1.18 Civilizations - Brainstorming

[Steb]

For reference:

Very nice. From a cursory look, it seems that the following parts of color space are underutilized: light greens, light purples (mauve, periwinkle, etc.), very dark purples, pinks (e.g. China's vanilla Civ4 color), blue-greens, off-whites.

Also: should Italy/Rome, Persia/Iran, and Mexico/Aztecs get (slightly) different color schemes now?

 

[Leoreth]

I am wondering if you could even use the script to automatically find new colours by maximising the minimum distance to all other colours in a given colour space.

 

[Dracosolon]

You can generate distinct colors that way, but once you hit a huge number of colors you need something more optimal. Such a method has weaker performances on certain plages of hues that look very similar to the human eye (like the huge splash of green that RGB gets - though I suspect combining it with HSV/HSL might yield improved results). For some time I've had the idle fantasy of using the survey data behind the XKCD color survey to try to come up with a way to calculate the subjective similarity of two colors (through overlap in survey answers), maybe I'll get around to writing it one day.

 

[Leoreth]

Yes I was thinking about an HSL colour space - iirc HSL tracks pretty closely with human perceptions of colour differences.

 

[need my speed]

I am wondering if you could even use the script to automatically find new colours by maximising the minimum distance to all other colours in a given colour space.

Probably not, because colours look differently in Civilization IV. If you look at my picture, many colours look almost indistinguishable to the human eye, but in Civilization IV they look different. Meanwhile, shades of faded brown/yellow (to name an example) that look quite distinct to the human eye, look virtually the same in Civilization IV.

 

[Steb]

All right, so I made a proposal for the color scheme of the 13 new civs. I find that having colors helps me to visualize the civs and brainstorm them, so there's some value in doing that now IMO. But mostly it's for fun.

Here's my reasoning for all of the colors, roughly in order from most backed by real-world evidence to most "I just felt like these colors fit well":

• Sweden: these are exactly the colors of the current Swedish flag. This exact scheme has been used in some mods, (e.g. RFC Europe I think), with good results.
• Vietnam: red on yellow is the most common color scheme on historical Vietnamese flags (and the current one is yellow on red). I tried to find a shade of yellow that wouldn't conflict with China and Spain (Vietnam will probably often interact with Spain through the Philippines).
• Swahilis: other mods have given the Swahilis green colors, which seems intuitive, but I realized that most civs the Swahilis would interact with also use green: Ethiopia, Congo, Arabia, Portugal. (It's kind of a cliché to give African and Islamic civs the color green.) The red and greenish yellow I picked are directly from the historical flags of the Sultanate of Zanzibar. The red also evokes the Omani empire. One concern is that it might look too much like the colors of England, who'd be expected to colonize Eastern Africa, so the shade of red might need to be adjusted.
• Kievan Rus: the colors of the Ukrainian flag, which go back to the Kingdom of Galicia-Volhyna. Unlike Sweden these are not the exact colors; I picked a brighter blue, since no other civ uses sky blue.
• Toltecs: I've already made my case for this one elsewhere. Red and jade is a common color scheme in Mesoamerican art, and it contrasts nicely with the Maya and other pre-Columbian civs.
• Burma: lots of choice from historical Burmese flags. One idea was the green-and-gold of the Hanthawaddy Kingdom, but that looked too much like other green civs such as Brazil. I went with two colors from the peacock on the Konbaung dynasty flag, especially since no other civ uses a turquoise color.
• Celts: I preserved the pale green secondary color as a nod to the old (current) Celts implementation. For the main color I picked a dark green with a slight bluish hue, which is similar to a color known as Celtic green (though the slightly darker tone I picked looks prettier), represents e.g. Ireland well, and contrasts nicely with Rome and basically all other European civs.
• Assyria: ancient civs are rarely closely associated with any colors, so for Assyria and others below, any colors could fit. On the other hand, Assyrians do have some recent (20th century) ethnic flags. The secondary blue is from the current flag, and the pinkish orange is somewhere between the golden disc at the middle of the current flag, and the pink color at the top of the old Assyrian tricolor. I also thought that pinkish orange is a pretty color that no one else uses and that fits well with the generally warm colors of the ancient Middle Eastern civs.
• Malays: I mostly picked a color that I liked and wasn't used, but there's some weak historical precedent for this raspberry color in the flag of the small Sultanate of Sulu. Many historical flags of Malay sultanates use black, which would be an alternative, but I don't really see how to have a black color that's distinct enough from Barbarians and Independents. I tried really dark purple/raspberry and it just looked worse.
• Java: I'm not a big fan of Indonesia's current teal color, and it's very similar to the Inca color, so I picked something else. The most historical colors for Javanese civilization, especially the Majapahit Empire, would be red and white, but that's kind of overused. I went with pale green because no one uses that at all; no one uses green in general in Southeast and East Asia; green evokes Islam; and green happens to be used for a lot of Indonesian subnational flags.
• Kushans: could be anything; I drew inspiration from lapis lazuli, mined in Afghanistan since ancient times. Surprisingly few civs use deep blue colors. Might conflict somewhat with the Turks, but that doesn't seem too worrying.
• Hittites: could be anything. The only civ with a shade close to white is Japan, and I felt there could be another, especially a nice yellowish off-white, which also fits well with the general palette of the ancient Middle East.
• Nubia: could be anything; I picked deep purple because why not, and it contrasts well with Egypt and Ethiopia.

Note that I didn't test any of them in game, so don't put too much credence in contrasts and so on from just that one screenshot.

 

[Publicola]

• Nubia: could be anything; I picked deep purple because why not, and it contrasts well with Egypt and Ethiopia.

Personally, I'd be in favor of swapping your proposed Nubia color with the color for Phoenicia; give the 'Purple People' the deep purple, and give Nubia the blu-ish purple that Phoenicia currently uses. (Admittedly the purple dye characteristic of Phoenicia probably was closer to a dark violet-blue, but after three thousand years of history, it is 'royal purple' that is traditionally associated with their purple dye exports, so I'd prefer the royal purple version for Phoenicia

 

[Steb]

Personally, I'd be in favor of swapping your proposed Nubia color with the color for Phoenicia; give the 'Purple People' the deep purple, and give Nubia the blu-ish purple that Phoenicia currently uses. (Admittedly the purple dye characteristic of Phoenicia probably was closer to a dark violet-blue, but after three thousand years of history, it is 'royal purple' that is traditionally associated with their purple dye exports, so I'd prefer the royal purple version for Phoenicia

Yeah that could be a good idea, though I don't know if it's worth messing with the color schemes of existing civs. Not sure also what shade the Tyrian purple actually was—I thought it was more reddish?

 

[brett0007]

Yeah that could be a good idea, though I don't know if it's worth messing with the color schemes of existing civs. Not sure also what shade the Tyrian purple actually was—I thought it was more reddish?

Tyrian purple is more or less the shade of purple used for Byzantium in game and Stebs chart. Im not sure if its the same shade exactly.

 

[Space_76]

Suggestion:
Use the new World map as a base and let all civilizations start at the same time with the same few techs.
Keep the specialities and the Unique Units.

If 2 civs start from same location move one of them a few steps away.

In general,
Make it possible to start from scratch and be able to win a space race with Congo (or your prefered civ).

 

[Leoreth]

Stop asking me to make a non-RFC mod and play one of the many mods that already exist that are not RFC mods.

 

[freethink]

Will Vietnam have enough space in Southeast Asia to function without being overwhelmed by Thailand and Cambodia?
Also, might it be possible that China's and Vietnam's historical zones could conflict? China should certainly see Hanoi as a contested area before the Reannasiance era. By contrast, I wonder if Vietnam's original historical zone could extend into southern China given the existence of Baiyue tribes on both sides of the border and the existence of the Nanyue Kingdom.

 

[Dracosolon]

With 4 civs Indochina will probably become the most crowded area of the map but they might not all exist at the same time anyway. You can see proposals for city placements on this page.

 

[Steb]

Pagan religions of the new civs:

• Sweden: Asatru
• Celts: Druidism
• Toltecs: Teotl
• Assyria: Annunaki
• Malays, Java, Burma: Vedism
• Rus': Rodnovery
• Nubia: Pesedjet

The above are the obvious; the below are the more tricky cases.

• Swahilis: should it be the same as Arabia and Ethiopia (Annunaki)? or something more natively African?
• Hittites: they should have their own, but I don't know what to call it; I gather that we know very little about Hittite religion
• Kushans: they were an incredibly syncretic people who worshipped Greek, Iranian, and Hindu gods... I'd say it should not be Tengrism, since they were not Turkic or Mongol. I'd go with Mazdaism I think, or something custom
• Vietnam: should have its own—Vietnamese people still predominantly practice their folk religion (also they had Buddhist and Confucian influence too)

 

[freethink]

I assume the third goal would be standard: No more than half of cities have religion.

• Vietnam- Dao Luong
  • first goal: Linh (connection of deities to land of living) : Build a temple, granary and barracks before a certain date (0 CE maybe?), secure incense resources and all cities must be happy. If all of these cannot be incorporated into one condition then I would recommend having: happiest cities in the world.
  • second goal Trung: No Foreign culture in historical territory by 100 CE and build 10 war elephants
  • uses this image if possible: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...vg/1024px-Vietnamese_Five_Colors_Flag.svg.png
• Hittites - unsure but one idea is to call it Teteshhawi, meaning great god
  • first goal: Together with 1000 Gods: build one barracks, aqueduct, stable, courthouse, granary, pagan temple and a smokehouse in different cities and
  • second goal: Welcoming Ishtar trade a resource with another (or two other) civilizations.
  • Explanation: Hittite deities often diverge widely based on location but in their stories diverse gods work together to solve problems. Therefore each Hittite city had a different specialty or strength in mythology. Other gods came to Hittites through trade hence the second condition of the goal
  • uses this image if possible: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe..._sun_disk.svg/1024px-Hittite_sun_disk.svg.png
• Swahili- as the Congo uses Yoruba religion and they are also Bantu peoples I think Yoruba could be used here, however it could have a different goal. Similar to Aztecs/Mayans
  • earn 500 gold from trade with other civilizations. However the original Yoruba goal could also work here.
• Kushans- Problematic because by the time they reached superpower status they had incorporated many religions and were important for Buddhism's development. I second the idea that it should not use Tengrism because more than likely Scythian ideas influenced the later Tengrism certainly not the other way around. I hate to be generic here but it seems that their religion came from Proto-Iranian ideas which would make it similar to Mazdasim.

edits: made goals harder.

 

[Dracosolon]

Don't Pagan URVs have two generic goals and one custom?

 

[Krieger-FS]

One possible Swahili pagan religion (also stretching a little, since they seem to have adopted Islam pretty early and being Muslim is a significant part of their identity) is to use the Somali (and Oromo) pagan religion, Waaqism or Waaqeffanna. We discussed this idea for Ethiopia pagan religion a couple years ago here. I'm not sure about their specific URV, though.

I know they aren’t really related, but it seems better to use a nearby option than Yoruba, Shona (Mwari) religion, or Annunaki (which is the ancient Mesopotamian religion, but there is a reason why is Ethiopia's option there). Besides, I also used some Somali names for the Swahili CNM in the Horn of Africa and Southern Ethiopia.

 

[freethink]

Don't Pagan URVs have two generic goals and one cu

One possible Swahili pagan religion (also stretching a little, since they seem to have adopted Islam pretty early and being Muslim is a significant part of their identity) is to use the Somali (and Oromo) pagan religion, Waaqism or Waaqeffanna. We discussed this idea for Ethiopia pagan religion a couple years ago here. I'm not sure about their specific URV, though.

I know they aren’t really related, but it seems better to use a nearby option than Yoruba, Shona (Mwari) religion, or Annunaki (which is the ancient Mesopotamian religion, but there is a reason why is Ethiopia's option there). Besides, I also used some Somali names for the Swahili CNM in the Horn of Africa and Southern Ethiopia.

I proposed Yoruba because from what I could tell, many tribes that fell into the Swahili sphere of influence are from Bantu origins. In all honesty, I was surprised when Yoruba was used as a placeholder for Congo. Given that both Swahili and Congo are from the Bantu world and that Yoruba is not a perfect choice I thought it would look strange that Yoruba was used for Congo but not Swahili. I admit it's not a very sound arrangement.

One idea for a UHV goal for Waqq (if it was used) is to win 5-10 battles with a great general given the legends of Queen Arawelo, not sure how Somalia would get a unique general but it is a unique goal at least.

 

[freethink]

Another idea for the UHV could be based on this

"The Waaqeffanna religion has no scriptures or holy books that exist today. The Waaqeffataas believe that Waaqa gave the Oromo a holy book, but it was swallowed by a cow. Because Waaqa was angry, he didn't provide a second book. The faithful who follow this religion hence look for the lost book in the intestines of cows. Where the religion is practiced, experts are called after cow slaughtering ceremonies to examine the lining of the intestines for meaning."

Build 10 pastures, perhaps? This is more like other Pagan UHV's (not sure if that is good or bad)

 

[Kott]

Rus': Rodnovery

That should not be so. Rodnovery is an artificially created pseudo religion, introduced in 19th century.