satavahana, Vakataka, Chalukya, Rashtrakuta, Chalukya again, <intermission due to Delhi eating it all>, Bahmani and Marathas. These empires were all fighting against other major empires located to their north (the India civ) or their south (the Tamil civ) all the time.
Of course, this still leaves Central Asia empty in a time when it most certainly was not [this is unfortunately unavoidable, unless one replaces, say, the Celts or the Kievan Rus, with an antique Central Asian civ (personally, I'd rather not have the Kushans or an Afghanistan civ, but I'm not well-versed enough in Central Asia to offer a good alternative)].
But I think the benefits of a more historical and dynamic India are more important. South Asia was historically disunited with occasional union after all, and North Indian and South Indian empires alike stumbled in the tough Deccan, whose interior birthed formidable empires of its own.
Of course, this means the preexisting India civ will be restricted to being primarily Gangetic... as it should, tbh. After the Guptas, there were a few minor kingdoms it can represent (a brief anti-Hun coalition led by Malwa, the empire of Harsha etc), and then of course the Republic of India in the modern period.
The big problem, of course, is deciding what this Deccan civ should be like. The region is culturally and linguistically diverse (of the empires named above, I think Satavahana was Andhra, Chalukya and Rashtrakuta were Kannada, Bahmani was Persianate and Maratha is self-explanatory). Plus, I'm more a player than a modder, so I must leave concrete design to the capable. Nevertheless, I do think that this civ should be primarily militarily oriented (being situated in a generally less bountiful region, boxed in by two other civs), with maybe a secondary trade aspect (commerce was a somewhat-major thing too: Dakshinapatha, trade on the western coast, the diamond trade etc).
Unique units shouldn't be too difficult: my mind personally goes to Bahmani cannons (seriously, their artillery was kinda insane) and Maratha... Marathas lol.
In terms of UHVs... uh, survive? I jest, but as you have seen, the region has been repeatedly invaded, especially by north Indian empires on their path to subcontinental dominion, and has also repaid the favour as well. I would suggest one UHV be something like to control every city in South Asia at any one time before 1800. Another could be about building some wonders before a certain year, though that's a bit bland as far as UHVs go. Something related to having a stronk military could do as well.
If it's at all possible to implement (and it's totally fine if it isn't), one UHV could perhaps be something like uniting and forming India by 1950.
 

Cacaso

Warlord
Joined
Apr 9, 2020
Messages
122
Maybe add a CIV Khanate of Sibir, it would be interesting, this was a khanate with capital in Qasliq (near the current city of Tobolsk) it is located in Siberia at the gates of the European Russia area, in an area close to the Ob and Irtich rivers. It existed between the years 1468–1598, when it was conquered and annexed by Russia. Interesting fact is that with the conquest of this khanate, Russia paved the way for the conquest of the entire rest of the Siberian area.

Because it is a very empty area of the map, I think it will be interesting, as it would be an obstacle to be overcome by CIV Russia to carry out its expansion through Siberia, which in the current form occurs in an ahistorical way, as it is extremely peaceful.

Source:
 

DC123456789

Deity
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Messages
3,146
Location
Canada
Nice! I want to comment on the inclusion of the Kushans, however.
The main gameplay reason for them seems to be that they straddle India and Central Asia in a time period when there isn't much else to be done there, which is undeniable.
However, from the historical standpoint, the Kushans would only last for some 300 years, and Afghanistan would never again become the seat of a large and lasting empire. Hence, it'd be a pretty short-lived civ.

You can make a good argument that the Kushan civ could be easily extended to include the Hephthalites and Hunas, which would roughly double the historical timeframe of the civ.
 

Krieger-FS

Warlord
Joined
Jun 29, 2018
Messages
192
Location
Somewhere in the Southern Hemisphere
Nice! I want to comment on the inclusion of the Kushans, however.
The main gameplay reason for them seems to be that they straddle India and Central Asia in a time period when there isn't much else to be done there, which is undeniable.
However, from the historical standpoint, the Kushans would only last for some 300 years, and Afghanistan would never again become the seat of a large and lasting empire. Hence, it'd be a pretty short-lived civ.
So, I would argue for including a civ in central India instead of the Kushans, let's call it Deccan for now.
You can make a good argument that the Kushan civ could be easily extended to include the Hephthalites and Hunas, which would roughly double the historical timeframe of the civ.

I’m not sure about Leoreth’s specific ideas for the Kushans, but I do think they were included in this first batch of new civs because they tend to have a pretty significant impact on India, Central Asia and neighboring civs depending in how they are designed. If we think this civ encompassing the Kushan Empire, the earlier Yuezhi, Hephthalites, and Hunas (which was the idea that I’ve proposed and eventually was eventually included with some changes in 1SDAN’s DoCR), we have a civ that existed from around 400 BCE to 700 CE that will spawn in the Hexi Corridor and slowly move/relocate (similarly to the Turkic civ) to modern Pakistan/India, which obviously will demand more attention to balance and development in game than a more “static” civ. As he stated before, these first civs are not exactly the most relevant from a historical point of view, but from the impact that they may have on gameplay/balance.
 
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Dracosolon

Prince
Joined
Aug 21, 2010
Messages
328
Location
France
What modern dynamic names would these civs have, assuming they survive/respawn in the modern day?

Javanese - Indonesia or Java.
Malays - Malaysia, alternatively Indonesia if they have the territory?
Vietnamese - Vietnam.
Burmese - Burma.
Kushans - Afghanistan or Pakistan? Honestly, the cultural identities across the ages behind the various Indian and India-adjacent civs might need to be rethought from the ground up if more of them are eventually going to be introduced.
Swahili - Kenya or Tanzania?
Nubians - Sudan.
Assyrians - Iraq or Syria?
Hittites - Since they would conflict with modern Turkey, they might need an ahistorical name if both are alive.
Celts - Ireland or Scotland, maybe "Celtic Nations" (even if that's more of a cultural concept).
Swedes - Sweden.
Kievan Rus - Ukraine.
Toltecs - Mexico if they have the territory (I'm assuming Mexico only spawns if both Toltecs and Aztecs are dead), otherwise ahistorical name if they have to share with the Aztecs.

More of these could have ahistorical names, obviously.
 

FishFishFish

Warlord
Joined
Jun 26, 2021
Messages
104
IMO:

Swahili - Kenya or Tanzania?
Celts - Ireland or Scotland, maybe "Celtic Nations" (even if that's more of a cultural concept).

The Swahili should only be Tanzania or Kenya if they are colonized and respawned. Otherwise it should remain as the Sultanate of Zanzibar or the Kilwa Sultanate. Both the Celts and the Swahili's names should depend on the location of their capital.

Malays - Malaysia, alternatively Indonesia if they have the territory?

Malaysia is fine. Leave Indonesia to the Javanese.

Kushans - Afghanistan or Pakistan? Honestly, the cultural identities across the ages behind the various Indian and India-adjacent civs might need to be rethought from the ground up if more of them are eventually going to be introduced.

Mughals already become Pakistan on respawn so the Kushans should be Afghanistan on respawn.
 

Steb

King
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
935
Location
Montréal
What modern dynamic names would these civs have, assuming they survive/respawn in the modern day?

Javanese - Indonesia or Java.
Malays - Malaysia, alternatively Indonesia if they have the territory?
Vietnamese - Vietnam.
Burmese - Burma.
Kushans - Afghanistan or Pakistan? Honestly, the cultural identities across the ages behind the various Indian and India-adjacent civs might need to be rethought from the ground up if more of them are eventually going to be introduced.
Swahili - Kenya or Tanzania?
Nubians - Sudan.
Assyrians - Iraq or Syria?
Hittites - Since they would conflict with modern Turkey, they might need an ahistorical name if both are alive.
Celts - Ireland or Scotland, maybe "Celtic Nations" (even if that's more of a cultural concept).
Swedes - Sweden.
Kievan Rus - Ukraine.
Toltecs - Mexico if they have the territory (I'm assuming Mexico only spawns if both Toltecs and Aztecs are dead), otherwise ahistorical name if they have to share with the Aztecs.

More of these could have ahistorical names, obviously.
Many of them are cool opportunities to represent modern countries in the late game, but obviously not all civs should respawn. For instance Phoenicia, the Maya, or Babylon don't, and neither should the Assyrians, Hittites, or Toltecs.
 
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