1.18 Civilizations - Brainstorming

[Dracosolon]

Makes sense.

I also checked and Civ VI has two wonders of interest: Jebel Barkal (Nubia - technically the mountain itself but it does have monuments) and Kilwa Kisiwani (Swahili - but it's the name of an entire city so renaming it to just the Husuni Kubwa palace might be better). As for other civs:

- Assyria suggestions have sometimes included a Library of Ashurbanipal wonder, which seems like the obvious candidate; there's also the Hanging Gardens that might have been inspired by an Assyrian monument,
- Vietnam has an abundance of historical monuments, I'm not sure which one would be considered the most important to represent,
- The Hittites probably won't have time for much wonder building, and their ruins seem to be mostly known through contemporary names,
- Proposals for the Celts seem to focus on the period from the Ancient to early Medieval eras, which is problematic; Irish or Scottish wonders come too late, Stonehenge too early (and, in addition to not being really Celtic, would work better as a Natural Wonder prehistoric site).

 

[GoneFishingX]

I haven't seen any convo about Vietnam in this thread. What if they had an ability like the jokey one suggested for the Jewish civ in another thread?
Considering they are a classical start they will historically be occupied by the Chinese like 4 times, the mongols (kinda), the French twice, the Japanese, and Americans

Wars of Liberation:
Vietnam requires a complete kill to be eliminated.

From that base there's a bunch of cool ways to expand the power;
1) When a city is conquered spawn contemporary units adjacent to it
2) When you have no cities periodically spawn contemporary military units near them
3) When you have no cities you gain +X espionage per turn
4) Retaking your cities grants a massive science and culture boost
5) You units can enter jungles and have bonus first strikes while within (Merjin's ability)

 

[DC123456789]

There hasn't really been a consensus (or discussion?) on where (and therefore when) the Kushan should spawn, has there? Based purely on historical capitals and criteria, there are a number of possibilities (I tried to include any suggestions already made):

• Dunhuang
• Kucha (or another Tarim Basin city, probably Kashgar or Khotan)
• Balkh
• Kapisa
• Peshawar
• Taxila
• Mathura

I think we can agree that it doesn't make much sense to have the Kushans to spawn in any of the Indian cities - while they were an important and core part of their empire and often used as one of their capitals, it probably makes more sense to have them spawn somewhere else and conquer the area instead.

Whether it makes sense for them to start at Dunhuang or Kucha obviously depends on how they're intended to start and play out. Personally, I think identifying the Kushans as an umbrella East Iranian civ (as opposed to an umbrella Yuezhi civ) means that it doesn't really make a lot of sense to start them in Dunhuang at least, since the pre-migration Yuezhi seem to have little to do with East Iranians and none of the (other) polities the civ covers ever reached that area. Somewhere in the Tarim Basin does make more sense - the area was intermittently controlled by the Kushans and Hepthalites, and Sakas do seem to have settled in the area around when the Kushans rose. In my opinion, I still think it makes sense to just have the Kushans spawn in the core area of the civ, particularly since there's not a huge gap between the earliest proposed start date to when they'd have to spawn for a Bactria/Afghanistan spawn, and unlike the other civs that migrate (Phoenicia and Turks) there aren't any particularly important polities that we really want to represent in their "pre-migration" phase (in contrast to the Phoenician city-states and Gokturk Khaganate, which were definitely prominent).

If the Kushans are going to start out somewhere in the Bactria/Afghanistan region, then Balkh or Kapisa are probably the obvious options. Of those, Balkh seems to have been the Hepthalite capital while Kapisa was one of the Kushan capitals; based on that, I would suggest that Kapisa wins over since the civ should centre around the Kushans more than the Hepthalites. As well, Balkh is uncomfortably close to Samarkand and would crowd it out (I assume we want to continue to spawn as an independent city, which I guess would then flip to the Kushans). The main argument against Kapisa would be that it declined to insignificance after the classical era. However, it's very close - definitely on the same tile at the game's scale - to Kabul, so a solution could be to have the city get renamed at some point (perhaps after Arab or Turkic conquest?) which would allow it to continue to be historically relevant.

 

[Dracosolon]

Quoting the New Map Overview thread as a reference for the core areas of the new civs.

Javanese and Malays:

Spoiler :

Burmese and Vietnamese:

Spoiler :

Kushans

Spoiler :

Swahili:

Spoiler :

Nubians:

Spoiler :

Assyrians and Hittites:

Spoiler :

Celts:

Spoiler :

Swedes:

Spoiler :

Kievan Rus':

Spoiler :

Toltecs:

Spoiler :

 

[brett0007]

Made a rough map of historical areas that may be of relevence to kushans core area

Spoiler map :

 

[Dracosolon]

Might we discuss canonical cities? I'll start with Nubia:

-Kerma/Napata/Dongola: initial spawning tile at the bend of the Nile 2E of the southern oasis and 1S of the southern cotton. Though we might consider Napata a different city and not rename Kerma.
-Meroë: I'd be tempted to place it on the resource 1S2E of Kerma (1N of the Ivory), but for the sake of avoiding that it could instead be 1S1W of that, 1W of the Ivory. If the latter, it could become Khartoum in modern times. Alternatively, Khartoum could be 1S of that.
-I'm not sure which city should get access to the Gold.

 

[Temüjin VIII]

-Meroë: I'd be tempted to place it on the resource 1S2E of Kerma (1N of the Ivory), but for the sake of avoiding that it could instead be 1S1W of that, 1W of the Ivory.

I think the same. Why not have the resource moved instead? I think that would be a good compromise. I also think that the latter tile you referred to should be for Soba instead. To represent Alodia, perhaps?

 

[Leoreth]

None of the resource locations are final, especially anything that is grown and could conceivably be moved without losing accuracy. Will be adjusted to accomodate city locations during the inclusion process.

 

[Krieger-FS]

Might we discuss canonical cities? I'll start with Nubia:

-Kerma/Napata/Dongola: initial spawning tile at the bend of the Nile 2E of the southern oasis and 1S of the southern cotton. Though we might consider Napata a different city and not rename Kerma.
-Meroë: I'd be tempted to place it on the resource 1S2E of Kerma (1N of the Ivory), but for the sake of avoiding that it could instead be 1S1W of that, 1W of the Ivory. If the latter, it could become Khartoum in modern times. Alternatively, Khartoum could be 1S of that.
-I'm not sure which city should get access to the Gold.

When I did the CNM suggestions for Africa on the spreadsheet, I've considered the following as the Nubian canonical cities:

• Kerma on the cotton site and Napata (turning into Dongola during medieval era) 1S of it. Because both cannot coexist, I'd favor the later as spawning tile for them because these cities lasted much longer as Nubian capitals than the former.
• Meroe goes 1N of the ivory.
• Soba, if we go to the most precise location, should be 1E from Khartoum. However, considering its ruins are quite close to the Sudanese capital, I think we can make them share the same tile and make Soba turns into Khartoum with the appropriate era/conqueror/religion.
• Less canonical, but that would be nice to see sometimes, would be Pedeme/Qasr Ibrim (1S of wheat), Pakhoras/Faras (capital of Nobatia, 1W or on marble tile) and Sennar (1S of Khartoum).

 

[Dracosolon]

At the scale the Nile is portrayed I think it'd be fine to have both Kerma/Napata/Dongola on a single tile and the same for Soba/Khartoum. Though of course renaming a city to another close one probably shouldn't be the answer too often.

Core territory shouldn't be too big I think: even if the Nubian UHV includes conquering Egypt, it shouldn't be too stable. A small rectangle covering Kerma and Meroë should suffice, leaving out the Khartoum tile.

 

[Steb]

My trip to Teotihuacan last week was great and made me think some more about my implementation of the Teotihuacano civ. See here for previous discussion. I didn't visit Tula de Allende (the probably Toltec capital), so the ideas below are still skewed towards Teotihuacan rather than the later Toltecs.

My original idea for the UP was The Power of Obsidian: Melee units do not require strategic resources. This was fun but is meaningless with the inclusion of obsidian as a resource on the new map. However, my visit highlighted that obsidian really was a major component of the Teotihuacano economy, so I think the idea should be recycled. I propose:

The Power of Obsidian: Units that are built with obsidian are built 50% faster

where "built with obsidian" means that the unit requires obsidian and the player has access to obsidian. The "+50%" can obviously be adjusted for balance. Alternatively, it could be: Units that are built obsidian get +3 EXP.

Another way to represent obsidian, perhaps more non-military uses and exports of it, could be a UB:

Obsidian Workshop: replaces forge, +1 gold per Obsidian resource

This would incentivize control of multiple Obsidian resources, which seems good. Teotihuacan did achieve its dominance partly through control of obsidian mines.

Or it could be a UU, say "Obsidian Spearman", but that's a little lame. Of course, let's just pick one of these options; obsidian is cool but doesn't represent all of Teotihuacan.

The UB I chose in my implementation, the Temazcal, is somewhat generic (temazcals, or sweat lodges, are common throughout Mesoamerica), but I did see the ruins of a temazcal in Teotihuacan, so it's not inappropriate.

Another idea for the UB could be:

Apartment compound: replaces ??, reduces unhappiness from overpopulation

Apartment compounds aren't unique to Teotihuacan, but it more of them than is usual for a city that old. This would represent Teotihuacan's large urban population and help it reach a high size. We don't usually have dwellings as buildings in the game, though, so it's hard to know what it would replace.

Actually, maybe this concept would work better as a UP?

The Power of Densification: Cottages provide a population point when they become villages and towns

As for the Pyramid of the Sun, it's very impressive in person (though we were not permitted to climb on it), but I still don't have any strong ideas about it. Something around golden ages might still work. I don't think we have any wonder effects that further enhance the effects of golden ages? That could be it.

 

[Dracosolon]

The focus on obsidian seems more like UB business, I'm inclined to think (built faster with Obsidian, a small and bonus for every Obsidian resource?). For the UP, I'm not sure there's gonna be much space for cottages, the territory around the Teotihuacan/Tenochtitlan tile is very resource-rich to begin with. What about a bonus per level?

 

[Steb]

The focus on obsidian seems more like UB business, I'm inclined to think (built faster with Obsidian, a small and bonus for every Obsidian resource?). For the UP, I'm not sure there's gonna be much space for cottages, the territory around the Teotihuacan/Tenochtitlan tile is very resource-rich to begin with. What about a bonus per level?

I think I'd prefer something related to units for obsidian, because the main point of exploiting this resource was warfare, but yeah the UB is a good candidate to represent it. Let's note however that there aren't that many obsidian resources in the first place, so a scaling bonus per resource isn't that interesting (even though that's what I suggested).

Good point on the cottages, but it can be good if the UP leads to some interesting/difficult choices as to what workers should build. Mesoamerica had a lot of independent urban settlements, so building cottages everywhere would actually be fairly accurate.

 

[Publicola]

I think I'd prefer something related to units for obsidian, because the main point of exploiting this resource was warfare, but yeah the UB is a good candidate to represent it. Let's note however that there aren't that many obsidian resources in the first place, so a scaling bonus per resource isn't that interesting (even though that's what I suggested).

Are there any Unique Building replacements for the generic 'Barracks' building? An obsidian-based UB barracks could be a good fit, to tie it into the unit. The effect could be related to the unit (bonus XP, bonus production, either way) or it could be entirely unrelated (bonus gold/culture for obsidian resources).

 

[brett0007]

Are there any Unique Building replacements for the generic 'Barracks' building? An obsidian-based UB barracks could be a good fit, to tie it into the unit. The effect could be related to the unit (bonus XP, bonus production, either way) or it could be entirely unrelated (bonus gold/culture for obsidian resources).

Perhaps a promotion on all melee units trained per every obsidian you have acess to?

 

[Dracosolon]

It doesn't have to be a per resource bonus to begin with, no?

 

[Steb]

As for the Pyramid of the Sun, it's very impressive in person (though we were not permitted to climb on it), but I still don't have any strong ideas about it. Something around golden ages might still work. I don't think we have any wonder effects that further enhance the effects of golden ages? That could be it.

I forgot to add that I'm changing my proposed tech for the Pyramid of the Sun from Masonry to Ceremony, both because I want less collision with the (Egyptian) Pyramids on the Masonry tech, and because I wasn't too impressed with the stonework itself.

Although we don't know what the Pyramid was for, it seems safe to assume it was used for a ceremonial purpose of some sort, and Ceremony somehow doesn't already have an associated wonder. Leverage could also work, if Ceremony ends up having another wonder.

 

[Darnokthemage]

The Goths or Germanic Tribes would make an interesting Civilization, could start roughly when the Romans spawn.
I am thinking they could represent both the Germanic tribes of Germania, and the Goths, Vandals etc that invaded the Roman Empire in the migration period. Might be usable for the Visigoths in Spain and the Ostrogoths in Italy, to fight against the Moors and Franks.

 

[Dracosolon]

The Goths or Germanic Tribes would make an interesting Civilization, could start roughly when the Romans spawn.
I am thinking they could represent both the Germanic tribes of Germania, and the Goths, Vandals etc that invaded the Roman Empire in the migration period. Might be usable for the Visigoths in Spain and the Ostrogoths in Italy, to fight against the Moors and Franks.

Krieger-FS did a proposal for a Gothic civ here:

I know I've promised not make additional civ suggestions, but here goes another. I promise it will be last one

Goths:

Spoiler :

I know that this is a more delicate and problematic proposal, given some historical aspects of the Goths and gameplay concerns. First, the Goths were a semi-nomad people and this condition is hard to represent in game. They also had a relatively short (at least in game terms) trajectory: they appear in historical record by the 3rd century CE and their successors disappear by the time of Moorish invasion of Visigoth Hispania (711). Another issue is that could make things messy and unbalanced in early Medieval Europe. I vaguely remember Leoreth being against moving the French spawn date to represent the Franks for gameplay reasons and that in the original Rhye's mod the early spawn date of France was moved to later given some issues. All things considered, it may be better to leave the Goths (and other Migration Period peoples and entities) represented as barbarians units and indy cities, however I think that their addition, if well thoght and implemented, could be really cool and fill the gap between the classical and medieval civs in Europe.

Spawn/Location: 180 CE/Black Sea coast
Although we have some evidences for early Goth migrations, I think that the spawn date should be around the time that they came to the Black Sea, the late 2nd century CE. Giving the short timespan of the civ (and the need to squeeze many turns as possible to make the civ viable), I suggest 180 CE, the end of Marcommanic Wars, which was one of the first large populational movements in the Migration Period and when several Germanic tribes were pushed South and East. The starting place could be the semi-legendary Árheimar, indentified with Dnieper river and can be autorazed on conquest/collapse, or Theodoro (or Doros), the Crimean Gothic capital that was settled with them in the late 5th century.
Leaders: Cniva, Alaric and Theodoric, the latter two depending where is locate the Goth capital.
Color/Symbol: Black or Grey/ the Visigoth eagle.
Expansion stability: core intially in Western Black Sea coast and Crimea, shifts to Northern Italy and Northern Iberia/Southern Gaul when cities are conquered/founded in these regions. Historical in Dacia and Pannonia, Italy, Iberia, Southern Gaul and few titles in North Africa.

UP: Furor Teutonicus (military units have + 15% strenght when attacking; starts a Golden Age when conquers an enemy capital)

UU1: Gadrauhts (replaces Swordsman, can heal when pillaging).
The name is "soldier" or "militiaman" in Gothic language. Represents the Gothic infantry tradition. The unit capability of healing when pillaging would help Goth players in their conquests (making quicker have full strenght units) and also mimics their historical raids and plundering (the Goths razed the Temple of Artemis, for exemple)
UU2: Druhtiz (replaces Horseman, + 25% strenght against Melee Units).
The name is the Germanic nomenclature for the Latin Comitatus, an armed retinue that was common in the context of Germanic warfare. This practice is a direct source of feudalism. The idea here is to represent the powerful Gothic Cavalry without using a generic "Gothic + Horseman" name.

UB: Hermitage (replaces Monument, bonus culture when the city has a religion and offers a Artist slot) or Hov (replaces Pagan Temple, a small bonus when producing military units)
I confess that is really hard to find an adequate UB for the Goths. After their nomadic phase, the Ostrogothic Kingdom lasted for only few decades and didn't leaved a big architectural legacy (in fact, they mostly tried to restore Roman buildings) besides the Mausoleum of Theodoric. The Visigoths lasted for much longer, however there are very few buildings that still exist and basically all of them were small churches and chapels. The Hermitage of Santa María de Lara is probably one of the most remarkable Visigoth buildings still left, so we can use the hermitage as an UB. The other possibility is the Hov (or Hof), used by other mods and that represents an Germanic pagan sancturay.

UHV:
The Ostrogothic Kingdom: have a capital in Italy and control three cities in Italy, Illyria and Pannonia by 550 CE
The Visigothic Kingdom: have a capital in Iberia or Gaul and four cities in Iberia, France and North Africa by 700 CE.
Gothic Codex: Be the first civ to discover Feudalism and produce 2000 culture by 800 CE.
The UHV are pretty straight foward, representing their invasions on the Roman Empire and establishing new Barbarian Kingdoms, while the third is focused more on the cultural aspects of the Gothic legacy, particularly their contribution to the development of legal systems in post-Roman Europe.

Notes:
* to make the Goths a more viable civ, we could postpone the spawn of the Spanish from 722 (founding of Asturian Kingdom, actually under leadership of a Visigothic noble) to 910 (founding of Kingdom of León), so we have more turns of gameplay.
* if the Goths are really included in the mod, we could consider making the French spawn earlier to represent the Franks and make the early Medieval Europe more interesting.
* most of the art required to make the civ is already done in other mods, so we can borrow some to make this one.

It'd be a pretty short game but it's still a bit longer than the Mongols'.

The ancient Germans on the other hand I don't know what could be done with them, they seem too divided to make a proper civ.

 

[Darnokthemage]

I mean, if one does have them be a more "Germanic tribes" then they could go from the roughly 400BC to 700 AD